Hehe... yes, as far as I am concerned... I still prefer actual bluray SQ !

Refer to my reply to Stilo10 for my explanations.

Tq for your explanation Master Ben.


Yeah, I believe so and 4K gears should become mainstream soon.

Thanks again for your explanation!

You are welcome. Hehe... corrected my typo error....

(1) Using a SSD harddisk without any motor will help.

... changed from with to "without"


ADDITION
Yikes!! Just found out another big mistake!

Knowing this, that is why there are people who uses Notebook SSD (Solid-State) harddisk, good quality USB cable, Low-Noise Power Adapter and so forth. I did all this BUT because the signal path (highway) is longer, I somehow still prefer playing the actual bluray disc. Its NOT because of any "lower quality" from the Bluray ISO itself.

Not "actual harddisk"... corrected to... "actual bluray disc"

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Dec 7 2016, 03:50 PM

Its not a matter of different production standards or post-production remastering used per se. If I am not mistaken, we have discussed something similar to this quite some time ago. Well, doesn't matter.

Yes, I do agree with you regarding the CGI remastering issue but this should not detract from the great potential and improvements that 4K can bring to our visual entertainment. Just like what happened when they filmed in 2D and then used digital post-processing to create 3D. Having an actual 3D camera to film the movie will always be much better than a digitally generated 3D.

4K blurays and 4K TV broadcasts holds much promise and is already a reality albeit its an agonising slow wait in its implementation. 4K TV channels in Malaysia? I may not live long enough to see it! With greater resolution comes with more artifacts appearing that were otherwise not noticeable in lower resolutions. When CGI is done in actual 4K, not remastered, then quality will surely improve. The 4K hardware and tools are already here but what i believe happened to those 4K remastered movies is merely due to reducing production costs, nothing more and not because 4K don't deliver. Yes, I do know that you already knew that 4K does deliver as you have stated so clearly for X-Men Apocalypse 4K.

This is what I should have said in my reply about 4K blurays winning over 1080p blurays...
When full 4K production standards is used in producing the 4K bluray, the PQ will definitely be astounding! Much much better PQ than 1080p bluray. 4K does deliver... if only they do it properly and without any remastering or enhancement.

When James Cameron used actual 3D cameras to film Avatar, the 3D quality is much much better than those movies with Digitally Remastered 3D. Remember the time when HD TV broadcasts were first launched early in the Millenium when many of the materials were actually remastered from SD. When more and more actual HD materials were produced, HD TV took off in a huge way. However, its also undeniable that many HD TV channels today still churn out bad quality HD too. In the same respect, when more and more materials are produced in actual 4K covering all aspects of production (CGI included), then overall 4K bluray PQ will surely beat the 1080p blurays.

You are right that not all 4K blurays are better than 1080p blurays. I am merely talking about the general and overall 4K bluray PQ that are much much better than 1080p blurays. I believe that you do agree here. Its not about quantifying 4K blurays to any particular half-baked 4K productions (including 4K upscaling and remastering). The situation will improve but there will still be rogue productions that put a shame to 4K. As with everything else, the same applies when we want to compare DTS-HD Master Audio Vs DTS so... I am also right to say... it depends because even some bluray DTS sound better than DTS-HD MA. But then again... DTS-HD MA does win over DTS in "general" (subject to the quality of production used).

I know its a bit early... Wishing You and your family AND EVERYONE here A Happy And Joyous New Year as 2016 soon draws to a close and the new 2017 steps in. Also, Merry Christmas to all the Christians.

Hmmnn,

AFAIK.. de studios are not interested in implementing 3D for 4K.. hence why you dont see any ttls in 3d for 4k.. at the moment the best you can get for 3d is thru BD..

Mmm... I don't think that the studios are not interested. Its just not the right time yet to include 3D into 4K blurays because 4K bluray releases are still at the early stage so the consumer response is not yet clear.

As you already know, 3D do have 2 frames (for left and right eye) which does pose problems with additional bluray diskspace needed but technology did manage to "fit" the 3D movie into the BD50 bluray disc. I actually don't know how its done and if you inspect the 3D bluray disc in your computer, you will notice an extra SSIF folder with additional files that increases the diskspace used to over 50GB, more than the capacity of the BD50 disc! When I ripped such disc to my harddisk as BDMV folders, the total size can go up to 70 to 80 GB size! Of course the studios can split the movie into extra discs just to fit the 3D extra size but that would mean increased production costs. With that being said... I may be wrong but I do believe that it needs more time to change the 3D 4K processing methods involved which alters the way on how to fit extra 3D data into the UHD discs. I am talking about 4K with a much larger resolution AND a huge file size PLUS HDR that needs to include 3D and then "fit" into BD100, BD66, BD50 or BD25 discs. At the present time, the maximum single UHD disc capacity is BD100 for 100GB. Yes, maybe 3D data have already been done to fit into the UHD discs but I still believe that it needs time for them to be produced. Maybe at the present time, they are just concentrating on non-3D 4K blurays.

