Concepts such as impedance are taught to first semester students. If impedance is unknown, then you have no business denying what has been well proven for over 100 years. Why impedance is significant was discussed repeatedly.

Why grounds are different was explained many times; using multiple reasons. Impedance is one. Since this is new, then do what was (should have been) taught in school. Something this new requires multiple rereads. Go back and read those many paragraphs that apparently you ignored. Then post what you understand. Followed by where you become confused. It was explained repeatedly. But you have to do the work - first read it.

Electricity is always different at both ends of every wire. How that difference is relevant was explained multiple times - sometimes with numbers. Electrical concepts make obvious that various grounds are electrically different. A repeatedly posted number (you could not miss it) even defines this: 'less than 3 meters'.

This post has been edited by westom: Jun 4 2014, 12:46 PM

Well folks, this is where democracy lies. Westom can present a whole 100 volumes on why we don't need SPD. The choice is clear,

-Place your trust in a 'professor' who has no practical experience, just a bunch of technical jargon to confuse folks. Feel good that you can save the $$$ needed for SPD.

- Install SPD & be rest assured that you're 99.5% protected. Remaining 0.5% is considered 'An act of God'. A good example will be like buying a medical insurance/ Buy it when you don't need it yet. Buying it only when you need it, well, its just too late....

Helpful would be to read what was posted rather than read what your emotions want to see. Clearly SPDs were repeatedly recommended. But only effective ones from more responsible manufacturers.

How do you write when you cannot read?

page 18 and 19, IEEE Guide for Surge Protection of Equipment

that rating is for the service entrance SPD mounted inside your distribution box. not the recommended rating for the equipment level plug point protector as those are rated lower.

later some dumb guy come in and use the rating to discredit cal-lab and those cheap belkin.
erm wait. erm let me see.
erm.. (looking at the DB)
erm.. (looking at the tnb pole)

erm... NONE. wait but what?
but but westom said they tnb already installed for mine.

he's right, so i'm obviously wrong. maybe i'm blind since i can't find it. yes, that must be it.

bwahahaha. professor.
more like an art teacher trying to understand the concept of electricity and be all technicaly.

some of us here actually has an EE background.

I didn't read the whole thing. Theory vs pratical bla bla bla...

Anyway just install the damn surge protector if you think it protect.

I've been dealing and solving this surge for more than 10yrs with surge protector. Over some sensitive old electronic equipment. It still have bad news and good news even after install.

Please read what is posted. Nobody said tnb installed a protector. Again you read only what you want to believe. An EE need not reread those paragraphs. Since concepts were taught to every first year EE. You do not even understand ground differences. This layman simple concept identifies which protectors protect from destructive surges.

Obvious was what tnb installed. With insufficient EE knowledge, you even confused a protector and protection. And did not even know what impedance is. Any first year EE would know that.

You were asked to reread what you ignored. Define what you understood. And then ask about concepts that confused you. You refused to even do that. It would expose no EE training. So you attack the messenger. Any EE would know why various grounds are electrically different. Would know why different voltages can exist on the same wire. And would immediately grasp why a 'whole house' solution is routine in every structure that cannot have damage. Instead, your disparaging remarks now become cheapshots.

A properly earthed 'whole house' solution is required with or without adjacent protectors. Since protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Fundamental to any reader who asked for effective protection.

Homeowners should also inspect their AC utility installed protection (as described in an earlier post). Do not let naysayers confuse you with cheapshot attacks. And claims devoid of basic EE knowledge (ie no numbers). A protector connected within meters to single point earth ground is the only solution found in every structure that cannot have damage. This best solution is also a least expensive solution.

Westom, I do appreciate the info you have shared and I'm totally agree with your comments. Just that not many people understand your technical languages.

For the sake of layman readers, may I help you to summarize:

High rating SPD (only those installed in the DB) + good earth (your so called "3 meters rule" or I call it <5ohm) = 99.5% protected.

Agree?

That summary does not say what to do. Only says effective protection is about something completely different. Provides nothing for a consumer to act upon. Therefore may remain deceptive.

For example: less than 5 ohms may be insufficient. A 'less than 3 meter' rule is not about low resistance. Protection is about low impedance. That may appear complex, But is so layman simple as to be understood even 100 years ago. Is it too complex because no magic box was recommended? Consumers who all but want to be scammed do not want to know why. They want a magic box recommendation. No magic box will disuss impedance. Meanwhile impedance and resistance are somehow confused. An example that what really matters still remains so new to others. But those reasons why remain necessary.

