ooooo V8 ....

All of us believes in the Trinity.

But I am not sure what you meant by "what" way?

The way we believe?

Haha ... most of us here do attend meetings and joined some small groups for Bible study, prayers etc.

But kinda curious, for a non-Christian, to query about the Trinity ...

Is there something you want to know specifically?

Basically, the Bible, Triune God, Christ (His person), the work of Christ, salvation, and the church

I think most Christian have a basic understanding of the Trinity. Unconsciously, they might have tendencies, which can, sometimes lead to Tritheism. But usually, most believers don't have a problem, just the lack of understanding that's all.

Again, what is your question specifically? Are you looking for someone who disagreed with his or her church??

This post has been edited by pehkay: Oct 30 2014, 12:53 PM

The experience of Jacob

His reaction - cont.

(4) Naming the Place "Bethel"

After pouring oil upon the top of the pillar, Jacob "called the name of that place Bethel" (v. 19). Why did Jacob call the name of that place Bethel, the house of God? As he was anointing the pillar, he was under the anointing of the Spirit. That pillar represented himself, the transformed Jacob. I do not believe that at that time Jacob understood what he was doing. He was not as clear as we are today.

In John 1:51 the Lord Jesus said to Nathanael, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." The title the Son of Man indicates that God no longer is merely God but that He has become a man. This reveals that God is no longer just in the heavens but that He has become a man living on the earth. The ladder has been set up on earth because God has become a man. Before He was incarnated, He could not be called the Son of Man. When the Lord Jesus told Nathanael that he would see the angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man, Nathanael must have realized immediately that this was the fulfillment of Jacob's dream.

Jacob's dream is a revelation of Christ, for Christ as the ladder is the center, the focus, of this dream. Here with this heavenly ladder we have an open heaven, the transformed man, the anointing upon this man, and the building up of the house of God with this man. The church life today is the complete fulfillment of Jacob's dream because the church life is the gate of heaven, the place where the pillar and ladder are, and the place where the angels ascend to heaven bearing good news and descend to earth bringing something heavenly. Bethel is here in the church life. We are today's Bethel. In Genesis 28, both the place and the stone were called Bethel. The stone was not only called Bethel; it was made Bethel. Why was the place called Bethel? Because the Bethel stone was there. The church life is like this. We all need to see this marvelous dream.

That is why in Jacob’s dream there was first the stone as the material and then the house of God, the building. After the oil was poured upon the stone, it became the house. Likewise, when we come to the Lord, we are living stones who are being built up as a spiritual house in the Spirit, by the Spirit, and with the Spirit (1 Pet. 2:5). We are the stones upon whom the Triune God has poured the Holy Spirit as the oil.

Welcome!

You can add Matthew 28:19 ... "... baptizing them into the name[singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

The experience of Jacob

His reaction - cont.

(5) Vowing

When God makes a promise, there is no need for us to make a vow. If I had been Jacob, I would simply have said, "Lord, thank You." But instead of thanking the Lord and praising Him, Jacob vowed that he would take God as his God, make the pillar-stone the house of God, and give God a tenth of all that He would give him on the condition that God would be with him, keep him, give him bread and raiment, and bring him back to his father's house in peace (vv. 20-22). Jacob's vow was conditional. Basically, he made a bargain with God.

Our being in the church life is also conditional. Although we all are happy in the church life, deep within we have a condition and say, "I will remain in the church life and be a part of the church life as long as God gives me bread." Although we may not say this in words, it is nonetheless deep within us. Suppose you lose your job and are unemployed for many months. Besides this, you become quite ill. Will you still sing about the glorious church life? Not only will there be no church life, but probably there will not even be a pillar. Your love for the Lord and for the church is conditional. When Jacob promised to give the tenth to God, it meant that if God did not give anything to him, then he would not give anything to God. Jacob seemed to be saying, "Let's make a deal. If You want something from me, then You must first give me something. If You don't give anything to me, what can I give to You?"

