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empire23
post Oct 2 2006, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(valve_300b @ Oct 2 2006, 11:32 AM)
you must be joking smile.gif those does look good, but i doubt it sounds as good as it looks.
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People buy cables for good looks, not sound dude tongue.gif It's a proven fact after so many blind tests. But you can compare shielded with unshielded, copper and silver and plug matching (impedence mismatch FTW), but still, even twisted shielded silver is still cheaper than what most people out there say about boutique cables.

Example : Audiophiles say shorter is better, but in the case of Impedence mismatch and reflective signalling, longer might be better because it serves to attenuate the reflection before it can affect the source.

Networking easily teaches you how to spot a bad cable and characteristics you might be looking for. Owh how i love RG58 cable tongue.gif Plus Vampire tap FTW
empire23
post Oct 2 2006, 05:53 PM

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QUOTE
i couldn't agree on that, i brought cable for their characteristic and sound and not look. Ya networking might teach u how to spot a bad cable, but it doesn't teach you how to spot a good or bad sounded cable. It's your ear which can decide that.

Since you care about the look of the cable rather than listen to them, then i don't suppose your ear can make much decision. Hope you enjoy looking at your system


They're all the same. Trust me. Math and subjectivism don't match. Math is a priori which all things derive their foundations from. To me, copper is copper, and mind you the bandwidth being used by the audio spectrum is only from 20 to 20khz, baseband digital has less to work with in even smaller operating windows than audio. Mind you some using Belden's top of the line CAT5E and braided them for crosstalk and uniform dispersion have compared them to stuff costing thousands of ringgit.

In this case, the math and my ears say the same thing if interference isn't an issue, heck my brain says it. It says "you're hearing things" tongue.gif

I rather go through a checklist of the above then it comes to cable before the "sound"

- Handling characteristics
- Flexibility
- Oxidizational preference
- Strenght of contact grip
- Kewl Look laugh.gif

I'm not even bothering with networking specifics when it comes to audio cable like

- Capacitance
- Resistance
- Inductance
- Crosstalk
- Attenuation
- Impedence Mismatch
- Reflection
- Low and High Frequency Shielding (foil/braid)

Why? because no ear can hear it, unless you're planning to make a cable run of 100 meters dahling blush.gif and the fact is, digital data is a few million times faster and more complex. So i kind of select attributes where i need them. It's not like i take into context the shelf life of canned goods, true, it's a factor, but not an important one.

Wanna make your setup sound better? Open it up, look in her circuits and see what you can improve. You'll be amazed. Seriously.

empire23
post Oct 2 2006, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(bsl555 @ Oct 2 2006, 10:14 PM)
Trust you..nope!.. When I sit down and listen attentively, my ears ARE the judge, pushing all that science aside for another time & place. Many matters will defy theory and science.
Consider Kewl looks?.  ohmy.gif  Not me and that includes a fair number of hifi enthusiasts I know well enough.
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I can say placebo faster than most can say snake oil.

Mind you there are good cables out there that are worth the money, like high end beldens or inductor cored ones, heck even Volex cords are great.

Heck listening is fine, but i rather not "perceive" what isn't there. If it sounds better, it sounds better. But i rather trust the numbers than the placebo effect. Heck the sound might be even more degraded, but i enjoy it more. But the point is that it isn't an accurate representation of the recording and not true to the signal.

For example audiophiles like to keep their ICs short, but did you know that being too short introduces reflections courtesy of IM at the connector that could add bad mojo to your source? tongue.gif

Well, i think i trust my ears, but i swear by my math. laugh.gif
empire23
post Oct 3 2006, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(Tachikoma @ Oct 2 2006, 11:42 PM)
First of all, how much do you know about analogue signal transmission? How did you conclude that only digital data is affected by the aforementioned attributes? (inductance and capacitance are key considerations in speaker/headphone/interconnect cable design.. among others) Have you experimented with cables making a statement as bold (literally tongue.gif) as that?
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It stems from a simple idea that analog is made from near infinite resolution (as far as the medium allows for) and that Digital is absolute, being absolute, a single bit error can actually cascade from one point creating a deluge of errors (assuming you don't have CRC, LRC, BCS or Parity), so in the world of Digital, one f-up can whack a whole network, since no ACK sent and crap like that. Although most digital transmissions are error tolerant these days.

I said it isn't a primary concern, just get something with uber low resistance and one that generally shows good qualities and you're fine, because specs aren't as important to audio as they are to digital, mind you CAT5E is designed to make 100m runs with acceptable degradation and as little timing loss as possible. For example; Impedence matching with most speakers is bullcrap because these days source impedence is so low with SS amps, but why do SS amp makers still put it there? To make people go "wow, complex, must be 1337"

Seriously, no ear can hear it.
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread....ight=blind+test
triangle = silver
circles = starquad
square = ratshack

Ratshack, Silver and Starquad compared. Conclusion? All Phail.

Mind you the difference might be there, but it surely isn't perceptible, who knows maybe be an ultra small percentile of people that is, but audiologists still claim otherwise.
user posted image

Maybe environments pose challenges too, for me, 1 24 incher, 2 17in CRTs, 2 Printers, 2 Card readers, ZL 2.0, PS2, 2 Switches, 1 hub, 2 wireless routers, soldering equipment, 1 amp, 1 socket clock, handphone charger, battery charger, MX duo unit and 3 PCs are seriously going to add electrical noise, thus when i do a shielded vs non shielded test i can hear the diff. But who uses as much crap on one table as i do eh? But my point has been, certainly no use in comparing a cheapo Belden and Nordost, same to me if you ask.

I like Cardas cables, they're all blue and stuff, that's why. Plus i cans show off tongue.gif
empire23
post Oct 3 2006, 04:56 PM

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QUOTE(PcWork @ Oct 3 2006, 11:15 AM)
well. if copper is copper, then go out to jalan pasar, buy those RM 2 cable for the hifi which cause you RM 10K.
think about that dude.
if copper is copper, why people borther about 6N 7N, 99.9999% and 99.99999% really made the different?
according to your teory, even normal cheapo cable which has around 95% copper should be sound so different from those 99.9999% copper cable. because no one can really spot the 5% or 1% different. but TRUST ME. those hifi EAR can hear it. =)
i myself as a low end cable seller, Canare-L4E6S.
and i served quite a number of customers which is happy with my cable. if your math applied, and there's really no different amoung cable. probally i should be awarded with the "super-duper con man of the year" . which i cheat their money to spend hundrads on cable buying the same cable they can get in jalan pasar for RM 2. and yet i can make them happy with the cable....

also another example of MATH goes not well in AUdio, is
theorically they claim that FLAC = LOSSLESS.
come over my place, i let you listen FLAC and OGG i rip from original josh groban disc, and i let you listen the original disc, playing using same headphone, same speaker, same sound card, same notebook.
i can gurantee you that FLAC have some losses....because the josh groban song clip at certain place. it;s very minor one . but i can hear it.
i tough my CD rom got problems, so i rip using external drive, and play using the same drive using CD.
result are the same. i have 13 version of josh groban first album in my computer. all ripped with different CD rom, DVD rom, DVD writer. so on so on. but while i play it back USING SAME OPTICAL DRIVE, the one directly play from CD always better.
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Point 1 : I'm comparing stuff againts subjective points, ever heard of the law of diminishing returns? Mind you purity isn't an issue, because it's real world tangible, question is why can companies like Kimber charge 200 percent of companies like Belden, Tyco and Canare when the purity is the same, citing it's "magically" better.

I said copper is copper sometimes, and assuming so, very pure copper until it's negligible. Trust me, they can't, so much do most can't even pass a DBT. I can pass a DBT when comparing shielded and non shielded in my system, because my environment calls for such and improvement. But where do we draw the line?

Point 2 : People are happy because people are satisfied. They see the difference, fine. What i'm questioning is sometimes is their ability to see the difference when the only difference between their new cable and their old one was 0.0000001 percent more purity and they say "WOW"

Point 3 : FLAC is lossless, Reedhamming as far as i'm concerned, Works. If CD CRC weren't perfect, we'd get bit-loss in our files, and heck to me it's the same CD Burner that burns both Audio and my encrypted files. And if one error occurs with the encrypted file, you can kiss em goodbye.

Mabye the trick here is to get your music playing program or disk drive to correct those errors since IIRC, CD Drives don't really bother with error correction when it comes to music (thus the settings in NERO)

If FLAC is lossy, maybe ZIP is too tongue.gif, i blame it on your reader or source, and mind you OGG is Lossy, it goes through processing and MDCT and recoding to FP code. So maybe it cuts out the lack of details and maybe that clipping was in the CD itself. It's just that other encoders weren't good enough to let it slip in.

Like i said, CDs are read on a case by case basis and most errors are just let through instead of corrected in the case of audio.


empire23
post Oct 3 2006, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(valve_300b @ Oct 3 2006, 07:16 PM)
then it boils down to how u define 'hand terminate' and the tools they use. I can't elaborate more as i have never seen them soldering. It is the material of the lead, the connector, the cable and the soldering 'technique' that made the difference. Not sure wat technique, but i think it does matter.

empire23: try google on OCC copper (http://www.vhaudio.com/images/occ.jpg)
and Cryogenic Treatment (http://www.vhaudio.com/cryo.html)

do u think your high end belden will bother doing that on the cable?

i believe there are more treatments and the processes available of how the cable is made being kept secret by cable maker. That's why they don't bother explaining why their 99.99999% silver cable is different from others. They'll prefer your ears to do the judgement. Of course in your case, it doesn't matter smile.gif cause mathematically and physically, to you they are the same. As long as you put some exotic shoe lace to beautify it, it's great to you smile.gif

eventually i have tried the DIY cat5 with some cheapo made in china OFC cat5 cable, and it sucks smile.gif the sound is bright, and edgy. I won't bother trying it with belden.

Again, theory and science doesn't you how to make thing sounds nice. That is why there is no such software which can evaluate whether a music sound nice or not. Why don't u try explaining with maths and physics how to make audio sounds good without listening to it smile.gif how to tell if Emi Fujita's voice is better or Cai Qin without listening to it smile.gif
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Belden Does Cryo treat cables lah dahling. Not for sound, but for durability. And if done by ametuers, Cryo treatment results in temperature shock. Ever see what happens when you smelt steel and then dip in ice cold water. All you do is let the crystals refall in place in a controlled manner, they certainly increase hardness, but how they affect signal loss?

Well here's an example of what belden does sell, the Belden 1506A, mind you it's more expensive than Kimber's offering but it is a fine piece of engineering, with all the specs needed.

For example Nordost advertises 66 percent the speed of light velocity for their cables, yet Belden gets 86 percent for their 4A. So, it's either someone is playing the numbers game or someone is lying. Question is, who? tongue.gif

I know how to see whether a cable sounds good but people wont listen. laugh.gif

Signal at Source = Signal at Output, Done. Now that's accuracy for you. And mind you a simple Tektronik Signal Analyzer will do that for you. Mind you the soul of audiophilia, which has been long forgotten mind you is the objective of getting a Perfect Representation of the source (be it concert recording or whatnots)

I'm joining alamaklor's team transparency lol. Back to the soul of audiophilia!
empire23
post Oct 6 2006, 12:28 AM

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Nope, it's a karaoke cable IIRC. Because Mics are terminated with the XLR and the amps are terminated with the 1/4
empire23
post Dec 19 2006, 07:08 PM

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Ferrite rings increase inductance, so check the inductance level, extra inductance may affect amps or HPs that rely more on current rather than voltage because Inductance should resist current change (passthrough law factored in), Inductance should increase the cable's protection againts noise but at the same time It WILL affect the sound due to it's relationship with current and resistance.