Therefore, I will not say that the studios are "not interested". I will just say that they are presently reluctant to release 3D 4K blurays because of the reasons that I have explained above. Probably, they are having a "wait and see" attitude to see how the 4K blurays sales pick up in the future.

For the cinemas, the history of 3D started in the Fifties (mmm... 1953?) and as the years move on, many critics said that 3D are just a gimmick that will not last. They were proven wrong as 3D movies in cinemas are still around (eventhough not many cinemas). When the blurays were initially released in small numbers, there were practically no 3D blurays. At that time, I would be wrong to say that the studios were not interested in releasing 3D blurays loh. At that time, it was not the right time yet and they also needed time to find a method to "fit" extra 3D data into the limited capacity bluray disc too. Ok... when 3D finally did arrived in blurays, initially there were actually very few such 3D blurays being released... as time goes by... now more and more 3D blurays appeared. Now there are many 3D blurays BUT it does NOT mean that 3D blurays are more than the 2D ones.

If anyone were to ask me whether 4K blurays will release a 3D version or totally NOT, then I will say that the same question were also asked when bluray movies were released in those early days. At that time, there were people who believed that very few 3D blurays would be released because there weren't many 3D TVs available at that time and it was very expensive too. Let's go forward to the present time and you do already know that there are many 3d blurays available, not just a few.

Yes, 3D 4K Bluray is not yet available at the present time. Will it come in the near future? Yes, I believe it will come... as long as 4K blurays don't die! Will many 4K blurays be released in 3D in the future? I don't have to answer this question... just look at what happened when more and more 3D blurays appeared.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Dec 7 2016, 04:20 PM

Oh no, don't be mistaken. I'm a big believer of 4k, I want 4k to be mainstream already. South Korea and Japan will be the first countries to broadcast 4k TV content as a mainstream next year, so exciting times ahead for those countries.

An early Happy new year to you too, joyous fellow. Here's hoping 2017 isn't as shit of a year as 2016, currency wise.

Hehehe... you and I and everyone else who have ever seen the quality of 4K will undeniably be mesmerised and got "hooked like a fish to a bait". Both of us belong to same 4K camp.

As far as 4K going mainstream... it will definitely be a fallacy to believe that we can even see the shadow of 4K TV broadcast in Bolehland in the near future. SD analogue TV broadcasts in Bolehland still continue to exist including Ass-teruk SD channels. Yea, yeah... terrestrial Digital TV broadcasts in HD are due to be officially launched in 2017, mmm... or so they say! Nationwide coverage? *cough* *cough*. As for Bolehland 4K TV broadcast... we can continue to dream until Wawasan 2020 and further. At least in the near future, the only way for us in Bolehland to fast forward in obtaining our enjoyment of 4K materials is through 4K Blurays.

My, oh my.... and what about 8K TVs? Are they for real? Not that I don't like it but don't do the celebratory jump too soon... let's take it one step at a time... Digital HD TV in Bolehland first... then abolishing SD channels... and 3D TV broadcast (Sky 3D channel?)... and the list goes on.

I don't expect 2017 to be any better, in fact... will only get worse. Around June 2016, I paid for my AV Pre-Amp and Power in USD for a total of around USD 16000 at the rate of RM 4.02 to USD 1. With today's rate of around RM 4.42, I would have paid an additional of RM 6400 because of the devalued difference of RM 0.40 ! And I thought then, that I was hit hard with the unhealthy currency situation. Now... in restrospect, I actually "saved" around RM 6K... is it a good thing or a bad thing? You tell me! The irony of it is that... IF we have the $$ to buy now, then buy now as I do expect that we can "save" by paying less at RM 4.42 and not wait until it reaches RM 5.10 !!! That... is a gloomy 2017 for us in Bolehland.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2016/01...-2016/78087454/

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Dec 7 2016, 07:08 PM

Probably TN50 by the time we get 4k as mainstream....

Same here, dodged a bullet by getting my Ascend Sierra Towers and Center when it was still 4.05. Even though still on a pricey side but yeah... it was close to be losing an extra 5k+ just because of you-know-who.

I have recently updated my MX122 AV Pre-Amp firmware to support DTSX and Auro-3D.