Did Jacob believe in God? Yes. If he did not believe in Him, he would not have spoken about God's being with him. But since he believed in God, why did he still have such a condition in his vow? Because he was human, just like we are today. On the one hand, we believe in God; on the other hand, we have a term. Hardly anyone loves the Lord unconditionally. I have heard many brothers and sisters say that they consecrate themselves absolutely to the Lord. Whenever I hear such testimonies, I ask, "Are you really absolute with the Lord?" If the Holy Spirit were to write an account of your experience, it would probably be exactly the same as Jacob's. My record, for certain, is just the same as his. But there is no need to worry about our living. God will give us the land, the seed, and the blessing, and, in addition to all this, He will take care of our living, providing food, clothing, and everything we need. If we seek first the kingdom of God, the Father will give us whatever we need for our living. This is the dream of Jacob.

The experience of Jacob

God's Sovereignty Seen in Leading Jacob to Meet Rachel and Laban

In chapter twenty-nine of Genesis, Jacob was put into the transformation room, after coming to Laban's home. As we have seen, Isaac, Rebekah, and Esau worked together to force Jacob to escape from his home. Isaac was simple, easygoing, and not disposed to exercise his discernment. This was his disposition and character. Rebekah, however, was clever, ingenious, and manipulative. Being a strong wife and mother, she manipulated the whole family. Esau, the brother, was not very intelligent, but he was physically strong and excericed his strength to kill him. These three people worked together as a team to chase Jacob away, forcing him to leave his loving mother and his father's home. Jacob suffered on his journey by the fact that he "lifted up his voice and wept" when he saw his cousin Rachel (29:11). Jacob had been very lonesome. All that he had experienced prior to coming to Laban's home was simply to bring him into the "room of transformation". In chapter twenty-nine, Jacob was admitted to this room.

God sovereignly brought Jacob to meet Rachel and Laban (29:1-14). After traveling a very long distance, Jacob came to a certain place, supposing it to be the place where his uncle Laban lived. The Bible does not say that Jacob was groping for the right place, moving from one place to another. No, it says that he came to just one place and that he immediately discovered that it was the place where Laban lived. After conversing briefly with some people at the well, Jacob met Rachel, his uncle Laban's daughter.

It was God's sovereignty that Rachel came and not Leah. We know that this was God's sovereign arrangement because in 28:15 God promised Jacob, saying, "Behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of." God was faithful and kept His word, regulating Jacob's steps and bringing him to Laban's dwelling place. Then God brought Rachel to meet Jacob at the well. In 24:13-32, Rebekah and Laban were met by Isaac's servant. Here Rachel and Laban are met by Jacob himself. In this we see God's sovereignty.

We all are God's chosen ones. We must believe that whatever happens to you is of God. Whatever happened to us in the past, or is taking place in the present, is of God. Never be discontented with your circumstances. As one of God's chosen ones, your destiny is in God's hand and your destination is under His direction. Your coming into the church life was not an accident. It was brought about by the hand of the God who has chosen you. Not only are we under God's thumb; we are also in His hand. Whenever you are about to deal with something, you will hold it fast in your hand. Do not be afraid of being under God's thumb, for this is a sign that you are in His hand.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 1 2014, 08:17 AM

That we need to Go.

Go in the Lord's going.

The experience of Jacob

Laban's Cheating in Marrying His Two Daughters to Jacob - part 1

After Jacob told Rachel that he was her father's brother and that he was Rebekah's son, she ran and told her father (29:12). In 29:13 and 14, Laban "ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house." Then Laban said to Jacob, "Surely thou art my bone and my flesh" (29:14). Laban was a politician. After a month, Laban, thinking that Jacob should be useful to him, said, "Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? Tell me, what shall thy wages be?" (29:15). Laban was looking to make use of Jacob and keep him.

No one in the book of Genesis is as smart as Laban. Not even Jacob could outsmart him. Although Jacob was smart, God was smarter and prepared someone who is even smarter than him. In this, we can see that even Laban was not born accidentally; he was born according to God's preparation for the sake of Jacob's transformation. Like a preparation for a surgery, many instruments are needed. In like manner, Laban, who is like "a curved knife", was prepared for Jacob.