Some of the layman simple rules. A properly sized protector should be at least 50,000 amps. Every incoming wire from every utility cable must connect low impedance via a protector or directly via a hardwire. That ground must be a single point earth ground. All four words have significance. These rules become simpler once 'reasons why' expose other popular fables. Since effective protection is always about where hudnreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Another simple rule that defines protection.

Another concept is summarized. Size a protector so as to remain functional after many surges. Install earth ground to make the 'system' effective during each surge. Protector is selected for its life expectancy. Earthing defines protection during each surge.

Bwahaha. The amount of bull$hit and assumptions in this thread is amusing.

Professor likes to make it complicated......

As a layman I couldn't understand above sentence.

Simple question : what should I tell my electrician to install ?

This post has been edited by easywin3: Jun 15 2018, 09:17 AM

Hi Ozak,

Based on your past experience with surge protector, does it really work? I am thinking of "indoor - surge protection device" + "lightning conductor at rooftop and full earthing system"...what do you think?

Thanks in advance!

Any layman can read specification numbers. A transient that is hundreds or thousand joules is routinely made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances. How many joules does that "indoor - surge protection device" claim to 'block' or 'absorb'? A transient that will not damage an appliance can also destroy that indoor device. Sometimes even create fires. One need only read that spec number.

Why would anyone spend so much money on such as tiny (near zero joule) device? Hearsay, advertising, wild speculation, and feelings somehow justify a recommendation.

Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Only informed consumers read many paragraphs to learn what works and why. Any recommendation (for anything) that does not say why and is not tempered by numbers is often a scam.

That is about protection of appliances inside a structure. A lightning strike many blocks down the street is a direct strike incoming to all household appliances. Only a properly earthed 'whole house' solution protects from typically destructive transients.

Protection of the structure means something completely different. "lightning conductor at rooftop and full earthing system". Properly earthed lightning rods do nothing to protect appliances. And properly earthed 'whole house' protection does nothing to protect the structure.

What do both always required to be effective? Earth ground. Earth ground makes a lightning rod effective. Earth ground means a 'whole house' protector is effective. Ben Franklin demonstrated this over 250 years ago. And yet so many still do not get it. Earth ground is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector or a lightning rod is only as effective as its earth ground.

No "indoor - surge protection device" has an earth ground connection, will not even discuss it, and does not claim to effectively protect any appliance. But it sure does have an obscene profit margin that pays for a massive advertising program. So it must be better - spec numbers be damned. They said it is better; so it must be better.

This post has been edited by westom: Apr 5 2019, 05:08 AM

Over dinner with a friend, he told me of lightning strike on lamp post next to him whilst being stationary in a crawl at one portion of the KESAS E37 expressway.

Naturally the shock from the instantaneous thunder report up close after the lightning strike was quite frightful.

The lamp post fried and smoking. I wonder what kind of protection is used for such equipment. Can't imagine a strike taking out the whole stretch of lamps along the highway or what would have happened if say there is a bus stop with ppl taking shelter underneath next to that lamp post.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Apr 5 2019, 02:37 PM

If there is a electric cable post outside your house that is supposed to conduct lightning. There should be a small lightning catcher at the top which is connected to the pole support cable. The cable carries the lightning into the ground at the anchor point. Assuming its done properly.

You can follow Westom advise. But you have to be rocket science to understand what he said.

Do not put a "lightning conductor at rooftop". You will extract the lightning strike the rod. Will KFC all your electrical appliances.

Only 3 thing can do.

The important is grounding rod. Plung another grounding rod at the garden side. As deep as possible. Pull the ground wire to the DB. Than another grounding rod behind the house. If you extend the kicthen already, plung it at outside the kitchen. Pull the wire to the nearest wall socket point. Or pull up to the upper floor nearest wall socket. The important point is, have a full grounding for wall socket that too far to be protected.

2nd, change the RCCB in the db box to better wan. Like ABB model FH202 AC-63/0.1 is good.

3rd Install a SPD in the DB. Wire it after RCCB. ABB OVR T2-1N-40-275 P is good.

With all this done, the tripping will reduce alot. My experiene so far like 1-2 trip peryrs from more than a dozen trip.

But without a good grounding, all this device will not work. So pay attention to the grounding 1st.

Won't cost you much. My total spend with DIY is about RM500.

Thanks for the details advise, although I am not really 100% understand.

Thanks Ozak.

My house installed grounding rod...about 10-12 feet below the ground, it was near the DB area in my last renovation in 2015. But not sure how good is the grounding reading? How can we check ourself?

