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> The Web Design / Development Industry, Filling up the black hole

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TSetsuko
post May 23 2006, 04:55 PM

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Urm, we can't compare the prices freelancers/agencies obtain in the UK in comparison to Malaysia? why? think of the other prices involved in their culture. food, internet, water, electric and etc. ours isn't as high as theirs.

hmm.. wmsy looks new to me. neva stumbled on it. looks to be a side project by an agency called MowForMedia. well, it'll be interesting to follow and see how they come up to the websites promoting standards later. smile.gif
AnimeAsia
post May 23 2006, 05:12 PM

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Hm.. not really comparing. Just wonder do M'sian designers set an acceptable price range for webdesign. Assuming same quality of work, some can quote RM 500 for 5 pages, some can quote RM 5000.
angeldothack
post May 23 2006, 07:23 PM

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i see. i noticed crynobone site submitted in there, so maybe i thought some of you are behind this site smile.gif a nice effort on pushing the web-standards in malaysia, although i might think it would be nice to push the standards of web-designing or web-development profession in the country at the same time.

i have come to a conclusion of, this industry really needs some 'advancement' in term of status or understanding by malaysians based on my experience, my friends, and others of you here..

This post has been edited by angeldothack: May 23 2006, 07:24 PM
TSetsuko
post May 24 2006, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(AnimeAsia @ May 23 2006, 05:12 PM)
Hm.. not really comparing. Just wonder do M'sian designers set an acceptable price range for webdesign. Assuming same quality of work, some can quote RM 500 for 5 pages, some can quote RM 5000.
*
well, think about these things when considering the price:
- size of team/company
- experience (years in the industry and technology being used)
- post and after sales service
- your own budget

QUOTE(angeldothack @ May 23 2006, 07:23 PM)
i see. i noticed crynobone site submitted in there, so maybe i thought some of you are behind this site smile.gif a nice effort on pushing the web-standards in malaysia, although i might think it would be nice to push the standards of web-designing or web-development profession in the country at the same time.

i have come to a conclusion of, this industry really needs some 'advancement' in term of status or understanding by malaysians based on my experience, my friends, and others of you here..
*
yup, and the only way to educate most clients is go up to them and tell them, "your website is dying because you're stupid so learn about the standards today and get a new foot in the industry before you lose a leg." tongue.gif

This post has been edited by etsuko: May 24 2006, 10:41 AM
crynobone
post May 24 2006, 06:16 PM

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QUOTE(etsuko @ May 24 2006, 10:40 AM)
yup, and the only way to educate most clients is go up to them and tell them, "your website is dying because you're stupid so learn about the standards today and get a new foot in the industry before you lose a leg." tongue.gif
*
Yes, but we as Malaysia web designer/developer should also support them in encuraging these "movement". After that only our voice will be heard.
TSetsuko
post May 25 2006, 10:38 AM

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Oh, that'll be hard.

All of the supporters of these movements would need to carry a stamp or hammer to knock those other fellows in this field on the head and cane them until they've repented for their sins. tongue.gif

But I think the biggest problem is that we've too many unhappy employees and all of em are just too money hungry to be in this field. loL!
X.E.D
post Jun 15 2006, 08:46 PM

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You know, since I joined LYN and ventured into the A&D category, I've seen unreasonable, or even considered absurd quotes for websites that could be easily made with something called Netobjects Fusion (USD 110)
What I don't get is, what makes these prices so "special"? No, writing in notepad/ elegant code should not be a reason, and it's not like you paid RM2000 for royalty free images.
RM500-600 for a static site... ouch.
Dynamic sites... RM1000+... WTF...
Something that uses Perl scripting+ Dynamic content+ lots of bells and whistles... sad.gif
ikram_zidane
post Jun 15 2006, 10:39 PM

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you're saying this.... you are ?? a designer as well... i know how to do websites unlike normal bussiness-making clients...

sometimes... the design.. the logo... etc2..

and there are more really.. SEO, web accessibility , web usuability... this is really for 'valueable' designer..
mclelun
post Jun 15 2006, 10:48 PM

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because everyone is greedy and want to make alot of money very quick. hehe
TSetsuko
post Jun 16 2006, 12:21 AM

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QUOTE(X.E.D @ Jun 15 2006, 08:46 PM)
You know, since I joined LYN and ventured into the A&D category, I've seen unreasonable, or even considered absurd quotes for websites that could be easily made with something called Netobjects Fusion (USD 110)
What I don't get is, what makes these prices so "special"? No, writing in notepad/ elegant code should not be a reason, and it's not like you paid RM2000 for royalty free images.
RM500-600 for a static site... ouch.
Dynamic sites... RM1000+... WTF...
Something that uses Perl scripting+ Dynamic content+ lots of bells and whistles...  sad.gif
*
I'm going to explain this issue as shortly as I can.

Firstly there are 2 main types of companies in this business:
1. The ones who do it for the love and quality.
2. The ones who do it for the easy money and large market of bimbo clients.

Now, Type 1 is as picky as the client when it comes to a design and etc for their website. They look at the client's website as more than just an online presence and try to help the client take it further.

Type 2 aren't as picky and are most likely the ones who'll buy and learn the Fusion 9 software while selling their services to clients. They want the easy money and they know that there are lots of bimbo clients. So, they make more money.

However, if the client ever hears what their website lacking from a friend who hired a Type 1 then Type 2 won't have hope for future jobs from the clients friends aka referrals. So what does Type 2 do? Prey on the other bimbo clients still available.

If you still don't understand why do clients pay me more than RM4000 to develop their website, let me try to tell you why though I should kill anyone who reads this after as its part of companyies secrets.

1. Consultation to discuss with clients the strategy involved for their website.
2. Customized design based on the clients & their customers requirements.
3. Development that supports website standards. (I couldn't find any part of Fusion 9 talking about website standards)
4. Customized system based on the clients website. (if u offer too much freedom, they'll ruin the strategy)

Each company in Type 1 or agencies like XM, XiMnet, NetInfinium, Arachnid, (if) Interactive and etc charge clients a pricey fee not because they'd like to but because they have to.

If you're a doctor, do you charge patients only RM10 every time they see you? No, right? Why? Because you feel that your life is worth more than money and more than a website? doh.gif

Your website is your company which is also your baby or your boss's baby if you're the one liasing. You care for your baby as much as your life and you want the best for it although you know you don't want to spend too much or you'll make both of you die at the same time.

The reason why I charge my clients RM4000+ is because I value their website like it's my baby or my life. I value their customers as much as they do. I commit to their website so much that the clients sometimes don't understand what we do for them.

The other reason why agencies can charge some clients especially MNCs RM10k-100k for 1 project is because it's part of a marketing campaign. It's a huge package thrown in.

So tell me, does Fusion 9 or any of these owners of Fusion 9 do all this for clients?

or are they all just Type 2 companies? wink.gif

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jun 16 2006, 12:24 AM
wantanseller
post Jun 16 2006, 03:28 PM

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QUOTE(X.E.D @ Jun 15 2006, 08:46 PM)
You know, since I joined LYN and ventured into the A&D category, I've seen unreasonable, or even considered absurd quotes for websites that could be easily made with something called Netobjects Fusion (USD 110)
What I don't get is, what makes these prices so "special"? No, writing in notepad/ elegant code should not be a reason, and it's not like you paid RM2000 for royalty free images.
RM500-600 for a static site... ouch.
Dynamic sites... RM1000+... WTF...
Something that uses Perl scripting+ Dynamic content+ lots of bells and whistles...  sad.gif
*
Well, more power to you then since all the potential clients would flock to Netobjects Fusion users like you. I supposed it's the same reasons people pay psychiatrist to just 'listen', programmers to just type, photographers to just snap a few pictures. Maybe labourers should be paid millions because they seem to do the most work of all. While you're at it, why don't you ask the reason people are paying RM2000 for royalty free images?

Dynamic sites for RM1000? Bullshit.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
X.E.D
post Jun 16 2006, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(wantanseller @ Jun 16 2006, 04:28 PM)
Well, more power to you then since all the potential clients would flock to Netobjects Fusion users like you. I supposed it's the same reasons people pay psychiatrist to just 'listen', programmers to just type, photographers to just snap a few pictures. Maybe labourers should be paid millions because they seem to do the most work of all. While you're at it, why don't you ask the reason people are paying RM2000 for royalty free images?

Dynamic sites for RM1000? Bullshit.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
*
Well if the logic goes, I should be making millions on art pieces at 15yrs old.
(I do it for love, and my stuff isn't awful at all. Ouch?)
I don't use Fusion, it's just an interesting contrast to bring up.

And for stock photography...
Take Taiwan-based ImageDJ and Imagefarm as comparisions:
I-DJ has awsome images at >USD100 per collection.
IF has awful scans of what seemed to be half-hearted images taken using an APS (well, this is not true smile.gif But it annoys me almost to make it true) at USD200+.

On the other hand, Digital Vision (part of Getty images now) sells most of it's CDs at USD500+. The quality is awsome, but is there anyone forking out money for 100 images of the same theme?