Laban started by asking Jacob, "You shouldn't serve me for nothing. Tell me what you want as a wage." Jacob, who loved Rachel, was honest with Laban and said, "I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter" (29:18). Love really makes people blind and foolish. How could someone as crafty as Jacob have been so foolish? Because he loved Rachel and wanted to secure her at any cost. However, Jacob also was quite clever, realizing that if he had proposed a short term of employment, Laban would not have agreed to the deal. Therefore, because he was afraid of losing Rachel, Jacob offered to work for Laban for seven years that he might have her as his wife. It is not a small thing to work for such a long period of time.

On Laban side, he was greedy and robbed his nephew for seven years. The Bible does not say that after the seven years were expired, Laban called Jacob and told him that it was time to marry Rachel. No, it was Jacob who said to Laban, "Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her" (29:21). Jacob seemed to be saying, "Laban, my seven years have been fulfilled. Where is my wife? I have worked for you, and now you must give me my wage."

Laban was very smart. After gathering together all the men of that place and making a feast, he took Leah his daughter and brought her to Jacob, "and he went in unto her" (29:22-23). The feast was during the day, but the marriage was at night. That night Laban beguiled Jacob, giving him his elder daughter Leah in place of Rachel. When Jacob discovered the next morning that Laban had cheated him, he said, "What is this thou hast done unto me? Did not I serve with thee for Rachel? Wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?" (29:25). Jacob did not care for Leah, whose eyes were dull; he loved Rachel who was "beautiful of form and beautiful of appearance" (29:17, Heb.). After Jacob had complained to him, Laban said, "It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Fulfill her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years" (29:26-27). Laban was truly a crooked knife. Nevertheless, Jacob agreed to this arrangement, having been beguiled by Laban to work a total of fourteen years for Rachel, the wife of his preference.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 3 2014, 08:24 AM

The experience of Jacob

Laban's Cheating in Marrying His Two Daughters to Jacob - part 2

We can really see God's sovereign hand in this situation. Jacob loved Rachel, but God sovereignly kept her away from him. While Jacob did not labor one day for Leah, she was given to him as a free gift, as an addition. In this we see that God will let you have your preference, but you must pay the price for it. Your preference will always cost you a great deal, for besides giving it to you, God will give you an addition. God seemed to be saying, "Jacob, do you love Rachel? I will give her to you, but you must pay the price. After you pay this high price, I shall give you an addition. This addition is according to My will."

Rachel was Jacob's wife according to his choice and preference, but Leah was his wife according to God's concept and will. Proof of this is found in 49:31, where we are told that Jacob buried Leah in the cave of Machpelah, the wonderful cave in which Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, and Rebekah were buried. Notice that Leah, not Rachel, was buried there. God is consistent. In His eyes there is one wife for one husband. God did not recognize Rachel as Jacob's wife, because she was Jacob's preference. Leah was Jacob's real wife. In addition to giving Jacob his preference, God taught him many lessons.

In like manner, for example, you, a worker for the Lord, may prefer to have a certain brother as your co-worker. But that co-worker is selected by you according to your preference, not by God according to His will. Our God is great. If you want your preference, God may say, "I shall let you have your preference. But this is a good opportunity for Me to give you some dealings and transformation and to teach you some lessons. Eventually I shall give you as your real co-worker the one whom I have selected and whom you do not like."

God gave Leah to Jacob. Did Jacob love her? Probably not. In 29:31 we are told that "Leah was hated." Firstly, she was hated by Rachel and then she was hated by Jacob who undoubtedly was influenced by Rachel. Some have taught that God never allows us to have our choice. This teaching is inaccurate. God will permit you to have your choice, but along with it, you will have a certain amount of dealing and transformation.