Its always risky to do the update yourself. I do know that there were people who failed during the update and had to send back to the service centre. You have been warned!!



It DID actually happened to me when my update failed halfway with a "Connection Failed" shown on the AV Pre-amp display panel. Switched off... and when switched back on, it just tried to continue update but still failed after trying another 2 times and stopped with error and then it just freezed there, no longer function. Luckily I was prepared for this and did a full "factory reset" using 3 button presses on the unit itself. At least my AV Pre-amp can still be used and I can try to repeat update later. However, because the update failed halfway at "DSP2", DTSX was already displayed when playing bluray BUT NO SOUND !! Even DTS and DTS-HD MA no sound. All Dolby Digital, Dolby True-HD amd Dolby Atmos audio still worked correctly.

I continued to use my AV Pre-Amp for 2 days in a "half working" condition. Luckily there is a reset. If not reset, it would have remained "frozen" and need to be sent back to the service centre immediately.

I was not going to give up and continue to think of what went wrong and how to continue the update. I even emailed to McIntosh support seeking help. On the third day, they replied and asked me to press some buttons and check the full firmware version of the various parts. He sent me the firmware version details and asked me to compare with that list. Then... on that same third day , I had a "brilliant" idea. Why not connect my AV Pre-Amp to my mobile phone data internet using hotspot and tethering? I did... and wow... the update continued until everything was done successfully. Phew... problem solved and checked the firmware details ... all version match the list exactly so I emailed reply to McIntosh about this and thanked them for the assistance. Crisis avoided! I still don't understand why UniFi connection failed eventhough internet was still connected.


Here is what I would advise to people who want to personally try to update the firmware... if possible, DON'T do it yourself and just send back to the professionals at the Service Centre to do it.

After that advice and IF anyone STILL wants to take the risk then do these ...

1) Before starting, find out how to do a factory reset. Get the combination button on the front of the unit which need to be pressed together. Ask the Service Centre or your dealer.

2) Do NOT use a slow or unstable internet connection. My UniFi 30Mbps is fast and also stable. My entire update took me about 35 min. If your connection is a "slow" 4Mbps speed... forget about updating.

3) If failed to continue update... do the "factory reset" and then try a different internet connection. My update failed when using my UniFi connection so I used my Maxis Data connection. If still failed, try bringing it to a friend's place to try using the connection there.

4) After trying ALL the above and still FAILED, then BAD LUCK... return it to Service Centre. Just do NOT blame me... I have already stated my warning and did NOT recommend anyone to it.

That's all about my personal experience with my McIntosh MX122 firmware update for DTSX and Auro-3D.

Next, below are my "fun" details of my experience with Auro-3D which I also want to share here.

My system uses 5.1.2 speakers with two Front Top speakers. I managed to find only ONE bluray that has Auro-3D 9.1 which is "Cold War II 2D+3D Blu-Ray" so I tested it.

DAMN ! Only got "Multi Ch In", no Auro-3D. It should not be the new firmware so I wondered what I did wrong here. Then I sent email to McIntosh again showing pictures of my settings. Hehe... the reply was that cause can be TWO things... (1) Bitstream Output must be set at the bluray player and (2) Auro-3D uses various Height speakers so the Layout Setting cannnot use "Dolby Speakers". I got (1) correct and changed my MX122 setting to use "Front Height" speakers and ... WOW... Auro-3d now worked.



Here is what McIntosh support guy told me...
"Dolby speaker" can be used in the settings BUT at least two "Front Height" speaker must be set. "2 Front Height + 2 Dolby Surround" can be used. Won't work if "Front Height" is completely NOT set.
Regardless of how many additional speakers, at least two must be set to "Front Height" and when done this way... then Auro-3D, DTSX, Dolby Atmos, DTSMA, Dolby TrueHD and others all work! If only Front Dolby is set, NO Front Height... then only Auro-3D don't work, and all others still ok.

Auro-3D Bluray



So, how was the Auro-3D sound? I just cannot give an accurate answer on the experience. The reason is because of the Hong Kong bluray production. Most (maybe all) Hong Kong bluray recordings have audio that are excessively increased too much and altered too much until it really sounds "artificial" and annoying. Maybe many will disagree with me and loved such "effects" This is what I noticed from ALL of my Hong Kong bluray collection. What I can roughly say is that the Auro-3D sounds more wide and spacious and I can "feel" more from the top speakers which seemed to be a bit more lively. The Auro-3D bluray also have DTS-HD MA and I compared this. As far as this bluray is concerned, the overhead surround effects somehow sounded almost the same for Auro-3D and DTS MA.

