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 Lightning protection, Lightning proctection in house

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ozak
post May 28 2014, 09:21 AM

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QUOTE(silent_killer @ May 28 2014, 03:53 AM)
i would recommend http://tokai.com.my/solutions/esp.html they r the first company in Malaysia that started lightning & earthing industry. Developers nowadays want to maximise profit and save cost, so lightning protection installed by developers is very minimum.
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I don't see any developer in here that have install surge protector for your house. Even minimum level. Or an expensive bangle.
ozak
post May 28 2014, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ May 28 2014, 09:41 AM)
Do you think this product will help? I heard any products also can't help when heavy lightning comes.
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Yes. it help. That is already few experience that my belkin surge protector did do the job. While also have bad experience which I didn't use the surge protector.

Majority of the lightning is not direct strike to your house. It come from the line. Any line that have voltage running currently during strike.
ozak
post May 28 2014, 02:47 PM

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QUOTE(liawei @ May 28 2014, 02:21 PM)
99% of houses in Malaysia don't have SPD. Developer will not add such additional cost unless it's an RM2mil and above property then slightly higher chance it will have the SPD.

Tokxx is big company working with developers, and expect big price from them as residential is not their key focus.
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I have seen those new banglo which cost RM2-3mil at some new housing area. Those house is at the very very high percentage of kena lightning area. But didn't see any SPD in the house. Probably hide somewhere.

The developer only setup few lightning pole with like a metal ball ontop the pole. Place at some house garden several area.

Mostly I use OKAYA. Which is also japan surge product maker. But not famous in here.
ozak
post May 28 2014, 03:07 PM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ May 28 2014, 10:57 AM)
wow! that good. I plan buy 2 unit belkin surge protector when have internet later.
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Your house still no line? There is also others like Cal lab that does a good job too.

AV equipment also need to protect. This are sensitive equipment.
ozak
post May 29 2014, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(petlu28 @ May 28 2014, 10:36 PM)
My contractor have install this for me when I request.
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Should be ok la. Till your next equipment KFC. tongue.gif

How much is this?
ozak
post Jun 5 2014, 08:31 AM

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I didn't read the whole thing. Theory vs pratical bla bla bla... rclxub.gif

Anyway just install the damn surge protector if you think it protect.

I've been dealing and solving this surge for more than 10yrs with surge protector. Over some sensitive old electronic equipment. It still have bad news and good news even after install.
ozak
post Apr 5 2019, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(clickNsnap @ Apr 5 2019, 12:22 AM)
Hi Ozak,

Based on your past experience with surge protector, does it really work? I am thinking of "indoor - surge protection device" + "lightning conductor at rooftop and full earthing system"...what do you think?

Thanks in advance!
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You can follow Westom advise. But you have to be rocket science to understand what he said. biggrin.gif

Do not put a "lightning conductor at rooftop". You will extract the lightning strike the rod. Will KFC all your electrical appliances.

Only 3 thing can do.

The important is grounding rod. Plung another grounding rod at the garden side. As deep as possible. Pull the ground wire to the DB. Than another grounding rod behind the house. If you extend the kicthen already, plung it at outside the kitchen. Pull the wire to the nearest wall socket point. Or pull up to the upper floor nearest wall socket. The important point is, have a full grounding for wall socket that too far to be protected.

2nd, change the RCCB in the db box to better wan. Like ABB model FH202 AC-63/0.1 is good.

3rd Install a SPD in the DB. Wire it after RCCB. ABB OVR T2-1N-40-275 P is good.

With all this done, the tripping will reduce alot. My experiene so far like 1-2 trip peryrs from more than a dozen trip.

But without a good grounding, all this device will not work. So pay attention to the grounding 1st.

Won't cost you much. My total spend with DIY is about RM500.




ozak
post Apr 6 2019, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE(clickNsnap @ Apr 5 2019, 01:56 PM)
Thanks Ozak.

My house installed grounding rod...about 10-12 feet below the ground, it was near the DB area in my last renovation in 2015. But not sure how good is the grounding reading? How can we check ourself?

I received a quote to install a SPD (class 1) and grounding check at about RM1k, SPD (class 2) + groundimg check at around RM500.

I wish I can do DIY like you...cost saving smile.gif
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Every new house has a ground rod which is a must state in the country electrical rule.

What we do is add an additional ground rod around the house to get fully (or more) protect. An advantage if the developer doesn't do a good job on the ground rod.

I see a very poor job in my house ground rod when I get the house. They just wrap the copper wire around the steel rebar which is not a proper grounding rod. And the wire is 4mm size which is not a proper size.

If your house ground is landfill, the deep might not be enough. It has a high resistance. Plung as deep as possible. The contractor has the earth meter to check the proper grounding. And not in the rainy day to test. Dry earth have higher resistance.

I don't have the equipment to check. Costly. What I can do and check is the resistance wire to the rod by multimeter. Makesure low enough ohm. And a min of 6mm wire size. Rod deep as possible and connection. I solder weld the wire to the rod. The only way to confirm my grounding DIY done a good job is by the 2pcs Belkin surge protector Led light. Now it always light up to tell me the earthing is good.

That RCCB I mention above have a nuisance trip prevention which causes by lightning. It will not easily trip by lightning even it has a sensitivity of 100mA.

SPD doesn't function at all (or limited) without the shortest earth wire to the grounding rod. It has a limited radius length of protection. I forget the wire limited length. Something like 10m-20m. Any wire that longer than this range will require another SPD and nearer earth wire to another grounding rod to get protected.

SPD job is to get the lightning energy (surge voltage) as fast as possible to the grounding rod. If the surge is from the Live and neutral wire. (From TNB if you put in the class 1 SPD). MCB, RCCB or fuse in the DB box don't have the earth wire connection. So if the lightning surge coming from TNB, where will it go to unable it travel to the ground? It have to go through your equipment which have earthing protection. And from your equipment earthing body, travel to the earth wire and last to the ground rod. Which might already damage the equipment.

So don't complain if you put a bunch of SPD and cannot protect. Grounding is still important.
ozak
post Apr 6 2019, 03:01 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Apr 5 2019, 08:58 PM)
Anyone who understands what Ben Franklin did can understand what works.  The electric current goes from a cloud (ie 3 kilometers up) to earth borne charges (ie 4 kilometers distant).  Why is that complicated?  Either that electric current makes that 7 kilometer connection inside a building.  Or it makes the same connection outside via that earth ground rod.  It was always that layman simple - as first explained in primary school science.

Now, how good is that connection.  If lightning wants to use the building, then a lightning rod connects it to earth on a path that remains outside the structure.  No damage to a structure.

If lightning wants to use appliances inside a building, then a 'whole house' protector connects it to earth on a path that remains outside the structure.  No damage to appliances.  Why is that so hard?

If a protector's earth ground is not single point earth ground, then one has invited lightning to be inside - destructively via appliances.  Multiple earth grounds (ie plung another grounding rod at the garden side) makes appliance damage likely.  A surge, incoming on AC utility wires will use the other ground rod to connect to distant earthborne charges.  That connection will be destructively through appliances.

No protector does protection.  Without a good grounding in earth, the device will not work; will not be effective.  Because no protector does protection.  This is very hard for people educated by advertising.  A plug-in protector does not have that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth.  So it does significantly less or no effective protection.  And can even make appliance damage easier.  A protector must connect low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) to single point earth ground.  To the one and only earth ground electrode that all incoming utility cables connect to.

If any incoming utility cable does not first connect to that same earth ground (ie directly or via a protector), then appliance protection is compromised.

Lightning rods never make lightning strikes more likely.  That has always been an urban myth promoted by scammers who promote useless products such as ESE devices.  Lightning rods are always implemented everywhere that lightning damage cannot harm a building. That direct strike is going to happen with or without that lightning rod.  A building owner decides to let it strike the building or to connect to earth harmlessly via a lightning rod.    Only ESE scams and other outright lies deny what lightning rods have done successfully for over 250 years.  Connect the inevitable direct lightning strike to earthborne charges on a path that is not destructive.

If any of this is complex, then 1) it is new, and 2) one has not yet read it at least three times.  Even a genius never understand something new until after, at least, three rereads.  It may take more rereads if one was educated by lies from plug-in protectors, ESE manufacturers, advertising, wild speculation, or hearsay.

Why do we teach what Ben Franklin demonstrated in primary school science?  Concepts of lightning protection have alwaus been that simple.  However, if educated by lies (ie plug-in protectors), then comprehension is harder.  Unlearning those lies (from plug-in protectors or ESE manufacturers) makes learning challenging.

Protection is always about the path a current will take from cloud to earthborne charges.  Only a human makes that decision - to either have damage or to connect that current on a path that causes no damage.  We know this for both lightning rods and for protectors.  Both are only as effective as its earth ground electrode.  Facilities that cannot have damage routinely earth hardwire connections or protectors on a low impedance (ie hardwire must not be inside metallic conduit) path to single point earth ground.  Anything that does not connect that transient low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground will never answer the relevant question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?  It is only hard when one has been scammed by advertising and myths that promote scams (ie plug-in protectors).

Wall 'power point' safety ground is not, cannot be, and never will be earth ground.  Difficult for many to grasp.  That wall receptacle safety ground is not and will never be an earth ground.  Better is even more electrodes at the same common point.  Protectors must have a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground.  Otherwise a protector does nothing useful.
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Lightning strike your house is very very rare. But install the rod ontop the house is increase the percentage. Our house here is not a big house. And all the wire is conceal in the wall. If the rod it not enough to take the strong lightning, it will travel all over the house wiring.

If want to install the lightning rod, install a safe distance away from the house. It will like the rod than the house if it prefer to strike.

I have see this problem from a developer container office before. Thing still fried even the rod ontop take the lightning surge to the ground.

My nearer housing area high ground which is all is a banglo house have a very high chance for strike. They place few lightning pole around the area. Not ontop the house roof.
ozak
post Apr 6 2019, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Apr 6 2019, 03:54 PM)
The conventional design for a building lightning protection system is a rolling sphere approach with Franklin rods. The lightning rods at the highest points of the structure connection via 25x3mm2 copper tape straight down the structure to an 16mm dia min earth copper rod to an earth impedance of below 10 Ohm.
Sometimes your electrical supplier can advise you as these are standard JKR building design.

The minimum earth conductor is 10mm2 for a 40 Amp main incoming and 16mm2 for 63Amp mains. For residential design.

You can refer to the attached guidelines or to Malaysian Building By-Law 1988 for confirmation as  for me this all was a long time ago.

Hopefully I've uploaded the right attachement but note the Bahasa Malaysia version is the latest and my copy is an old code but should still be applicable.

Best wishes.
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Thanks Richard.

What we want to know is, it is advisable to install the lightning rod ontop of your house roof? Or better away from the house.

A 10mm size earth wire to the grounding rod you mean ? I think many developer failed to do that.
ozak
post Apr 6 2019, 06:10 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Apr 6 2019, 04:29 PM)
Yes, at the highest point and usually the TV and Radio antenna s are directly grounded. You will notice the tape around any government high structures or poles

Lightning protection is via copper tape is 25mnX3mm not 10mm2. The larger size to cater for lightning strike

DB home earthing can be a minimum 10mm2 pvc green wire
The sizing is calculated for the short circuit current
It's an estimate actually 

Yes many housing development do not bother as there isn't too many people aware of this code and how to check the DB earth's impedance.

Maybe it's all old school.

Nice to see brother Westom still around. Hahaha
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Yup. My parent apartment outside end lot wall have this copper tape running down the building. With a pvc pipe cover at the ground floor wall.

Still fried many equipment during storm.
ozak
post Jul 27 2020, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Jul 27 2020, 01:32 PM)
Need some advice here..on SPD . 

I am lookin to install a SPD  surge device  at the DB box /single phase /63A    for  my landed house.

What kA  rating  shall  i chose ? 

i see in shopee  there is  20kA to 120kA  choice.
is chosing a 100kA  SPD better than  40kA

Thanks..
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Std is 20ka to 40ka.

It's capacity current it can absorb.

It's better with additional earth rod.
ozak
post Jul 27 2020, 02:58 PM

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QUOTE(Momo33 @ Jul 27 2020, 02:36 PM)
thanks  ..
the price  for 60kA  and 100kA  is about  98rm to 108 rm .
Any issues if i go for higher current capacity . 

https://www.lazada.com.my/products/schneide...3660056082.html?
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Forget already.

It got to do with sensitivity and the placement of the SPDA. Either the type protect the incoming (External) before the MB or protect the internal (after the MB).

 

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