The experience of Jacob

The Competition, Envy, and Wrestling between Jacob's Wives in Bearing Children Pt 1

Jacob's two wives competed in bearing children. This competition put Jacob into the hot oven. 4 women, Laban's 2 daughters and their 2 maids, made life difficult for Jacob. If he had had no preference, he would only have had one wife. Due to his having a preference, he was given four wives. Rachel, the wife of his choice, was not his real wife; his real wife was Leah, the one he did not like. Because of the rivalry between Rachel and Leah, their two maids, Bilhah and Zilpah, were given to Jacob as wives (30:4, 9). These four women were a team playing against Jacob.

As we compare Jacob with Isaac, we see that Isaac was very simple. He had no preference, but accepted whomever and whatever came to him. Thus, the best wife, Rebekah, was given to him. In Isaac's case, there were no complications. But there were many complications in Jacob's case because he had a preference. Nevertheless, Jacob's having his own preference was also under God's sovereignty. Do not despise yourself, saying, "I just hate myself. Why wasn't I born simple?" Rather, you should praise God for your not being simple, saying, "O Lord, thank You for not creating me as a simple person. Praise You, Lord, that I am so complicated." Have you ever thanked and praised God in this way? Do not say, "Oh I'm sorry for the mistakes I made in the past." Even your mistakes are under God's sovereignty. If many of us had never made any mistakes, we would probably not be in the church life today. Praise the Lord that our mistakes have brought us into the church life. Praise God for His sovereignty!

So, not only, the father-in-law, Laban, beguiled Jacob, his son-in-law, he [Jacob] had been given the one he did not like. Here we see God's sovereignty. Then, in addition to Leah and Rachel, two other wives were given to Jacob. Jacob surely did not intend to have four wives. As all the married brothers can testify, one wife is enough. But Jacob no longer had a choice. Four wives were given to him, and there was nothing he could do about it. He was surrounded by them and was no longer free to do what he wanted.

One day, Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, found some mandrakes in the field and gave them to his mother Leah (30:14). According to Song of Songs 7:13, mandrakes are a type of love fruit. When Rachel wanted the mandrakes, Leah said, "Is it a small matter that thou hast taken my husband? And wouldest thou take away my son's mandrakes also?" (30:15). To this Rachel said that Leah might have Jacob that night in exchange for Reuben's mandrakes. When Jacob came from the field that evening, Leah met him and said, "Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes" (30:16). Jacob had lost his freedom. He was like a volleyball being passed from one person to another. Jacob was in such a predicament because his wives were competing with each other in childbearing.

As we read Jacob's story, we must worship God for His being so sovereign, fair, and purposeful. Jacob loved Rachel, not Leah. But the hated Leah bore him four sons (29:31-35), and the loved Rachel was barren (30:1-2). Genesis 29:31 says, "When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren." Although Leah was hated, she found favor in God's eyes. When Leah gave birth to her firstborn, Reuben, whose name means "See a son," she said, "Surely the Lord hath looked upon my affliction" (29:32). Leah's second son was named Simeon, whose name means "Hearing." After giving birth to Simeon, she said, "Because the Lord hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also" (29:33). Leah's third son was named Levi, whose name means "Joined." When Levi was born, Leah exclaimed, "Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons" (29:34). In 29:35 we are told that Leah "conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, "Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing." The name Judah means "Praise." After bearing these four sons, Leah could do nothing except praise the Lord.

Just calm down.

Every translation necessarily bears the understanding of its translators. In bringing the ancient text into a modern language, the translators must first understand the original in terms of the original and, in many cases, interpret the original. Every translation, then, is the record of the translators’ understanding of the original text. So definitely, there is, are "baggages".

2. Refute all? Very unlikely. You have 2000 years of research, translation, interpretation, text criticism etc. There is no way to make up things.

1. I think you don't have to do that. Of course, every translation of the Bible embodies a philosophy about what the Bible is, about the relation of its writers to God, and even about God Himself. The trend today is away from a more literal rendering of the ancient text toward a more literary one; newer translations seek to make the Bible easy to read and understand.

If that is your concern, then stay with the literal translations and only refers to the "easier to read" rendering for some references.