I received a quote to install a SPD (class 1) and grounding check at about RM1k, SPD (class 2) + groundimg check at around RM500.

I wish I can do DIY like you...cost saving

This post has been edited by clickNsnap: Apr 5 2019, 03:22 PM

Anyone who understands what Ben Franklin did can understand what works. The electric current goes from a cloud (ie 3 kilometers up) to earth borne charges (ie 4 kilometers distant). Why is that complicated? Either that electric current makes that 7 kilometer connection inside a building. Or it makes the same connection outside via that earth ground rod. It was always that layman simple - as first explained in primary school science.

Now, how good is that connection. If lightning wants to use the building, then a lightning rod connects it to earth on a path that remains outside the structure. No damage to a structure.

If lightning wants to use appliances inside a building, then a 'whole house' protector connects it to earth on a path that remains outside the structure. No damage to appliances. Why is that so hard?

If a protector's earth ground is not single point earth ground, then one has invited lightning to be inside - destructively via appliances. Multiple earth grounds (ie plung another grounding rod at the garden side) makes appliance damage likely. A surge, incoming on AC utility wires will use the other ground rod to connect to distant earthborne charges. That connection will be destructively through appliances.

No protector does protection. Without a good grounding in earth, the device will not work; will not be effective. Because no protector does protection. This is very hard for people educated by advertising. A plug-in protector does not have that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth. So it does significantly less or no effective protection. And can even make appliance damage easier. A protector must connect low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) to single point earth ground. To the one and only earth ground electrode that all incoming utility cables connect to.

If any incoming utility cable does not first connect to that same earth ground (ie directly or via a protector), then appliance protection is compromised.

Lightning rods never make lightning strikes more likely. That has always been an urban myth promoted by scammers who promote useless products such as ESE devices. Lightning rods are always implemented everywhere that lightning damage cannot harm a building. That direct strike is going to happen with or without that lightning rod. A building owner decides to let it strike the building or to connect to earth harmlessly via a lightning rod. Only ESE scams and other outright lies deny what lightning rods have done successfully for over 250 years. Connect the inevitable direct lightning strike to earthborne charges on a path that is not destructive.

If any of this is complex, then 1) it is new, and 2) one has not yet read it at least three times. Even a genius never understand something new until after, at least, three rereads. It may take more rereads if one was educated by lies from plug-in protectors, ESE manufacturers, advertising, wild speculation, or hearsay.

Why do we teach what Ben Franklin demonstrated in primary school science? Concepts of lightning protection have alwaus been that simple. However, if educated by lies (ie plug-in protectors), then comprehension is harder. Unlearning those lies (from plug-in protectors or ESE manufacturers) makes learning challenging.

Protection is always about the path a current will take from cloud to earthborne charges. Only a human makes that decision - to either have damage or to connect that current on a path that causes no damage. We know this for both lightning rods and for protectors. Both are only as effective as its earth ground electrode. Facilities that cannot have damage routinely earth hardwire connections or protectors on a low impedance (ie hardwire must not be inside metallic conduit) path to single point earth ground. Anything that does not connect that transient low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground will never answer the relevant question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? It is only hard when one has been scammed by advertising and myths that promote scams (ie plug-in protectors).

Wall 'power point' safety ground is not, cannot be, and never will be earth ground. Difficult for many to grasp. That wall receptacle safety ground is not and will never be an earth ground. Better is even more electrodes at the same common point. Protectors must have a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground. Otherwise a protector does nothing useful.

How far is the connection from each utility cable to that electrode - either by hardwire or via a protector. If more than 3 meters, then it does human protection and compromises appliance protection.

Does every wire inside every incoming cable connect to that one earth ground rod? If not, then appliance protection has been compromised. An AC utility demonstrates these concepts in good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-educatio...ality/tech-tips
then select Tech Tip 8.

One electrode is usually sufficient. But that is dependent on the soil and other geological features. For example, sand is a poor conductor. So more electrodes are necessary.

Repeated because it is that critical. Each connection to that electrode must be low impedance. Ie less than 3 meters, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, no sharp bends, separated from other non-grounding conductors. Inspection goes a long way into learning what is sufficient.

This post has been edited by westom: Apr 5 2019, 09:07 PM

Thanks for the info.

I think my house's wires are connected to the DB with ELCB and attached to one earth rod, the rod is about 3-4 meters from the DB.

I am arranging an electrician to install a SPD in the DB, check the quality of earth grounding next week, hope the appointed electrician is well knowledgeable on the power surge protection.

This post has been edited by clickNsnap: Apr 5 2019, 11:57 PM