Suggest getting an inductance value that sweeps above the audible range to filter out crap.
empire23
post Dec 19 2006, 08:35 PM

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QUOTE(PcWork @ Dec 19 2006, 07:15 PM)
BTW. the ferrite ring does not state any value on it, and i called the shop, they also don't know about how much the inductance value for the ferrite ring. is that a way to measure it?
user posted image
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Get an inductance meter, most out there aren't too expensive. Look for meters bearing LC, RCL (the L signifies the ability to measure Inductance, just like C means capacitance). If you want to do it the hardcore way (very not recommended), you will need a Signal generator and other hoohah. Easiest it to get a meter Or the choke's designation from the manufacturer (some chokes are designed to block Audio, some designed to filter out different signal ranges, so beware)
empire23
post Dec 27 2006, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(goliath @ Dec 27 2006, 10:21 AM)
Like normal power supply cables, there are 3 colours.. For them to function, they have to be connected to their respective location in the 3-pin plug..

Does this theory applies to this DIY cable too?
*
Yeap, you can't have the live/hot wire going into the ground of your chassis, unless you wanna roast yourself really fast. tongue.gif
empire23
post Dec 31 2006, 07:38 PM

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You know what. No matter how bad LYN audiophiles are when it comes to being anal about cables and stuff, i thank God the Allmighty that we aren't as bad a patrick82.
empire23
post Dec 31 2006, 08:17 PM

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I can never figure out why audiophiles do stupid things sometimes, instead of buying a 3000 USD cable, why doesn't the dumb man just get an Agilent or California Instrument mainframe which totally bypasses TNB and totally rebuilds the sine wave from the ground up? Pure unadulterated sine wave and that man chooses a Nordost.......doh.gif

There are tons of audiophile problems that could be solved with a little headlight fluid, but maybe we just choose to believe things sometimes. Anyways, anyone got a signal generator lol? For some reason i just wanna bust some myths.
empire23
post Jan 16 2007, 04:33 PM

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Anyone wanna follow me and bulk Milspec Quad Shielded Silver Plated Cyro treated Beldens? 35 ringgit a meter from Mouser.com, also buying Schaffner and Corcom PEMs.
empire23
post Jan 19 2007, 10:00 PM

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QUOTE(ijan @ Jan 19 2007, 08:52 PM)
impedance is the sum of resistance and reactance, resistors are pure resistors, they jus do linear attenuation. Voice coils has reactance due to parasitic capacitance/inductance, so watever you do, you would onlly linearly attenuate the sound. However, output stages sometimes require a higher output load to maintain stability, otherwise it would be unstable and generate an increased noise floor.

I still dun see why adding plain resistors in series can give 'multiple, different' sound effects when they are plain..linear. Placebo at its best maybe..
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True, but you have to factor in that inductance can form a cut off via resonance (like a micro low pass filter). Something like making it smoother at the top end because it cuts of some of the spectrum. Although the effect would be very very small, and of course who knows if the resistor drift makes the sound warmer laugh.gif

This post has been edited by empire23: Jan 19 2007, 10:01 PM
empire23
post Jan 20 2007, 05:37 AM

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QUOTE(yrh0413 @ Jan 20 2007, 03:57 AM)
lets say my SR80 is assumed 75ohm. If i change the impedence to 750ohm, or perhaps 7500ohm, will it turn my Grado to a heavenly-sounded headphone?

and also if changes in impedence influence the sound signature as well, why headphones manufacturers don't just get it right before they ship the units out? Why we need to temper the impedence anyway? huh.gif
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Because the manufacturers each have their own sound signature, and i don't think everyone appreciates the frequency cut off because everyone has a different threshold of hearing, so they model around the theoretical maximums of human hearing. Most people aged 30 can only hear until 15khz, so why would grado make HPs that go up to 20? Because if some basket can hear until that and complains.....lol, point is everyone's hearing is different. I'm 20 and i can only hear until 17khz, i'm sure you're different too. And of course we haven't factored in drivers and stuff.

No it won't turn your grado into a heavenly phone lol, it depends on your hearing, to your ears, maybe anything higher than 18khz is perceived as junk that pollutes the sound, to others that can hear better, they might say you're taking their top end away.

Tell you what, the best solution is to test until which level you can hear by using high frequency sound files, and then use the formula given to determine a general RC filter parameter for your phones.

example, i want the cut off to be at 18khz

the formula would go 18000 = 1/ (2x22/7) x R x Capacitance of your HPs (you'll have to look the capacitance up), then just use basic algebra to get your desired R value, then take that value and minus it with the impedence of your phones (R cut off - R phones = R resistor).

Hope it helps
empire23
post Mar 28 2007, 06:52 AM

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Me and Eok were talking, sure we lead ears can't hear the difference between cables, but we surely do agree that from an engineering standpoint, superior cabling can be made with enough knowledge. I sure can't hear or can't see the point of building a BMW M6 to drive around the jammed streets of Kuala Lumpur....butbutbut.....it's there and it's a dream.

The price point is high since i've relegated this to be my best work with no real expenses spared. I'll be building building a 3 meter IC, finished depending on my finances to the highest of standards. So here's a list to design goals.

- Minimum Resistance (but enough to kill off reflections)
- Zero Inductive Coupling
- Minimum Impedence mismatch
- Minimum Reflection
- Optimized Conductor use
- Maximum RFI and EMI rejection
- Minimum Inherent body noise
- Minimal handling
- 80dB of 100khz Attenuation
- Intererence free dedicated ground
- Minimized temperature coupling (this part i seriously don't know how to achieve, besides putting heat sinks on the damned thing)

The base core idea is simple, 2 cores of silver wire (best material for low resistance) within clear teflon insulation given the maximum twist ratio without resorting to flat cabling (that becomes a big ass antenna), which then are then twisted with another pair of silver wires in teflon.

If possible here i will pad it with some sort of polyeurathane foam, but so far i have been unable to find a source. It reduces handling noise and increase temp insulation, keeping the wire from heating up due to other sources that can cause thermal agitation and noise. But we'll skip this.

Ok, now for the noise shielding. I seriously have no source on this, but for filtering out high frequency RFI, this is a must due to it's lack of holes like braid (anything with a high enough lamda can slip through a braid shield). So i devised a plan of using either bulk foil with a polymer backing as a shield, or good old cooking aluminium foil cut into strips and then slotted (following the Belden Method) and then wrapped around the two conductors, and then sealed with a proper epoxy.

Secondary noise shielding will be provided by 95 percent coverage copper braid from Alpha wire, this is to absorb EMI and due to it's low resistance it does have very good qualities even when it comes to higher frequencies.

Tertiary noise shielding is provided by a ferrite core, specifically selected to filter out the frequencies that i have calculated to lack in attentuation from the all the above interference rejection methods. The ferrite core has a curved attenuation ratio depending on frequencies, so the ferrite acts as a spot cleaner, patching up attenuation gaps that i might have missed and/or augmenting the other shields.

Finally added on top is plain strong high AWG PVC jacket. The boundaries between the RCA pluges and the stripped shields after the single cable splits into an L and R plug each is to be shielded with 3M copper embossed tape and the material of each plug is to be as closely matched to the wire as possible (WBT silvers brows.gif)

A point i'd like to make, it's simple why people put connectors with resistance into their ICs, to reduce reflections from the impedence mismatch, depending setup, i don't plan to offer any resistance on the cable itself, although i might add a resistor in series for it. It's trade off between both sides, resistance increases noise, but so does reflections, so i'll let a sampling decide instead. All connections are made with eutectic solder

Lastly the shield ground will be a post meant to be connected to chassis grounded device. This is to make sure no ground contamination occurs. And in theory the noise level should even plunge further.

So i guess that's it. All of the above are generally made with science, matlab (for materials analysis) , mouser, digikey, hakko, qualitek, alpha and 100 percent overkill.

If the first batch goes well, i'll start selling outrageously overpriced ICs to rich goons which keeping them cheap for hobbists! YAY for Capitalism!

This post has been edited by empire23: Mar 28 2007, 06:53 AM
empire23
post Jun 19 2007, 07:57 PM

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ooohh.....manyak seksi brows.gif

Canare ngan Techflex?

 

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