Also you don't have to ask the Spirit for these things.

Christians can be likened to a train. There needs to be the fuel inside as its energizing power. But a train needs to have tracks outside as well. If there is fuel within but no tracks without, the train would not be able to run. Even if it runs, problems will arise. However, if there are only the tracks without, but not the fuel within, the train may be on the right track, but it cannot move. Therefore, for a train to run, and to do so smoothly, there must be the coordination of two aspects: the inner aspect and the outer aspect. Outwardly, there must be the regulation of the tracks; inwardly, there must be the energizing of the fuel.

It is the same with us. We have the Spirit within and the Bible without. Unfortunately, throughout the ages, Christians lean either toward the Spirit within or toward the Bible without. Even today, many people are doing the same. Those leaning toward the Spirit within very much condemn those leaning toward the Bible without, saying to them: “What you are reading is but dead letters. Every day you are just using your mind to study the dead teachings. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Only we are living in the Spirit.” Those tending toward the Bible without would likewise condemn those who stress the Spirit within, saying to them: “What you have is just emotions. There is only excitement and stirring up, but no stability.

The Spirit and the Bible are two sides of one matter. The leading of the Spirit does not contradict the revelation in the Word. Therefore, in studying the Bible, there is again the danger of being one-sided. (Be a bird with 2 wings)

The experience of Jacob

The Competition, Envy, and Wrestling between Jacob's Wives in Bearing Children Pt 2

When Leah saw that Rachel's maid had given birth to two sons, she did the same. Leah gave her maid Zilpah to Jacob as a wife and she bore him two sons—Gad and Asher (30:9-13). Gad means "Fortunate," and Asher means "Happy." When Gad was born, Leah said, "Fortunate!" (30:11, Heb.), and when Asher was born, she said, "Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed" (30:13). In a good sense, Leah was fortunate because she had borne Jacob four sons herself and two more through her maid. She thought that she was happy and that all women would bless her. In Hebrew, the words happy and blessed are of the same root. Thus, a happy person is a blessed person and a blessed person is a happy person. This was Leah's concept. God gave Leah two more sons: Issachar and Zebulun (30:17-20). The name Issachar means "Hire." When he was born, Leah said, "God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband" (30:18). Deep within, Leah must have thought that Issachar was born because she had hired Jacob by giving Reuben's mandrakes to Rachel. This is a further indication of the competition between these women. When Zebulun was born, Leah said, "God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons" (30:20). Leah seemed to be saying, "I don't want Jacob to leave me. I want him to stay with me." In this record we clearly see the competition between Jacob's wives.

At this point, Rachel still had not borne any children of her own. Let us consider the chronology. Jacob went to Laban's home approximately in the year 1760 B.C. and he was married in approximately 1753 B.C. Eight years later, Joseph was born. Under God's sovereign hand, Rachel was barren, not bearing any children until eight years had passed. Then God gave her a son whom she called Joseph, saying, "The Lord shall add to me another son" (30:24). The meaning of the name Joseph—"Adding"—indicates that Rachel wanted God to add another son to her. Her desire was fulfilled six years later with the birth of Benjamin (35:16-20). Delivering Benjamin was a very difficult ordeal for her, costing Rachel her life. Giving birth to Benjamin as she was dying, Rachel "called his name Benoni: but his father called his name Benjamin" (35:18). Benoni means "Son of my sorrow." How meaningful it is that Jacob changed the child's name to Benjamin, which means "The son of the right hand." In the Bible, Benjamin is a type of Christ. Firstly, Christ was Benoni, the Son of sorrow (Isa. 53:3), but eventually He became Benjamin, the Son at the right hand of God (Matt. 26:64).

