I can say placebo faster than most can say snake oil.

Mind you there are good cables out there that are worth the money, like high end beldens or inductor cored ones, heck even Volex cords are great.

Heck listening is fine, but i rather not "perceive" what isn't there. If it sounds better, it sounds better. But i rather trust the numbers than the placebo effect. Heck the sound might be even more degraded, but i enjoy it more. But the point is that it isn't an accurate representation of the recording and not true to the signal.

For example audiophiles like to keep their ICs short, but did you know that being too short introduces reflections courtesy of IM at the connector that could add bad mojo to your source?

Well, i think i trust my ears, but i swear by my math.

It stems from a simple idea that analog is made from near infinite resolution (as far as the medium allows for) and that Digital is absolute, being absolute, a single bit error can actually cascade from one point creating a deluge of errors (assuming you don't have CRC, LRC, BCS or Parity), so in the world of Digital, one f-up can whack a whole network, since no ACK sent and crap like that. Although most digital transmissions are error tolerant these days.

I said it isn't a primary concern, just get something with uber low resistance and one that generally shows good qualities and you're fine, because specs aren't as important to audio as they are to digital, mind you CAT5E is designed to make 100m runs with acceptable degradation and as little timing loss as possible. For example; Impedence matching with most speakers is bullcrap because these days source impedence is so low with SS amps, but why do SS amp makers still put it there? To make people go "wow, complex, must be 1337"

Seriously, no ear can hear it.
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....ight=blind+test
triangle = silver
circles = starquad
square = ratshack

Ratshack, Silver and Starquad compared. Conclusion? All Phail.

Mind you the difference might be there, but it surely isn't perceptible, who knows maybe be an ultra small percentile of people that is, but audiologists still claim otherwise.


Maybe environments pose challenges too, for me, 1 24 incher, 2 17in CRTs, 2 Printers, 2 Card readers, ZL 2.0, PS2, 2 Switches, 1 hub, 2 wireless routers, soldering equipment, 1 amp, 1 socket clock, handphone charger, battery charger, MX duo unit and 3 PCs are seriously going to add electrical noise, thus when i do a shielded vs non shielded test i can hear the diff. But who uses as much crap on one table as i do eh? But my point has been, certainly no use in comparing a cheapo Belden and Nordost, same to me if you ask.

I like Cardas cables, they're all blue and stuff, that's why. Plus i cans show off

what that test proved was that cables and pre-conceived perceptions don't match, not *necessarily* that differences cannot be heard =P not to mention that when differences were heard ... well better material =/= better sound for each person.

What they should have included was a 4th option: they're all the same! *I'm sure someone else already suggested that on head-fi*

through this research, it's doesn't mean that there's no different. only if their brain can percisely tells that which sound characteristic belongs to which cable or not. and i really doubt that.
some time i comparing belden interconnect and my canare l-4E6S, or silver interconnect. i can hear the different, some major, and some minor. but i can't really say out which sound belongs to which cable because of i can't remembe it. but i can hear different. EXCEPT those cable i really familiar and i like their sound. like canare l-4e6s, i like the sound, so chances i can point out the cable within whole bunch of cable sound is quite high.
in my cases, i can different canare-L4E6S from Belden and silver. but i can't differentciate amoung belden and silver.

valve, but some factory cable :EG: Cardas cable are HAND TERMINTATED. so how do u define DIY and factory cable which is hand terminated?
the cardas even so strict that if other peolple buying same cable and same plug, soldering with same lead and same methods, they won't recognise it as their cardas sound. if we going to use pure match and physics on here, i doubt there's different. but hell, according to some hifi people, it DOES bring different.

well. if copper is copper, then go out to jalan pasar, buy those RM 2 cable for the hifi which cause you RM 10K.
think about that dude.
if copper is copper, why people borther about 6N 7N, 99.9999% and 99.99999% really made the different?
according to your teory, even normal cheapo cable which has around 95% copper should be sound so different from those 99.9999% copper cable. because no one can really spot the 5% or 1% different. but TRUST ME. those hifi EAR can hear it. =)


i myself as a low end cable seller, Canare-L4E6S.
and i served quite a number of customers which is happy with my cable. if your math applied, and there's really no different amoung cable. probally i should be awarded with the "super-duper con man of the year" . which i cheat their money to spend hundrads on cable buying the same cable they can get in jalan pasar for RM 2. and yet i can make them happy with the cable....

also another example of MATH goes not well in AUdio, is
theorically they claim that FLAC = LOSSLESS.
come over my place, i let you listen FLAC and OGG i rip from original josh groban disc, and i let you listen the original disc, playing using same headphone, same speaker, same sound card, same notebook.
i can gurantee you that FLAC have some losses....because the josh groban song clip at certain place. it;s very minor one . but i can hear it.
i tough my CD rom got problems, so i rip using external drive, and play using the same drive using CD.
result are the same. i have 13 version of josh groban first album in my computer. all ripped with different CD rom, DVD rom, DVD writer. so on so on. but while i play it back USING SAME OPTICAL DRIVE, the one directly play from CD always better.


This post has been edited by PcWork: Oct 3 2006, 11:22 AM

Point 1 : I'm comparing stuff againts subjective points, ever heard of the law of diminishing returns? Mind you purity isn't an issue, because it's real world tangible, question is why can companies like Kimber charge 200 percent of companies like Belden, Tyco and Canare when the purity is the same, citing it's "magically" better.

I said copper is copper sometimes, and assuming so, very pure copper until it's negligible. Trust me, they can't, so much do most can't even pass a DBT. I can pass a DBT when comparing shielded and non shielded in my system, because my environment calls for such and improvement. But where do we draw the line?

Point 2 : People are happy because people are satisfied. They see the difference, fine. What i'm questioning is sometimes is their ability to see the difference when the only difference between their new cable and their old one was 0.0000001 percent more purity and they say "WOW"

Point 3 : FLAC is lossless, Reedhamming as far as i'm concerned, Works. If CD CRC weren't perfect, we'd get bit-loss in our files, and heck to me it's the same CD Burner that burns both Audio and my encrypted files. And if one error occurs with the encrypted file, you can kiss em goodbye.

Mabye the trick here is to get your music playing program or disk drive to correct those errors since IIRC, CD Drives don't really bother with error correction when it comes to music (thus the settings in NERO)

If FLAC is lossy, maybe ZIP is too , i blame it on your reader or source, and mind you OGG is Lossy, it goes through processing and MDCT and recoding to FP code. So maybe it cuts out the lack of details and maybe that clipping was in the CD itself. It's just that other encoders weren't good enough to let it slip in.

Like i said, CDs are read on a case by case basis and most errors are just let through instead of corrected in the case of audio.

If flac is lossy, we will hear the difference in the form of artifacts, not clipping. Apparently playback from HDDs isn't always a good thing >.>

then it boils down to how u define 'hand terminate' and the tools they use. I can't elaborate more as i have never seen them soldering. It is the material of the lead, the connector, the cable and the soldering 'technique' that made the difference. Not sure wat technique, but i think it does matter.

empire23: try google on OCC copper (http://www.vhaudio.com/images/occ.jpg)
and Cryogenic Treatment (http://www.vhaudio.com/cryo.html)

do u think your high end belden will bother doing that on the cable?

i believe there are more treatments and the processes available of how the cable is made being kept secret by cable maker. That's why they don't bother explaining why their 99.99999% silver cable is different from others. They'll prefer your ears to do the judgement. Of course in your case, it doesn't matter cause mathematically and physically, to you they are the same. As long as you put some exotic shoe lace to beautify it, it's great to you

eventually i have tried the DIY cat5 with some cheapo made in china OFC cat5 cable, and it sucks the sound is bright, and edgy. I won't bother trying it with belden.

Again, theory and science doesn't you how to make thing sounds nice. That is why there is no such software which can evaluate whether a music sound nice or not. Why don't u try explaining with maths and physics how to make audio sounds good without listening to it how to tell if Emi Fujita's voice is better or Cai Qin without listening to it

Its called OCC (ohno continuous cast), people do it for silver too =P how can it be "secret" anyway? Most cable companies don't exactly own entire factories dedicated to producing ultra-pure raw material - they buy large amounts of it from the people who are producing the raw material.

Does anyone know why Cryogenic treatment improves the sound? Even cable freaks aren't going to be so quick to back up this claim. OCC copper isn't THAT expensive btw, and a number of boutique cable makers don't even use bother using OCC copper. More importantly, Empire23 was comparing belden cables of equal purity with so called "high end" offerings, not OFC belden vs OCC copper.



Math and physics can tell you how good/bad a cable is though... its just that certain "objectivists" claim that all cables are the same, yada yada.

tachi: ya those are the KNOWN technology, i believe there are more techniques that are NOT KNOWN to the public.

The fact is you can't prove these cables are of equal purity

Belden Does Cryo treat cables lah dahling. Not for sound, but for durability. And if done by ametuers, Cryo treatment results in temperature shock. Ever see what happens when you smelt steel and then dip in ice cold water. All you do is let the crystals refall in place in a controlled manner, they certainly increase hardness, but how they affect signal loss?

Well here's an example of what belden does sell, the Belden 1506A, mind you it's more expensive than Kimber's offering but it is a fine piece of engineering, with all the specs needed.

For example Nordost advertises 66 percent the speed of light velocity for their cables, yet Belden gets 86 percent for their 4A. So, it's either someone is playing the numbers game or someone is lying. Question is, who?

I know how to see whether a cable sounds good but people wont listen.

Signal at Source = Signal at Output, Done. Now that's accuracy for you. And mind you a simple Tektronik Signal Analyzer will do that for you. Mind you the soul of audiophilia, which has been long forgotten mind you is the objective of getting a Perfect Representation of the source (be it concert recording or whatnots)

I'm joining alamaklor's team transparency lol. Back to the soul of audiophilia!

this is what starquad should make into. a microphone cable .
stripe all the wires. solder as shown below.

then solder the canon jack as shown below

after that solder the starquad to the canon jack as shown

same goes to the other end. which is quater inch jack

and here is the end result

What are you going to use that cable for wor? You have a balanced headphone that uses 4 pin XLR but you only have a headphone amp that uses 1/4'' plugs?

Nope, it's a karaoke cable IIRC. Because Mics are terminated with the XLR and the amps are terminated with the 1/4

Dun assume anything big and looks like that is an XLR, u got pawned! its stated there, the way the Canare eas SUPPOSED to be wired, as a microphone wire to a microphone jack wateva.

it's a stereo to mono connection.....

I just did this yesterday. EMU 0404 - RCA breakout cable


Canare starquad + canare F09 RCA + 80 sen d-sub


Erected.


My old RM5.00 cable


This post has been edited by shinnosuke: Oct 12 2006, 08:37 PM

pls dont flame nor luff at me, and pardon my ignorance - how can we make use of such EMU to RCA cables ? on Ld2+ ?

Almost all Josh Groban's cd i've heard clips...the recording is surprisingly poor...and for these crap recordings..I'd just keep them in lossy to save spaces.

I recently acquired a limp bizkit album that I used to listen to...wow jesus....it clips and distorts like crazy...I couldnt recall that it sounds so damn crappy.

err.. to connect EMU 0404 to anything with RCA audio input?. Is that answering your question? yes, LDII+ is an example.

This post has been edited by shinnosuke: Oct 13 2006, 12:18 PM