Moyes turn ash into gold.. example, Rooney, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Lescott, Baines, Howard, Gibson, Rodwell, Heitinga... while, Liverpool turn gold into ash.. example, Caroll, Henderson, Maxi, El hadji diouf, Babel, Dossena, Voronin, Aquilani, Josemi, Morientes, KEANE!! with tat bunch of money, i think Moyes can build 2 teams tat can compete in top 10...
+!
Wit that kind of f$nds, Moyes really can build 2 great teams.
Moyes turn ash into gold.. example, Rooney, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Lescott, Baines, Howard, Gibson, Rodwell, Heitinga... while, Liverpool turn gold into ash.. example, Caroll, Henderson, Maxi, El hadji diouf, Babel, Dossena, Voronin, Aquilani, Josemi, Morientes, KEANE!! with tat bunch of money, i think Moyes can build 2 teams tat can compete in top 10...
but of course, Liverpool do make good signing, Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... any1 else? or maybe "The Actor" - Suarez??
Based on recent games (or most of the time?), I still don't understand why Hendo is 'too afraid' to pass the ball forward and make his own run. He prefers to pass the ball sideways or doesn't have any clue on what to do with the ball when there's no one near him. Normally ended up tackled by opponent when he held the ball for too long.
Talking about being played out of position (RW) doesn't really make sense because he did quite well with crosses from that position during his time at Sunderland. He did well also from the middle with good passes/assists to strikers.
So what's actually happen now? Is it really him or forced by Kenny's instructions, I wonder.
Based on recent games (or most of the time?), I still don't understand why Hendo is 'too afraid' to pass the ball forward and make his own run. He prefers to pass the ball sideways or doesn't have any clue on what to do with the ball when there's no one near him. Normally ended up tackled by opponent when he held the ball for too long.
Talking about being played out of position (RW) doesn't really make sense because he did quite well with crosses from that position during his time at Sunderland. He did well also from the middle with good passes/assists to strikers.
So what's actually happen now? Is it really him or forced by Kenny's instructions, I wonder.
That's a symptom of a player low in confidence. How many of our players can you say have been playing at their full potential this season ? Lucas did until he got injured, which also severely affected Adam's form. Skrtel started playing really well until Agger got injured. Suarez played well up until the evra malarkey. Enrique has no one to compete for the left back, i reckon his form deteriorated due to complacency. Downing performance has been up and down. So when you consider all of this, how do you think a new player like Henderson is going to pick up his game ?
Joined: Sep 2011
From: Behind the computer screen.
QUOTE(koolspyda @ Apr 10 2012, 09:16 AM)
yup, sometimes i have a hard time telling other fans about the success of barcelona (today) boils down to the CONTINUITY of the football laid down by johan cruff - frank rijkaard.
roy undone all work by rafa. besides the shitting on our squad morale, it was back to "agger, kick the ball out of park"
maybe there is no resemblance of KD play and move to rafa's but at least the key players (who remained) are playing in first 11 (bar kuyt).
The first year is always the toughest (technically its KD 'first' year, rafa first year, we didnt qualify except staging a biggest CL win & a backdoor to the following year CL as champions, and we proved it was no fluke by returning into CL final again) what would have happened if even in the first year rafa got sacked because we failed to nick 4th?
Again comparing roy to KD is... Roy was plummeting LFc to the ground. we were playing disaster football, players are appalled by his methods, the list goes on..
KD's Lfc despite not getting the points (and losses) aren't playing too shabbily, we just ain't scoring to win games, fine a couple of duds whom we felt aren't meeting our standards. We'll deal with that, i hope KD to deal with that and not just allow FSG and comolli dictate buying players criteria.
I only see adam as KD's 'choice' chase (which unfortunately didnt met expectations), of course henderson, carrol & downing were in that of KD's list too but i suppose if it was "buy english policy" to met the rule, this is whats on the menu
Yes, the Liverpool team under Souness was arguably one of the worst in the club's history until now but I guess Souness also undone the work only for Evans, Houlier and Rafa to rebuild and then had the work undone again under Roy. Now, Kenny Dalglish has a very huge task to rebuild.
