If true = saved

Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth

They are two different thing.

Only when a Christian receives the holy spirit then he can achive those points.

so it is a testimony to God.

I hope that you understand that it is impossible for someone who is not saved to actually do any of the points from 1 to 7

And I never ever implied that a Christian who has anger problem will not have anger problems after he is saved.
But he will recognize that he has an anger problem, pray to God about it and the holy spirit will help him to overcome it over time.

There should be an observable change over time.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 26 2014, 04:39 PM

Yes and I love how God is so graceful in verse 19.

Despite the fact that Corinthians did sin with the temple prostitute, God still used present tense, your body IS a temple.......

That they are still saved. That is the Grace of our God, deeper than the ocean.

That is what I mean when I say to see how God see us, that we are cleansed and made righteous because of what Jesus did.

In that process, we are humbled and the desire for change will come, convicted by the Holy Spirit, perhaps it is enough to stop living like how we used to. God is very patience, I know this is true.

We cannot change ourselves no matter how loud we shout or how much will power we exert. Enforcing that we need to love God, we need to die to self without understanding the other part, will only bring disappointments when we don't understand grace.

So..I hope you don't take this the wrong way.

How can those homosexuals change without receiving the Holy Spirit first?

When you said they're allowed to hear the gospel but not allowed to be disciples....if that is what i understood correctly?

I have already provide the example that is applicable for homosexuals as well.

A "homosexual" may still have homosexual tendancies or thoughts after he is saved, but I do not think he should be acting on those tendancies or thoughts.
And he should pray to God about those tendancies.
I do not think a church should actually accept those who still practise homosexuality as an official member but of course they can provide council.

Yes that is the first step. Allow them to believe in Christ first, Repentance will come in later convicted by the Holy Spirit once they understand that God loves them.

At least if they're welcome in Church, that is half the battle won.

Being a Church member officially is not important IMO.

Preachers have to keep on preaching the Love and Grace of what Jesus did, then Life will be transformed.

Actually to me, the process is conviction by Holy Spirit first. Believe in Christ. Confess and Repent immediately after believing in Christ.

But I always give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to repentance because we do not know when the repentance will bear fruit.
But I do not want to discuss the intricacies at the moment.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 26 2014, 05:26 PM

If you read the whole chapter in context, you will realize that Paul did not tell Christians that they should only repent once they are "convicted by the holy spirit" but they should not do those things as Christians.

That is what I mean by an over emphasis on Grace. You overlook key verses like these and think that you should only repent "once you are convicted"

Over Emphasize? Bro, We need abundance of Grace for reigning in this life. The word Reigning is synonym with victory.
We need more of it, not less of it.

Romans 5:17 - For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Godly Repentance come only through the power of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot change himself. He has no such power.

Fleshly repentance are nothing but the works of Man. He can shout and tells himself to repent 10x but He cannot.

The Holy Spirit only comes in when you agree with his word such as Romans 5:17 as above.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 26 2014, 08:38 PM

It's pretty funny that you can quote your pet verses from romans 5:17 and yet you ignore the next chapter.

Amazing. You only read what you want to read.

Ok. I think I am not going to continue wasting my time.

And you are still continuing from where you start of.

This time, I am serious. You can believe whatever your heart tells you to believe

No Problem.

All in context bro.

Only when you understand chapter 5 then you move on to chapter 6.
You don't enforce chapter 6 without accepting chapter 5.

The key is in here

10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Only when you understand these 2 verse what it means once and for all and in the same way...then only you move to verse 12 which starts with a "therefore" which means verse 10 & 11 is the criteria and it has to do with the Grace of God which is the concluding summary in verse 14.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 26 2014, 09:45 PM

Look here. The way you are talking is as if I am denying grace.

The chapter here is basically a continuation from chapter 5 which states that even though grace is sufficient to cover all sins, you should not abuse it.

Since we are in Christ, and Christ has redeemed us from sin, we should be able to overcome it and not continue from it.

You have a selective reading issue here. Of the entire chapter, you only pick 2 verses that supports your stand.

Do you realize that you have actually slandered me by saying that I have denied grace and continue to support your stance even though I have said that repentance comes from God and not from yourself many times.

Do you even realize that your honesty is now even less then an athiest who would probably get the message after I have repeated many times.

Yeah, when out of the chapter, you only pick out 2 verses and then claim that those 2 verse are the key when the main focus of the chapter was that Christians should overcome and not be in sin because they are in grace. Notice that I ask you specifically to read chapter 6 after chapter 5 because chapter 5 talks about grace but chapter 6 talks about how Christian should respond to that grace.

But then you have a selective reading problem.

Now I understand why Athiest and people from other religions are laughing at us. You never even realize the absurdity that a Christian who never shown any changes(overcome sin) is really not a testimony to God. You think testimony only comes from a single experience in your life. No. The greatest testimony is when you actually changed and that your change is observable. Why should other people actually believe in Christianity if a Christian is the same as a non Christian and have the same sin problem even though Christianity makes the claim that Christ has abolished sin in us. You can tell a non believer a thousand times that Christ has abolished sin in you but when the non believer does not see any change in you, I would think he would have the right to MOCK your religion which is most likely not the same religion that I believe in because the Christianity that I believe in states that we should overcome sin because Christ has already died for us AND we have the holy spirit in us and sin has no more power in us.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 27 2014, 12:57 PM

Well you said, over emphasizing on grace.
The Bible says we need abundance of grace.

Abundance is abundance, how do you want to call it?

Well if you agree that repentance comes from God then what I said about repentance being convicted by the Holy Spirit is correct.

Honesty less than an Atheist?
Come to think of it, I don't think I've switch topic to avoid answering you. In fact I did answer you but you seem to be offended everytime.
Tell me which part is not answered? Point 2 or 3 of your questions and I'll prove to you, I was replying in kind, just that you may not understand what I mean.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 27 2014, 02:37 PM

Now I see the problem. You are in your own world.
You think that just because I said over emphasizing, I am implying against the "abundance of grace".

You think that the bible is just all about grace and love, but you neglect to see that scripture is much more then that. Every element of scripture is connected and if you fail to look at the other aspects of the bible, you will fail to see the full picture. Yes grace is important but if you neglect the other elements, you will not understand what grace means in it's full context.

And no. The bible did not say that we need an abundance of grace. We are already in an abundance of grace in Christ. You see, because of your theology, you cannot even read verse that you pointed out clearly any more. You see if you read Romans 5:17 properly, you will realize that we are in grace because of Christ Sacrifice for us. But then for you, you probably have a different definition of grace anyway. In fact what the bible says is that we are IN grace. Which is actually pretty obvious if you read Romans 6 properly. So Please. Dun say that I did not read in context when you cannot even read a single sentence properly.

You see, my definition of grace is God's forgiveness of our sins through Christ death. And because of this grace, we are able to now share the blessings of heaven and actually have fellowship with God. But your definition of grace is probably related to the blessings of God. In other words, the more grace you have, the more blessings you have which is actually related to the prosperity gospel actually. You probably feel that the more you "tithe" the more grace you get. Which to me is blasphemy.

There is no problem with you saying that repentance comes from being convicted by the holy spirit. The problem is when you start talking about fleshy repentance. I have already stated that repentance comes from god. So by talking about fleshy repentance, you are actually implying that I believe in fleshy repentance. I guess you have a special way of actually slandering people without realizing it. Now I wonder what spirit is this.

Yes. You did not switch topics. You merely diverted it to something that is actually not relevant. This is actually your speciality. In fact, I have already shown you how you have actually misrepresented me and you did not even "realize" it.

You see, if you have seriously read Romans chapter 6 without any bias at all, you would have known what I am talking about but because you are so blinded by your own theology, you just pick verses that supports your own theology.

And yes, we will not be in agreement in anything because I guess our "gospels" are different. And you will continue slandering me anyway discreetly which you are actually pretty good at I admit.

And oh, I realize one thing. Are you actually saying that only I accept your version of the bible that I can have the holy spirit. Aren't all Christians supposed to have the holy spirit? Aren't having the holy spirit a precursor to believing in Christ? You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

This post has been edited by sylar111: Jun 27 2014, 08:37 PM

Did Christ say Repent & Believe & Fully understand the scripture to be saved?

He said Repent & Believe <--- Have you then repented of your sins? Do you believe that Jesus Christ in the only way? If yes, then you are saved.

But you are now slave to righteousness, if you take sin lightly and fail to repent of the sins in your life and continue to live in them, than you are just fooling yourself.

To answer your question... Not all man are given the ability to understand all portion of scriptures, even apostle Peter says some stuff taught by the apostle Paul are hard to understand. But as much as you can, spend time reading the scriptures, ask questions, so that you will grow in grace & knowledge. So that you are able to give a defense for your faith.

ok sylar, you both are correct just that the interpretation of it is different, and your theology ideas and his are on a different base

Bro, You taking the Doctrine of Justification beyond what it is. Remember after our Regeneration & Conversion, we are Justified, That what you're talking about here. However, after Justification (which happens only once the person is converted), you are now being sanctify, or better know as the Doctrine of Sanctification.

Sanctification is both the work of Man & The Holy Spirit. Not to justify ourselves to God, Christ has done that and it is finished. Sanctification is a process where God molds you to be more and more like Him. Romans 6 is where Paul begins to talk about Sanctification.

PS: The summary is not verses 14, he continues his arguments from Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification from Romans 6:15 onwards.

When you say that the Bible did not say we need abundance of grace, it means we are in grace that is not true. You have to receive Grace first in order to be IN Grace. That is the meaning in chapter 5. Look at the verse again.

Romans 5:17 (NIV) - For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Do you see the word, "how much more"? It would suffice to say, Those who receive, but yet the word there how much more means it is more (extra) for those who receive the abundance. Do you see bold part? "those who receive" which means the flip side is also true, there can be, those who don't.

