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> The Web Design / Development Industry, Filling up the black hole

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eddychstu
post Apr 9 2006, 01:49 PM

Why so serious?
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nice topic! why not ask the mod to pin this thread?

as an interactive designer and a freelancer myself, i'm quite aware of the market value of our kind.

there are several reasons of why we tend to be paid in a lower rate when compare to other countries lik US, Japan, Hk or even SG.

- a lot of self claimed "freelancer"
- the quality of the delivery
- professionalism of freelancing
- s/w piracy
- customers lack of proper education of design industry

so, since msia is still on the way of creating our own design identity, i think the best way is to upgrade ourself in terms of creative sense, the trend of web design and the way of servicing.

again, plagarism is a big no no tongue.gif
i'm not reffering to the earlier case of arachnid

This post has been edited by eddychstu: Apr 9 2006, 01:52 PM
TSetsuko
post Apr 9 2006, 06:41 PM

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QUOTE(momochi zabuza @ Apr 9 2006, 12:17 PM)
another sad cases is the existance of middle-man. it's ok if person B that receive job from A and the B paying C with ratio 30:70 but that not always happen. my friend experienced that he doing php website for 5k ( 5k seems big for a student  drool.gif ) but the actual payment is 14k blink.gif . so the friend of him has already eat 9k while he need to struggle to make sure the website reaching the value of 14k and he also need to see the A ( the client ) not the middleman. shakehead.gif  i'm not saying being a middleman is a crime but middleman suppose to share reasonable ratio like 30:70, 20:80 like that.  unsure.gif

culture i guess ph34r.gif
*
thanks for relating your stories. i hope the others will too as well. as for the middleman scenario, trust me that there are many like that in Malaysia. the ones in Malaysia especially are the ones who will always expect a fee from a referral. in Malaysia, it's like there's nothing other than money. it's like everyone is living in poverty.

QUOTE(eddychstu @ Apr 9 2006, 01:49 PM)
again, plagarism is a big no no tongue.gif
i'm not reffering to the earlier case of arachnid
*
Lol! Good note there. tongue.gif

I think as far as clients degrading you and value in price just because you use pirated software is just unprofessional and immature. it's like a kid finding whatever weakness or loophole to get their parents to do something for them.
momochi zabuza
post Apr 9 2006, 11:52 PM

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ermm.. i have googling for arachnid and it shows a meaning of spider... what are the earlier case of arachnid ? ( if it is a secret then PM me.. if dun wan to tell at all forget it )tongue.gif


eddychstu
post Apr 10 2006, 01:00 AM

Why so serious?
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QUOTE(etsuko @ Apr 9 2006, 06:41 PM)

I think as far as clients degrading you and value in price just because you use pirated software is just unprofessional and immature. it's like a kid finding whatever weakness or loophole to get their parents to do something for them.
*
no, this is not the idea, the thing is when everyone is using a down to zero cost s/w, they tend not to appreciate the property(s/w) they owned simply becoz 'cheap'. eg. i can design a website using a $5 s/w, so even if i charge the client $50 i still get to earn $45...see?

a standard corporate charge is so much different from freelance charge not only becoz of the men power involved, it is the investment of s/w that doest matter..whoever work in a interactive agency/design house will know the huge cost invested in s/w annually.

i agree some client might be using that as a nego tool to lower our price but the main concern here is we cant deny that we can develop something within a cheap cost.

QUOTE(momochi zabuza @ Apr 9 2006, 11:52 PM)
ermm.. i have googling for arachnid and it shows a meaning of spider... what are the earlier case of arachnid ? ( if it is a secret then PM me.. if dun wan to tell at all forget it )tongue.gif
*
laugh.gif let by gone be by gone
TSetsuko
post Apr 10 2006, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(eddychstu @ Apr 10 2006, 01:00 AM)
no, this is not the idea, the thing is when everyone is using a down to zero cost s/w, they tend not to appreciate the property(s/w) they owned simply becoz 'cheap'. eg. i can design a website using a  $5 s/w, so even if i charge the client $50 i still get to earn $45...see?

a standard corporate charge is so much different from freelance charge not only becoz of the men power involved, it is the investment of s/w that doest matter..whoever work in a interactive agency/design house will know the huge cost invested in s/w annually.

i agree some client might be using that as a nego tool to lower our price but the main concern here is we cant deny that we can develop something within a cheap cost.
laugh.gif let by gone be by gone
*
i still think this is something immature, unprofessional and unappreciated to do to someone just because the person is a student and doesn't have a team of 20-30 backing him.