I agree with you. While we may not be getting the results we want, at least we've got 'okay' performances which are probably good enough to have won the games.
While I've always liked Downing, I guess playing for Liverpool is a step too far for him. Wished we had signed Ashley Young or Juan Mata instead and yes this can be pointed to KD, so are the signings of Carroll and Adam.
Carroll was a late signing though cause el bastardo decided to hand in a transfer request like 3 days before the windows closed. That's not helping and I don't know about some people but I would have preferred two young strikers at that time.
Maybe Kenny did buy the wrong players in Downing, Adam and Carroll. While Enrique was one of the better purchases, he has been poor in the last few months to be honest. As for Henderson, I actually think he can become a good player. He's started slow, kinda like Lucas in his first 2 years but Henderson surely can pass a ball. People forget he is only 21. Not everyone is a Jack Wilshere or Steven Gerrard.
But at least, the King deserves a chance to undo his mistake, which is the least he deserves after what he has done for the club.
QUOTE(ALeUNe @ Apr 10 2012, 09:22 AM)
1/4 squad, the players signed by King Kenny, are pretty much a flop.
If you TRULY understand the same theory can't be applied to Liverpool and to every manager, then you should not say anything about yield the same results. It is contradicting to begin with.
P/S Barcelona is just an example. Mancini/Mourinho @ Inter Milan. Arrigo Sacchi/Fabio Capallo @ AC Milan. Gerrard Houllier/Rafa Benitez @ Liverpool.
If you truly understand the word 'MAY', then we wouldn't be talking about this.
Like I said I don't know much about Italian football cause I don't enjoy watching it so I can't comment but in Rafa's first season, he didn't have to compete with Tottenham, Newcastle and Manchester City and only Chelsea and Man United were throwing money at that time and he has always been a mastermind when it comes to European football but I guess he needed a bit of luck (maybe something Kenny has been missing) with that 'goal' scored by Garcia against Chelsea and the fact that we were thoroughly outplayed by AC Milan except for 6 minutes.
QUOTE(Rotuham @ Apr 10 2012, 10:14 AM)
My point was if we were going to continue the deadwood trend then why spend millions on it?By your admittance that currently there is deadwood,where is the improvement? Can i ask what is your definition of improvement? Let's not bring in united players,they can afford deadwood because they have a winning mentality and a team with fantastic chemistry.
The difference is Adam, Downing and Carroll have always been decent/good/okay players back in their former clubs. Joe Cole was on a downward trend falling behind in Chelsea's pecking order, Poulsen and Konchesky have always been shit. So signing them made sense instead of the flops like Diouf, Poulsen, Konchesky and such.
Improvement is when we buy 'better' players without selling. In the past so many years, we've had to sell Mascherano, Alonso, Arbeloa and Torres. Granted, the replacements are not any better but it's always going to be difficult to replace players like them at the moment. While the manager can get some stick for selling a player, the problems still lay with Hicks and Gillett.
Do you think if we were not under them, we would have to sell Mascherano, Alonso, Arbeloa and Torres? Maybe not and we'd surely may have added Aguero and Silva to the squad.
Well, Ferguson was given time to achieve that winning squad and all, the same we should give to Kenny (at least one more season).
QUOTE(pingpang @ Apr 10 2012, 12:00 PM)
In any team, there is bound to be some "deadwood" players. Building a better Liverpool team is the order of the day. This is what is facing KD. LFC has been out of the CL for the past 2 or 3 seasons, so the rebuilding / remodelling of the team will be a slow and ardous. But give KD a chance, just like SAF started out with MU in the late 1980s (that time LFC rules the English Football scene)
My analysis : 1) The team style of play have been over-reliant on 1 or 2 players. Nothing wrong with that, as other teams also did that like MU relying on CRonaldo and Rooney, Chelsea relying on Lampard and Terry etc. Whereas KD is trying to instill a system of pass and move, like what Barca or Arsenal is doing and not relying on 1 or 2 players, given time, this system should bear fruit. I hope KD will elevated the youth players from LFC and after 2 or 3 years, the system shold bear fruits. Of course, the current players in the team now like Spearo, Flanagan, Jonjo etc - these are young lads to build the team for the future.