What about blurays that don't have Auro-3D audio? I proceeded to test with a few using Concerts and then Movies. Whether it is Dolby Atmos or DTSX, these can be changed to emulate (false) Auro-3D. Mmm... here is my overall feeling. For bluray concerts with DTSMA/Dolby TrueHD, Auro-3D somehow sounded a bit better... better staging, more open and spacious with cleaner details but the vocals seemed to be less assertive. For movies, Auro-3D somehow elevates the low bass to cover more of the room space and the top height and surround sound effects such as thunder, gun fire, helicopter sounds, etc seemed to be more aggressive which sometimes can sound a bit overdone.



I even tested Auro-3D on my Astro HD channels and CD Stereo music. With Astro set to "Dolby Digital 5.1", sound a bit improved but seemed a bit artificial too. When Astro is set to "Stereo Analogue" then Auro-3D sounds bad with sound effects all over the room and vocals too bright. Its similar situation for CD stereo too. Well... this is expected... Auro-3D/DTSX/Atmos don't work well for Stereo Audio sources.

Remember... what I have said here are only my personal views on my Auro-3D experience based on what my own ears tells me. Different people with different ears do have different opinions.

I may be wrong but I can say that Auro-3D bluray releases is rare! So far, I am lucky to only have one to test... miserable ONE! IF your AVR can be upgraded to support Auro-3D and need to pay for it, then I do NOT recommend to do it until more Auro-3D blurays are released. Of course, if its free... go ahead and upgrade! Well, only my personal opinion again

Regards.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Dec 7 2016, 11:15 PM

well it depends on what transmission protocol it use

UDP or TCP

if TCP is used....there will be no drop of "quality" like you say.

Yes, true, true.

No point arguing on whether 4K 3d will come to pass.. IMO its a no.. Big studios are not keen because of dwindling sales in 3d BD's so in their defence [ its a biznes aftr all ] .. all tat capital to mix or do up a ttl into 3 d n if theres no sales, then its pointless[ in the biznes sense ]
If it is in the pipeline.. meaning they are tinking abt it, they would hv announced it in the beginning...
Anyway.. time will tell..

YES! on the firmware upgrade part.
Do it at your own risk! I almost bricked my Denon when updating the DTS:X features and have to do a factory reset after searching high and low from the net what to do when the AVR stuck at "Retry Updating....."
I never have problem updating my other equipment like BD player and media player, it's only the Denon (or from the net, any D&M products) even with a stable wired connection!
However, after reset the AVR to factory default, all the intended updates are there for me to use
Scares me off course
I think for D&M models, after updating (or while updating), it changes the network setting and could not find the original connection that doing the update and hence the "Connection Failure 04" error....
for novice, I think it's better to send in to service center for them to update for you..

This post has been edited by mpyw: Dec 8 2016, 11:02 AM

Ya, ya... you are entitled to your opinion and either one of us can be right. I do agree with you that "only time will tell" which is exactly the same words I used many years ago when one of my friend told me that 3D bluray will only last a short while because its a gimmick and many people also got "headache" watching 3D blurays. Well... 3D blurays still continue to be released till today. So true that there are people who just can't watch 3D.

Yes, only time will also tell whether the regular 3D blurays vanish or not in the future due to serious drop in sales. The same situation applies for 4K 3D blurays which may never be released as you said.

Even for the IMAX version of blurays... too few were released but does it completely vanish in the future? I don't think so but ... again I do agree that only time will tell.

You can be right too! Sometimes it difficult to know what will happen in the future. I remember the time when CD became popular and common so people were saying that Vinyl LPs and the turntable will lose popularity or may even disappear... but time tells a different story as its still going strong till today.

So... did you send your Denon to the service center for the DTSX firmware update? Or you still using back the older firmware without DTSX support?

Its not just Denon, it can also happen to Onkyo and Marantz too. As you already know, it did happen to my McIntosh. Somehow I think "something" is wrong with the UniFi cable connection which I initially used for the update. Luckily, I thought of using my phone wireless Maxis Data connection to continue the update and was successful! I told my bro-in-law not to take the risk and send his Marantz 8802 back to the Marantz service center for the update. His unit returned a week later and everything worked and now support DTSX.

This post has been edited by jamesleetech: Dec 9 2016, 12:56 AM

After the Connection Failed04 error, I shut down the AVR, pull out the power, wait for 30sec, do a factory reset back to default, everything back to normal and, walaaaaaa, all the dts:x features are there for me to use

So no need to send to service center

so scary adventure. make me think twice triple to update my marantz streamer.

it working fine with ori functions so i just leave as it

If everything is working well, why bother?
Furthermore the firmware update method for D+M is not really foolproof.