if a high school kid showed me he has skills in 3D that was at the level of an experience designer in Malaysia, disregarding he's a student or used some pirated software to do it, i'll still pay him the amount I think his skills are worth. it might not be as much as a paid employee but definetely more than what he'd think he'd get. smile.gif

then from there, it's up to the student to decide whether he should charge the clients about the same or allow them to push him around just cause he's a 'small fry'.
BlueSilver
post Apr 10 2006, 10:51 AM

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but the problem is not all clients think like you etsuko. I think it's like 1 out of 100. LOL...
TSetsuko
post Apr 10 2006, 04:57 PM

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well, have you tried asking an australian or american or even some japanese/thailand/india person what they'd think about such a scenario of a student who's got the skills of an experienced employee.

humiliating is one thing.. trying to degrade a student who's better than an employee is just plain hilarious. tongue.gif
TSetsuko
post Apr 13 2006, 06:38 PM

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I'd like us to discuss regarding Some Malaysians are Shameless especlially since it happened in our own forums.

Sigh, too bad the last post of that thread was edited though.
momochi zabuza
post May 13 2006, 02:41 AM

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pump the bump again hehehe !!
TSetsuko
post May 13 2006, 09:29 AM

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lol..

well, we could discuss the thing about email newsletters..?

will it be replaced because its considered spam..? will RSS replace newsletters..?
momochi zabuza
post May 13 2006, 04:27 PM

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i think RSS will be efficient since nowadays there's been a lot of widgets, and application that utilize RSS. i remembered 1st time i'm using desktopsidebar that has RSS slideshow where can read all those bulletin since 2003. if i'm not mistaken that time RSS reader applications till exist just a few. but also.. newsletter still hv to exist because not all people like we are, facing the computer 24 hours but for people on the go that check his emails 2 times a week, newsletter still important.

so i say.. till all people utilize thier gadgets and can access to read RSS everywhere, newsletter till have to exist.
TSetsuko
post May 14 2006, 06:55 PM

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very strong points indeed momochi. smile.gif

RSS was never a tool explained to anyone when they learned how to surf the website hence the prefered utilization of reading email newsletters that's much texting.
crynobone
post May 14 2006, 07:14 PM

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The idea is there but user acceptance doesn't change over night, but progress is slowly growing where a lot of RSS driven system are being developed.

There are set of users who will choose one out of two, with RSS now some of the user might have a more suitable method to get latest info without having to read email all day long. For me personally, I never submit any newsletter form regardless how informative they are.

I don't like wasting time delete an email that in my opinion not relevant to me. With RSS, I can choose to read or ignore it and that's it, no hasle. But then again why must make it a fight, both have it pros and cons. It just likes DVD vs CD or USB Drive vs Floppy Drive. Even newer are better but to change human acceptance take time.
TSetsuko
post May 15 2006, 10:17 AM

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true.. maybe it'll come a day emails can be read like RSS feeds. tongue.gif all you need is the headline or an excerpt of the summarize form for the email.

come to think of it.. i wonder if there could ever be change because online consumers are increasing but yet they feel they should subscribe to the newsletter for future updates.

i wonder if we provided an RSS and newsletter function together, which will be the most utilized by these online consumers. hmm..
momochi zabuza
post May 15 2006, 11:10 AM

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i think still newsletter. i think la since i oso subscribe to soem newsletter where the update is each week.. if we hv a widgets to a site that update only 4 times a month... that will be a waste.
Stupid Khor
post May 15 2006, 03:51 PM

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ermm... nice to meet ya all, khor here...
since I don't have any working experience yet, I would like to ask some questions about free-lancing here...

if I'm not mistaken, mostly you'll only create websites with ordinary interface, no stylish animation no creative presentation like those in thefwa.com due to the limited time and for easier update right?
have you ever think of or received a task to design such website, stylish & artistic one, which you can put whatever creative inside it?
and is there any chance to receive one?
is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
how much would you charge for that?
and how fast would you finish it?

and another question is how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
which skill is the most important for the current market?
RSS? ASP? PHP? JSP? .net? AJAX? JAVA? Javascript? Actionscript?
how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
and how fast is the speed you required? one day for a simple website?

haha... sorry, too curious...... tongue.gif
I'm stepping into this industry, so I guess I need to know more......

tidy up a bit :

1. have you ever think of or received a task to design stylish such website?
2. is there any chance to receive one?
3. is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
4. how much would you charge for that?
5. how fast would you finish that kind of stuff?

6. how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
7. would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
8. which skill is the most important for the current market?
9. how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
10. how fast is the speed you required?

thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks... laugh.gif
crynobone
post May 15 2006, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(etsuko @ May 15 2006, 10:17 AM)
true.. maybe it'll come a day emails can be read like RSS feeds. tongue.gif all you need is the headline or an excerpt of the summarize form for the email.
*
GMail has implement such thing, but there a lot of thing other than that which we need to look into first and mainly it all about SECURITY of the data. It is norm to us that RSS isn't suitable for confidential information.

QUOTE(Stupid Khor @ May 15 2006, 03:51 PM)
if I'm not mistaken, mostly you'll only create websites with ordinary interface, no stylish animation no creative presentation like those in thefwa.com due to the limited time and for easier update right?
have you ever think of or received a task to design such website, stylish & artistic one, which you can put whatever creative inside it?
and is there any chance to receive one?
is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
how much would you charge for that?
and how fast would you finish it?


Art is different in each presentation, we have style for printable item, we have style for standalone application, we have style for web based. There are limit which we should follow to ensure that our product is not only catchy but at the same time suitable for it's purpose.

QUOTE(Stupid Khor @ May 15 2006, 03:51 PM)
and another question is how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
which skill is the most important for the current market?
RSS? ASP? PHP? JSP? .net? AJAX? JAVA? Javascript? Actionscript?
how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
and how fast is the speed you required? one day for a simple website?


Personally my work evolved around PHP, AJAX and JS but I'm a web-based software developer, except for my current blogware CMS which would be using RSS, PHP, AJAX and Javascript.
TSetsuko
post May 16 2006, 11:55 AM

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QUOTE(Stupid Khor @ May 15 2006, 03:51 PM)
tidy up a bit :

1. have you ever think of or received a task to design stylish such website?
2. is there any chance to receive one?
3. is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
4. how much would you charge for that?
5. how fast would you finish that kind of stuff?

6. how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
7. would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
8. which skill is the most important for the current market?
9. how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
10. how fast is the speed you required?

thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks... laugh.gif
*
1. I don't really get what you're trying to ask. but i guess if you're talking about design then all clients require a different type of feel or theme for their website most of the time. that's one of the reasons pre-made templates suXor.

2. Opportunities to be commissioned in designing a website comes from referrals and people who've like what you did and why you do it the way yo do. smile.gif I've had some people approaching me just to design website templates but many turned me down due to the cost I charge. tongue.gif

3. Just to design website templates as a job? Nope. You won't be able to make a living like that unless of course you plan to do a side business selling them on Template Monster or something.

4. Hmm, I actually shouldn't be telling you this but since I've been frank with the community. Minimum is RM500 just for the design without the work file. But you have to consider the price based on experience, skillset, occupation and etc. smile.gif Always do business honestly.

5. It depends on the client because deadlines can affect prices. But I think most of the time I take about 2 weeks or less depending on my design level aura.

6. Depends on the client again. Some don't have the money to afford a CMS and some prefer having someone update things for them. smile.gif

7. I've got an in-house programmer for myself.

8. Urm, I think the marketing skill because you'll have to put up with some of the bs clients request or want from you. However, if business aside, minimum skills you need today are HTML, CSS, Flash, Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver and extra stuff if you can learn them.

9. Luckily for me it's been at least 1 request a month. But I'm hoping to increase to at least 4 in the future. smile.gif

10. Don't get what you're asking here as well. If you're asking us as a client how fast do we want things done, well.. i think website templates shouldn't take longer than 2 weeks max. Development 3 weeks max.

This post has been edited by etsuko: May 16 2006, 11:57 AM
angeldothack
post May 23 2006, 12:22 PM

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erm, maybe out of topic.. but, does any of you aware of this site http://www.wsmy.org named Web Standards Malaysia. Is this some kind of official movement?

This post has been edited by angeldothack: May 23 2006, 12:24 PM
AnimeAsia
post May 23 2006, 01:39 PM

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I've seen that it's a trend for companies or even freelancers in the UK to quote their price in their website. I can see that their market rate is much more higher than M'sia.

Their pricing based on number of pages, flash, scripting etc. Lesser pages will have a higher cost for each page and vice versa. I wonder do designers in M'sia set such standards or guidelines for webdesign charges.

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