2) LFC used to play (during Houllier and Rafa times) defensive and counter attacking style of football. This type of game is good for fast, pacey strikers (eg. Owen, Torres, Suarez). I believe KD is trying to build a team who plays a controlling type of gam through "pass and move". That's why KD is playing the youngsters even though they may be underperforming in order to built a close knitted team where everyone play to a system. (Like what is happening in Barca who have Iniesta, Xavi, Messi etc.) KD brought in Henderson, Spearo etc to supplement the lack of talent in LFC youth academy....
3) I agree that some of the current buys during KD time is questionable but how much can LFC expect these players after > 6 months with the team from tactical point of view. Adam use to be the "general" in midfield (attacking wise), but here, he support Gerrard and is on a holding role and Carrol came from a team that plays direct football, and with ample supply of good crosses. But is he getting enuf quality crossess at Liverpool?
All in all, this season is definitely gone for LFC in not getting the League Championship except one League Cup trophy and hopefully win it with a FA Cup.
Yes, Ferguson took four season to win his first cup (FA cup) and 7 years to win his first league title. Imagine if they had fired him before that cause he went three years without a trophy? We'll be still sitting on our perch.
One of the biggest problems here still, is the lack of goalscorer. While Suarez has been very prolific in the past, he's been more of a creator here and sometimes I feel he doesn't even trust his teammates that much when he prefers to take that extra man. Can fault him there because I've seen players like that in real life. Imagine if we had put away half of the chances we had. I think we have the lowest conversion rate in the league and to have scored so little and be yet so low, it suggests that we have TONS of shots. And I don't see Andy Carroll as the guy who will be scoring 20 goals a season. And this isn't helped by the fact that Papiss Cisse have scored more than Adam, Downing, Henderson and Gerrard put together (i think).
Apparently, Cruyff got the idea of tiki taka from the Liverpool 1970s-1980s team. I'm not sure but I've seen some people mention that. Funnily enough .. that was the Liverpool team Kenny played in and probably managed.
There's also a lack of pace in the team. We've not got a forward like Torres or wingers like Young and Bale.
I think Kenny still has a huge task. It has to start with the unity in the dressing room which was lost under Roy. Then he has to get the fans, players and owners together. Then he has to get the performances on the pitch. He has done so-so in all of those three criteria. Now he has to get the results, which unfortunately, have not been there. The team isn't shite. I mean, we're able to compete with Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham but it's the mentality we have when it comes to the other 14 teams.
Then confidence and mentality are the problems. The longer the players take to score, the more they get that 'here it comes again' thinking. When you hit the woodwork a couple of times, they get that 'it is one of those days again' feeling.
Also don't you feel something is wrong when .. i mean, this weekend alone, you saw Man United getting a penalty when Ashley Young was offside and dove. The media would be over Suarez all week if it was him instead of Young. Then you see Chelsea scoring two offside goals against Wigan, the team that beat us. Ciise scored an offside goal against us for his second and Danny Simpson blocked the ball off the line with his arm.
I don't like blaming officials but it kinda makes you think about it when Manchester United gets decisions every week, every season in their favour. It's almost as though the FA wants United to win the league.
QUOTE(jimbet1337 @ Apr 10 2012, 05:55 PM)
Based on recent games (or most of the time?), I still don't understand why Hendo is 'too afraid' to pass the ball forward and make his own run. He prefers to pass the ball sideways or doesn't have any clue on what to do with the ball when there's no one near him. Normally ended up tackled by opponent when he held the ball for too long.
Talking about being played out of position (RW) doesn't really make sense because he did quite well with crosses from that position during his time at Sunderland. He did well also from the middle with good passes/assists to strikers.
So what's actually happen now? Is it really him or forced by Kenny's instructions, I wonder.
He's starting out slow like Lucas did, prefering to keep it simple and tidy. Against Villa, he can certainly pass a ball but I can't blame him for keeping it simple when fans are moaning and groaning whenever he loses the ball or plays it backwards but i think he has been playing better when he plays in the centre but I tell you want thing, