No I didn't said those (bold part).

I would like you to show me where? Go ahead. Quote me.

Yet 2 Corinthians 12:9 Paul is not speaking about sanctification, you know this. Read the beginning of verse 1 up to verse 10. The context is not even talking about sanctification. But rather it is an argument that Paul put forth, for those questioning his apostleship and authority and. Read verse 11 & 12. The thorn is the flesh was given to for God's purposes, to show his power, that God is with Paul, that where his authority & apostleship comes from.

Now,

Let see what Paul himself has to say about your argument:

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

Let see what Peter has to say about your argument:

1 Peter 1:16

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.

Let see what Paul has to say about your argument again:

1 Corinthians 11:1

11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Do you want also then to include Paul's argument in Ephesians 4:17-5:21?

Sanctification is our work, yet God's! The term theologians normally use is "Synergistic"

God calls us to be holy, commands us to throw off sinful ways, and the directions to be like Christ. That is our work. Yet God promise that He himself is at work in us, and that He will strengthen and assist us. (Philippians 2:13, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 4:16, 1 Peter 1:2)

Sanctification is a process, we are at war with sin. But the entire sanctification will not be ours until our bodies are changed into the likeness of Christ's glorious body at his return (Philippians 3:21, 1 John 3:21, Romans 7:24)

Sanctification is also the supreme test that our conversion is genuine, and without growing in holiness nobody will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

Hebrews 12:12-17

12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Again, like I said before, you are taking the Doctrine of Justification and applying it everything in scriptures,hence you are bulldozing the Doctrine of Sanctification in the bible by saying it's all God's work not man's. But the Bible references as I quoted for you is a prove beyond all doubt that Sanctification is both our work, yet God's.

Whether you believe it, teach it, hold to it or not. That is the biblical doctrine taught by the apostles. "I will not let anyone says that now that you are justified, you are free to live as you want". We are now slaves to Christ, a slave is never free to do what he wants, but rather what His master wants.

Study the scriptures as it is, not by what's doctrine can I fit into this passages. Doctrines are derived from the Scriptures, not the other way around.

I will end my case here.

This post has been edited by Piros: Jun 28 2014, 12:22 PM

Just one word.
Amazing

Read the preceding verse bro,
Unless God is the one who does the strengthening part...you get the idea.

1 Thessalonians 3:11-13

11 Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus clear the way for us to come to you. 12 May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you. 13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.



Look at verse 13.



Ephesians 3

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every familya in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

HIS Power Bro.

The principal is always the same.

Read Hebrews 10 bro.

God always impart his Grace first, then he ask us to Live a Holy Life.

For example

Hebrews 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We all know that we are still not perfected yet but here God already declare us Holy once and for all.

Our part is to receive God's grace then walk as He commanded. He does the work, then ONLY we can.

This is the principal.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 28 2014, 01:06 PM

I think I did request (twice) that you show me where did I even said what you claim.

Your refusal to show or perhaps you couldn't find it, now that is amazing indeed.

Because there isn't any.

Prove me wrong. If you say I'm denial then it shouldn't that tough to point it out.

I can't follow this convo anymore @_@

Again, like I said before and I will say it again, you are taking the Doctrine of Justification and applying it everything in scriptures,hence you are bulldozing the Doctrine of Sanctification in the bible by saying it's all God's work not man's. But the Bible references as I quoted for you is a prove beyond all doubt that Sanctification is both our work, yet God's.

Do not take a doctrine and try to fit it into the scriptures, rather doctrines are derived from the scriptures.

How's thing? The discussion [I wasn't following closely] has come to be Piros believing that unknown is making monergistic statement on on-going salvation [sanctification] instead of synergistic.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jun 28 2014, 05:13 PM

I don't know which one to believe anymore too @_@

You mean either monergistic or synergistic?

Ya

What do you think, is there Biblical basis for both? Does your Christian experiences coincide with either one or both ?

I will admit this truth is not so simple and will depends very much on your perspective and understanding on what is really grace?

Bro Piros,

I've also showed you the preceding verses that it is not. I am reading scripture. This is not my words.

The Bible is very consistent. God first gives you the grace, sanctify you then there's usually the word "therefore" be holy, avoid sin, yada yada.

Whenever there's a "therefore" in a verse, you read the preceding verses to understand in totality.

Man has no ability to sanctify himself. You know that.

The one who does the sanctification process is God alone, our role is just to walk in it.

The principal is the same in all the books. God says that you have been sanctified, made holy, God working in you, etc etc....THEREFORE do not give in to sin, do not this and that.

We are changed by the renewal of our mind we are not changed by our works whether it's sanctification or whatever.

The renewal of our mind is to consistently agree with God's word that WE ARE ALREADY made Holy And Righteous.

THAT IS THE BATTLE and I can tell you it's not easy.

Remember the verse that says mighty in pulling down strongholds, very imagination....all this is indication of mind renewal processes.

The Bible also made it very very clearly, WE ARE TRANSFORMED by the renewal of our mind. Based on THAT alone, it defeats the idea that we need to do the sanctification work. Our role is to believe and walk in what God has already given us.

Our battle is not with Sin. Jesus already dealt with that. Our Battle is this.

The Righteous shall live by Faith. Meaning We need to live with the right type of believe. Everything hangs on how we believe (Faith). When you have the right type of Faith, the Fruits of the Holy Spirit is the result not works of the Holy Spirit. Fruits. The one who does the pruning, the watering, the feeding is God the Father (Abiding in the vine). The Sanctification is from Him.

Here is another food for thought.

Jesus said. I AM the vine YOU ARE the branch.

It didn't say YOU TRY TO BE the branch or Struggle to be the branch or SANCTIFY yourself to be a branch.

GOD declared YOU ARE the Branch. (Already is). Now either you agree with that or you look it from the point you need to try to be because you know you still have flaws. If you think you need to, then you're reasoning based on what you see of yourself not what the scripture says. This is where most Christians missed it. The Bible says WE ARE Already MADE complete in Christ and yet many time we don't agree because we look at ourselves and our life and say our flaws doesn't match what the Bible say therefore it must mean that we still need to struggle.

You know what is the problem? We keep looking at ourselves WHEN the Bible says to KEEP ON LOOKING TO JESUS as the author and the FINISHER of our Faith.

In of ourselves we have no power to change, no matter how hard you try. Either we let God and God alone do it or we do it. There's no in between. (Romans 11:6)

Last one. Remember you quoted this?

Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

See the early part of the verse " you have been set free" HAVE BEEN. God did that part. He sanctified you "HAVE BEEN". THEN the proceeding verse becomes slaves to righteousness.

All that in the context God is the one who sanctify.

I really pray that the Holy Spirit help you to see this.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 28 2014, 06:48 PM

Aiyo ini I can't answer at all >_< Really tak ada.

Like that ah? You really want to enter this "rabbit hole"?

If yes, I can start a bit of background on major doctrines of grace from the three great faith traditions of the Christian church—Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.



....


(Maybe not respond tonight <---- lazy)

Erm, no need.

Thank God for saving me, i cheated death few hours earlier in an small accident involving my bicycle and a car...........the car owner refused to pay for my medical fees nvm, somore say it's my fault

Wah close shave. Sad to hear you bumped into someone so irresponsible

i lost money nvm i can claim insurance as long i am in 1 piece, need to take extra caution next time when crossing the road

I don't think you cheated death.

God kept death at bay probably He got your back and He has something in store for you in this life.