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 Lightning protection, Lightning proctection in house

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clickNsnap
post Apr 5 2019, 12:22 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 5 2014, 09:31 AM)
I didn't read the whole thing. Theory vs pratical bla bla bla...  rclxub.gif

Anyway just install the damn surge protector if you think it protect.

I've been dealing and solving this surge for more than 10yrs with surge protector. Over some sensitive old electronic equipment. It still have bad news and good news even after install.
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Hi Ozak,

Based on your past experience with surge protector, does it really work? I am thinking of "indoor - surge protection device" + "lightning conductor at rooftop and full earthing system"...what do you think?

Thanks in advance!
clickNsnap
post Apr 5 2019, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Apr 5 2019, 06:07 AM)
Any layman can read specification numbers.  A transient that is hundreds or thousand joules is routinely made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances.  How many joules does that "indoor - surge protection device" claim to 'block' or 'absorb'?  A transient that will not damage an appliance can also destroy that indoor device.  Sometimes even create fires.  One need only read that spec number.

Why would anyone spend so much money on such as tiny (near zero joule) device?  Hearsay, advertising, wild speculation, and feelings somehow justify a recommendation.

Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Only informed consumers read many paragraphs to learn what works and why.  Any recommendation (for anything) that does not say why and is not tempered by numbers is often a scam.

That is about protection of appliances inside a structure.   A lightning strike many blocks down the street is a direct strike incoming to all household appliances.  Only a properly earthed 'whole house' solution protects from typically destructive transients.

Protection of the structure means something completely different.  "lightning conductor at rooftop and full earthing system".  Properly earthed lightning rods do nothing to protect appliances.  And properly earthed 'whole house' protection does nothing to protect the structure.

What do both always required to be effective?  Earth ground.  Earth ground makes a lightning rod effective.  Earth ground means a 'whole house' protector is effective.  Ben Franklin demonstrated this over 250 years ago.  And yet so many still do not get it. Earth ground is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  A protector or a lightning rod is only as effective as its earth ground.

No "indoor - surge protection device" has an earth ground connection, will not even discuss it, and does not claim to effectively protect any appliance.  But it sure does have an obscene  profit margin that pays for a massive advertising program.  So it must be better - spec numbers be damned.  They said it is better; so it must be better.
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Thanks for the details advise, although I am not really 100% understand.

QUOTE(ozak @ Apr 5 2019, 11:31 AM)
You can follow Westom advise. But you have to be rocket science to understand what he said. biggrin.gif

Do not put a "lightning conductor at rooftop". You will extract the lightning strike the rod. Will KFC all your electrical appliances.

Only 3 thing can do.

The important is grounding rod. Plung another grounding rod at the garden side. As deep as possible. Pull the ground wire to the DB. Than another grounding rod behind the house. If you extend the kicthen already, plung it at outside the kitchen. Pull the wire to the nearest wall socket point. Or pull up to the upper floor nearest wall socket. The important point is, have a full grounding for wall socket that too far to be protected.

2nd, change the RCCB in the db box to better wan. Like ABB model FH202 AC-63/0.1 is good.

3rd Install a SPD in the DB. Wire it after RCCB. ABB OVR T2-1N-40-275 P is good.

With all this done, the tripping will reduce alot. My experiene so far like 1-2 trip peryrs from more than a dozen trip.

But without a good grounding, all this device will not work. So pay attention to the grounding 1st.

Won't cost you much. My total spend with DIY is about RM500.
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Thanks Ozak.

My house installed grounding rod...about 10-12 feet below the ground, it was near the DB area in my last renovation in 2015. But not sure how good is the grounding reading? How can we check ourself?

I received a quote to install a SPD (class 1) and grounding check at about RM1k, SPD (class 2) + groundimg check at around RM500.

I wish I can do DIY like you...cost saving smile.gif

This post has been edited by clickNsnap: Apr 5 2019, 03:22 PM
clickNsnap
post Apr 5 2019, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Apr 5 2019, 10:06 PM)
How far is the connection from each utility cable to that electrode - either by hardwire or via a protector.  If more than 3 meters, then it does human protection and compromises appliance protection.

Does every wire inside every incoming cable connect to that one earth ground rod?  If not, then appliance protection has been compromised.  An AC utility demonstrates these concepts in good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:
https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-educatio...ality/tech-tips
  then select Tech Tip 8.

One electrode is usually sufficient.  But that is dependent on the soil and other geological features.  For example, sand is a poor conductor.  So more electrodes are necessary.

Repeated because it is that critical.  Each connection to that electrode must be low impedance.  Ie less than 3 meters, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, no sharp bends, separated from other non-grounding conductors.  Inspection goes a long way into learning what is sufficient.
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Thanks for the info.

I think my house's wires are connected to the DB with ELCB and attached to one earth rod, the rod is about 3-4 meters from the DB.

I am arranging an electrician to install a SPD in the DB, check the quality of earth grounding next week, hope the appointed electrician is well knowledgeable on the power surge protection.

This post has been edited by clickNsnap: Apr 5 2019, 11:57 PM
clickNsnap
post Apr 8 2019, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Apr 6 2019, 09:13 AM)
Follow that wire from DB to electrode.  For example, if it goes up over a foundation and down to an earthing electrode, then protection is compromised.  It is unnecessary too long.  It has sharp bends over the foundation.  And it is best routed away from other non-grounding wires.