Money doesn't always get you what you expected. Lots of people don't charge HYPER for more talent, which would be the result of the majority of internet projects (Wikipedia, anyone?)

And no, using a cheaper app doesn't mean the website would deteriorate in quality. It might appear differently in different browsers, but you could get some more code in to counter that. Simillarly, it doesn't give a gurantee that Dreamweaver would output unbreakable code even with its premium price tag.
I'd love to get Digital Vision stock collections, but IF ImageDJ collections do the job well enough, who gives a damn if they shot pictures without using SLRs?

Which is, why would I get a person who charges RM2000 for my personal flash site when a person who does it under RM200 outperforms him/her? So it HAS to be the latter person wouldn't give a damn about what I want, what I need? Nope. smile.gif

TBH I might be underestimate web designers' work. But I care for how the website works- in design first. And what I saw definately does NOT justify the price.
wantanseller
post Jun 16 2006, 05:02 PM

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And so therefore you found a person who overestimates his worth? Nobody is forcing you to pay for an expensive service. You CHOOSE to pay them. Same goes for web designers. If you prefer to get a RM200 design work, so be it. Paying for a RM2000 work that is lousier than a RM200 work is the result of your own failure in recognizing your designer's capabilities.

To be fair, there is no fixed standard. How people choose to charge is their choice and that choice is based on many factors such as marketing, sales, SEO, programming, scripting, designing, licensing, etc.

Or did you just think web designers pop up photoshop, load a downloaded template, slice, save as html and get paid?

general rule of thumb, pay peanuts, get monkeys
though you might be lucky enough to get a smart monkey, good for you.

This post has been edited by wantanseller: Jun 16 2006, 05:07 PM
Ifent
post Jun 16 2006, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(X.E.D @ Jun 16 2006, 04:35 PM)
Well if the logic goes, I should be making millions on art pieces at 15yrs old.
(I do it for love, and my stuff isn't awful at all. Ouch?)
I don't use Fusion, it's just an interesting contrast to bring up.

And for stock photography...
Take Taiwan-based ImageDJ and Imagefarm as comparisions:
I-DJ has awsome images at >USD100 per collection.
IF has awful scans of what seemed to be half-hearted images taken using an APS (well, this is not true smile.gif But it annoys me almost to make it true) at USD200+.

On the other hand, Digital Vision (part of Getty images now) sells most of it's CDs at USD500+. The quality is awsome, but is there anyone forking out money for 100 images of the same theme?

Money doesn't always get you what you expected. Lots of people don't charge HYPER for more talent, which would be the result of the majority of internet projects (Wikipedia, anyone?)

And no, using a cheaper app doesn't mean the website would deteriorate in quality. It  might appear differently in different browsers, but you could get some more code in to counter that. Simillarly, it doesn't give a gurantee that Dreamweaver would output unbreakable code even with its premium price tag.
I'd love to get Digital Vision stock collections, but IF ImageDJ collections do the job well enough, who gives a damn if they shot pictures without using SLRs?

Which is, why would I get a person who charges RM2000 for my personal flash site when a person who does it under RM200 outperforms him/her? So it HAS to be the latter person wouldn't give a damn about what I want, what I need? Nope.  smile.gif

TBH I might be underestimate web designers' work. But I care for how the website works- in design first. And what I saw definately does NOT justify the price.
*
Agree with you rclxms.gif
dinodog_Jr
post Jun 16 2006, 06:48 PM

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to me, there are designer know how to promote himself very well. But the artwork is just so-so standard.
So, the price can mark up higher thru his speaking ability.

Still der are some low-esteem but talented designer offers lower price in humble. Main reason is lack of communication tricks. Maybe shortage of financial or the so called Passion.

I dun really care bout how skillful of ur organised minded, powerful language or potential strategy after website built.<-- This is from the heart & mind of the Client.

Dat's y sometimes u haf to prepare samples site/work to convince ur client either u worth RM200 or RM2000 value.
Unless, the designer u pay for is introduce by friend. Then even RM4000 u will think must be a good return work.

Most of us trust our friend's choice for sometimes.



TSetsuko
post Jun 16 2006, 10:36 PM

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QUOTE(X.E.D @ Jun 16 2006, 04:35 PM)
Which is, why would I get a person who charges RM2000 for my personal flash site when a person who does it under RM200 outperforms him/her? So it HAS to be the latter person wouldn't give a damn about what I want, what I need? Nope.  smile.gif

TBH I might be underestimate web designers' work. But I care for how the website works- in design first. And what I saw definately does NOT justify the price.
*
I'm not going to touch on photography and those sites selling them because that can be a whole topic of its own.

However, because my focus is web that's why I'd like to try my best in explaining why some people charge more and they get it for all their worth. Not to mention, it's true half the time in Malaysia you pay peanuts to most people you'll only a monkey's work. I'd also like to say this debate gives me great practice as influential power when I try to convince and instil confidence of clients in me in future. So thank you for such a great debate started. smile.gif

Okie, let's take your example of a person who charges you RM2000 (Mr A) and another at RM200 (Mr B) for a personal Flash site. Let's also assume both of these are legit and honest people who love what they do. Let's also consider the fact that you're a designer (Mr C) who is hiring another designer to help you do something.

Mr A has 10 years experience and he's a qualified Art Director. So to him, he charges you by the experience and the knowledge he has to share with you on the best action to take for your personal Flash site. He's been in the field and he's been through it all.

Mr B is only a student or a fresh graduate trying to break into the business. He knows that if he charges too high, he won't get the job. And what if he doesn't, no money to eat, no money for rent and etc. Mr B outperforms Mr A in terms of the new ideas he's seen by surfing around more and knows how to impress you by implementing those new funky type stuff.

Now, here's the finale. If you're a designer and you hire designers to help you design something, you'll never be 100% satisfied with what that designer has to offer because your vision isn't aligned with his. Mr B impresses you more because he's cheap and he so calls 'outperforms' Mr A. As for Mr A, well, to him is that he'll most likely take it as not a lost but a win in relief that he doesn't have to handle a case where he's not appreciated.

And all of this happens even when we're assuming both Mr A and B are legit and honest business people.

I can tell you now that some agencies who quote clients even from the government are over pricey. But why do these government clients give in and throw money at these unworthy agencies. I wish I knew. I can only assume because they've won the heart of the client with suggestions and marketing.

When I was a fresh grad, I asked the same question as you at one point. I asked why and how can agencies get so much money from clients and why clients don't mind spending. Well, through what I've learned and heard from colleagues:
1. Clients demand quality and results.
2. Clients trust a brand than a price.
3. Clients listen to their friends.
4. Clients know what its like to run a company with a workforce.
5. And other things I'm still learning..

I'm getting tired of explaining this issue because it feels like website design really doesn't have an understood value in Malaysia. It's getting tiresome that I'm feeling more like I'm preaching for you to consider than to understand the quotation from all aspects and not just the design or the value.

So let me end this long entry with a breakdown of costs some companies take to survive..
1. Pay company fees (SDN BHD, annual and monthly fees) - 2300-5k+
2. Company office rent (per month) - 2500-5k+ depending on size
3. Company materials (stationary) - 1000 per month
4. Company equipment (software/hardware) - 10k a year (if there are 10-15 workers)
5. Company employees (assume each 1.5k and 10 people) - 15000 per month
6. Comapny misc expenses (petrol..etc) - 1-5k per month

If you do the maths, you can see why an agency will quote clients at a much higher price. The reason some are higher or lower depends on the risk, the value and the company they are handling.

If a freelancer earns RM4000 for each project, it could be because he's got what clients want and believe. If he only charges a client RM200, several things can occur on its own that I don't want to touch.

I'm not going to tell you the peanuts proverb but I'm going to ask you to try and look at this from different angles, views and possibilities on why people charge the way they charge and how come they can charge the way they charge.

Every business runs on a different strategy. smile.gif

Sorry for such a long and tiresome post everyone.
wantanseller
post Jun 17 2006, 02:19 AM

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Problem is that a lot of people think of web design as a garage company thingy where web designers don't have liabilities and assets. Worse still, their work is percieved as of little value as demonstrate by our dear thread starter. They get one fella who churns out average design for RM200 and expects everyone else to do the same. I'm sorry but did it occur to you that web design is a business? You know... earn money?

It's like we went back to the dark ages again... this isn't a web design issue, a lot of these people are seriously lacking the the economics department and much less in business.


EDIT: notworthy.gif to etsuko for his patience biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by wantanseller: Jun 17 2006, 02:20 AM
TSetsuko
post Jun 17 2006, 10:00 AM

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No worries. I'm actually trying to get Wiley Chin from XiMNet to guest write an article for me about what she thinks of this whole issue. Then i'll put in on my blog.

Hope she churn an article out. smile.gif
alextan99
post Jun 17 2006, 10:15 AM

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if you are not happy then dun get the service, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to take their servive and whatever the quote is up to them. No matter if they are paying a dollar or few thousand for some images, its because they are not capable to doing the job that is y they outsource right?
mclelun
post Jun 17 2006, 11:30 AM

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I think my post earlier is too rude that said everyone want to make money.

wantanseller use a better word for it, web design is business biggrin.gif

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