Rachel gave birth to two sons, but in delivering the second she lost her life. This means that Jacob gained his last son at the cost of his beloved wife. These experiences were like knives which cut Jacob to pieces. Jacob loved Rachel, but she was barren. After giving birth to Joseph, she expected to have a second son. This desire was fulfilled at the cost of her life. Jacob loved Joseph and Benjamin. Among all his twelve sons, they were his two favorites. Although Jacob gained these two sons, God never allowed him to have Rachel, his dear wife, and these two favorite sons at the same time. In the following chapters we shall see how much Jacob suffered over Joseph and Benjamin. In all this, Jacob was constantly under the working of God's sovereign, transforming hand.

How meaningful it is to read these chapters and how helpful it is to see the life they contain. Although these chapters seem quite long, they contain much nourishment for us. The more we consider Jacob's record, the more we realize that our record is exactly the same as his. In God's eyes, Jacob's story is the story of us all. We are today's Jacobs under God's hand, for God is now accomplishing His transforming work in us. Thank Him for His hand and thank Him for His transforming work. Regardless of our situation, environment, and circumstances, we are always under His transforming hand.

Hey tina,

Fasting is a spontaneous expression as man receives a great responsibility before God. At such a time, man will spontaneously fast. The experiences in our human life also substantiate this point. Often when we encounter an important matter (e.g. child hospitalized etc.) in the course of our human living, we become unable to eat. True, some matters can make us happy and cause us to eat more, but other matters may press us to a point that we simply cannot eat. Because the matter which we encounter is so great and the responsibility so heavy, we spontaneously lose our appetite for food. However, when the matter is taken care of and the responsibility discharged, we feel relieved and our appetite returns for normal eating. Likewise, as we receive a great matter from God, we are so burdened within that we fast without purposing to do so.

Yet, we cannot find in the Gospels that the Lord Jesus frequently fasted. So, fasting is NOT a trifling matter. Only the hypocritical Pharisees would say that they fasted twice a week. They considered fasting very common. In the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah severely rebuked such fasting. Fasting is not a religious form, nor a superstitious requirement. The fasting in prayer which God accepts occurs when one receives a commission from God which is very great. Because he loves God and cares so much for His purpose, he is willing to give up his right to legitimate enjoyment. In that instance, such a person would spontaneously fast.

On the one hand, a Christian should not fast lightly, but on the other hand, he should have some experiences of fasting in his or her lifetime. If a Christian has never fasted, there is certainly something wrong with him. Either God has never committed any matter to him, or he has refused God’s commission. If you have never sensed that there is a great responsibility coming from God to you, it simply means that you have never indicated to God with a firm attitude that you want His will and want to stand on His side. You regard the things of God as unimportant. Whether the gospel is preached or not, and whether or not sinners are saved are of no consequence to you. After all, you have already prayed for them. So after your prayer, you are still able to eat and drink in merriment.

Hope this short [there are still other points] help you

In gist, real fasting in prayer is this: because a person loves God, lives before God, and touches God’s heart, the Spirit of God will heavily burden him with one thing that God desires to do. He will become burdened to such an extent that he can neither eat nor drink. Then he will spontaneously fast and go before God to pray.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 8 2014, 08:16 AM

If you are living in the dispensation of the law, then you better do it.

But, when reading the Old testament, we have to see the Person behind the written laws. He is God who dislike mixtures.

Wool comes from the animal life, and linen comes from the plant life. This signifies that God does not want our acts of righteousness, which are symbolized by clothing, to be something from Christ and something from Adam, that is, a mixture of a spiritual and fleshly living. God does not want us to live by such a mixture.

We cannot be justified through faith and then try to become holy by keeping the law. Justification is by the Holy Spirit, and sanctification is also by the Holy Spirit. The way of entry is the way of completion. God only works according to one principle. Why can wool not be woven together with linen? (Deut. 22:11). Wool comes from the shedding of blood, while linen comes from man's planting (c.f. Cain). What is done by God is God's work; what is done by man is man's work. God will not mix His work with man's work.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 12 2014, 09:44 AM

"Even obedience to God" is a working out of Christ's obedience in our obedience (Phil. 2:8, 12) <wink>

depends on how much the Lord measured us lor.

He is the "man of brass"; Brass = judging, testing, examining us