Better would also put another electrode maybe somewhere before the original one.  Since those are cheap and it would expand and make more conductive that earth ground.

Whether that is necessary is a function of neighborhood history.  For example, a transient typically happens once every seven years.  Ten or twenty years of neighborhood history would better quantify risk.

Even the ELCB must be protected.  Better is to connect an incoming transient to earth so that it does not go through the ELCB.  An electrician can better determine what local codes also require.
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QUOTE(ozak @ Apr 6 2019, 03:36 PM)
Every new house has a ground rod which is a must state in the country electrical rule.

What we do is add an additional ground rod around the house to get fully (or more) protect. An advantage if the developer doesn't do a good job on the ground rod.

I see a very poor job in my house ground rod when I get the house. They just wrap the copper wire around the steel rebar which is not a proper grounding rod. And the wire is 4mm size which is not a proper size.

If your house ground is landfill, the deep might not be enough. It has a high resistance. Plung as deep as possible. The contractor has the earth meter to check the proper grounding. And not in the rainy day to test. Dry earth have higher resistance.

I don't have the equipment to check. Costly. What I can do and check is the resistance wire to the rod by multimeter. Makesure low enough ohm. And a min of 6mm wire size. Rod deep as possible and connection. I solder weld the wire to the rod. The only way to confirm my grounding DIY done a good job is by the 2pcs Belkin surge protector Led light. Now it always light up to tell me the earthing is good.   

That RCCB I mention above have a nuisance trip prevention which causes by lightning. It will not easily trip by lightning even it has a sensitivity of 100mA.

SPD doesn't function at all (or limited) without the shortest earth wire to the grounding rod. It has a limited radius length of protection. I forget the wire limited length. Something like 10m-20m. Any wire that longer than this range will require another SPD and nearer earth wire to another grounding rod to get protected.

SPD job is to get the lightning energy (surge voltage) as fast as possible to the grounding rod. If the surge is from the Live and neutral wire. (From TNB if you put in the class 1 SPD). MCB, RCCB or fuse in the DB box don't have the earth wire connection. So if the lightning surge coming from TNB, where will it go to unable it travel to the ground? It have to go through your equipment which have earthing protection. And from your equipment earthing body, travel to the earth wire and last to the ground rod. Which might already damage the equipment.

So don't complain if you put a bunch of SPD and cannot protect. Grounding is still important.
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QUOTE(Richard @ Apr 6 2019, 07:40 PM)
Conventional wisdom is to install an SPD (per DB rated kA or higher) before the DB to dissipate to mass of earth the lightning surge current. However I'm no expert so get a second opinion if you can.

The home DB's earth pit impedance must be as low as possible to maintain shortest path to earth mass. For landed properties only.

I would suspect your parents building earth pits are too high impedance thus the lightning surge randomly hit so many equipment

I would suggest you get a certified electrical contractor to check the structure electrical earthing pit (preferably 10 Ohm or better) system.

Edit* Anyway here's an easy way to check whether your home has good earthing.

Use your multimeter to measure the Voltage between Phase/Earth, if you get the same(or about 5V diff) voltage as between Phase/Neutral then you have good earthing. Fluctuates according to current weather/ground conditions.

Otherwise have your earthing checked by a certified electrician
If only you continually experience damaged equipment due to lightning strikes.
My house earthing is bad (I've checked) but no lightning damaged so I don't bother.
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Thanks for sharing. My electrician is coming to inspect the earth grounding and install SPD tomorrow. Hope all goes well smile.gif

Btw, the earth ground reading should be 10 Ohm or lower, right?

clickNsnap
post Apr 9 2019, 05:42 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Apr 9 2019, 07:55 AM)
Earth impedance value

Transformer Neutral (star) pt and body - 1 Ohm or below

Residential electrical DB earthing pit - 10 Ohm or below

Residential Lightning protection system pit - between 5 to 50 Ohm or below
depending on soil conditions and consultant design.

Problem was some areas almost impossible to get the earth reading due to budget constraints. Needed to explain to the client and design engineer.
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QUOTE(westom @ Apr 9 2019, 10:31 AM)
Earth ground would be low ohm resistance.  The connection to earth ground must be low ohm impedance.  Electrician would not have any equipment to measure impedance.  And most probablly do not know what impedance is.

But we make it simple.  A low impedance connection is short (ie less than 3 meters), has no sharp bends, is not inside metallic conduit, and has no splices.

Generally, many electrician cannot measure earth ground resistance.  So most simply install two electrodes.  One is more than sufficient to protect human life.  More (sufficiently spaced apart) are necessary to protect appliances.

Rather than measure ground resistance, a decision for earth ground may be determined by geology.  Sandy soil needs an enhanced ground.  Earth of fine particles that stays moist (therefore is more electrically conductive) means one or two electrodes are probably sufficient.
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Thanks Richard & Westom.

My house installed the SPD and inspect earth grounding today, the SPD is an unknown brand (electrician replace with own company logo), it comes with 3 years warranty. The boss provides prompt reply on my enquiries, the installer did a nice job, the earth grounding reading is 1.3 Ohm... hope all goes well thumbup.gif

This post has been edited by clickNsnap: Apr 11 2019, 12:15 AM


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