Chapter 6 is the proceeding, taking one step further explaining, that Christ died to Sin once and for all and in Chapter 6, God tells us, IN THE SAME MANNER like Christ consider that you're dead to Sin once and for all too. In the Greek the word there, in the same manner is like an accounting equation, IN THE EXACT EQUATION. How Christ died to sin, you too consider the same. Question. What is the meaning died to Sin once and for all? The answer is found in Romans 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

The Key word here is once and for all, When Christ died, God absolved all judgement against Sin in his body and there is no more judgement. this is the meaning, once and for all. If there still is judgement, Christ cannot be resurrected back to life because the penalty of sin has not been dealt with completely. So in the same manner we are to consider there is no more judgement of sin as believers, therefore don't let sin rule our lives because it has been dealt with.


So does every Christians definition. God forgiveness is God's grace and love. We all know that.
I don't see what is the difference, the blessings of Heaven comes from our Heavenly Father who is God. So Heavens blessings is God's Blessing.
Why are you trying to confuse the same thing here?

Prosperity Gospel is blasphemy? Prosperity is not the Gospel, but God loves to prosper his people. And I need to stop you before you put this word into my mouth, No it's only about money, since you did mention prosperity Gospel, I'm familiar with the term. God's prosperity encompasses everything.

When Jesus multiplied 5 loaves and 2 fishes, He gave more than they could eat, 12 basketful EXTRA to me that is prosperity. When Jesus motion for peter to throw his net at the right side of the boat, He caught so much fishes, the net broke. To me that is God prospering Peter. When God blessed Abraham or Solomon, He gave them so much wealth, they were rich, again to me, that is God prospering his people. Still not convinced?

Deuteronomy 8:18
But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your ancestors, as it is today. (see the word today?)

Psalm 35:27 (KJV) - Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

Proverbs 10:22 (KJV) - The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

And about tithing. God is the one who promise to bless us when we tithe. You have problem with that, you can take it up with God. Why complain to me? Hmm?

Malachi 3:10 - Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.


So your gripe is about this? Now I understand what you're so upset about. Geez, can't you just say it straight away?
I thought, You're the one who said this about repentance below? How do you want people to understand you when you keep on emphasising like it isn't right to repent when only convicted by the Holy Spirit? What are trying to imply? Keep on repenting on your own accord? Isn't this is what you said below? For one moment you said something like below and the in the next post, you agreed that repentance only comes from God. Are you trying to confuse me or what?

If I did not switch topic, I didn't switch topic. No need to say it's not relevant. It is relevant. The problem is, you only look at one side of the argument, I'm showing you the bigger picture. For example, you said about is it possible for an unrepentant homosexual to be a believer at the same time. I answered in a way to let you know, unless you allow that homosexual to accept God, He has no power to change himself. It is still talking about repentance it is still talking about Salvation of that person and if you understood, you would have known the way I answer you means Yes He can. Was it really difficult to comprehend by the way I teach hmmm?


Our Gospel is the same. It's just that maybe you don't believe God is more Gracious and more loving than you see him to be. Can be seen when you think Grace is over emphasize. No I didn't slander you, problem is, you seem to take everything like I have some sort of secret motive when there is none.
You're the one who's creating the hype here, not me.

And here is the hype I'm talking about. How in the world did I led to you believe that I said accept my version, then only you have the Holy Spirit?
You are really amazing.

Your sense of denial is really amazing. You actually said that the holy spirit can come in only if I "understood" that Romans 5:17 properly. You can twist all you want but seriously, we all know what you actually meant. Perhaps your understanding of the holy spirit is different from mine. But let's be real here. Opps I forgot. You can actually continue sinning because after all, you do not treat sin seriously right?

You see, your definition of understanding is basically accepting what you say. You make the assumption that if I do not accept what you say, I do not understand. But then I do not even consider the Gospel you are believing in the same as what I am believing in.

I think your logical abilities are seriously lacking to be debating with me actually. Or you are most likely in denial.

Anyway I have said enough. I think most people and I mean even the non Christian who could think will probably not take you seriously from now on. I guess those who lack discernment are probably going to continue to be deceived.

I understand what you're saying and I agree.

Only I differ in this area. Colossians explains, we are already made complete in Christ, meaning God sees us righteous and Holy even though while our actions are not yet perfected.

Colossians 2:9-10
…9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

The word there "made" means have been, it is not seeming or like.

The one who changes us and Sanctify is done by God alone, our work as Man is just to agree with Him meaning believe.

Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 5: 23-24 - 23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.


We are changed by beholding God, meaning to say how much we accept how God sees us and how much we believe in his word, effects our transformation.

2 Corinthians 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Why I don't believe that Sanctification falls on our part because I've come to understand the meaning of strength and weakness based on 2 Corinthians 12:9, Either we do it or let God do it. There's no partiality. Paul explains it like this.

2 Corinthians 12:9 -
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Believe me, I'm on the side of wanting change and sanctification but I believe it only happens as how scripture warrants it.

And these days I am seeing change even on myself when I rest in God, accepting his word that declared I've been made complete in Christ even though my actions is still far from perfect. Before this, I struggled everyday, prayed everyday but problem is I reasoned in the my mind I'm not complete yet, still needed sanctification , when I didn't agree with what God said, that became the problem that resisted change on my side.







This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 28 2014, 02:22 AM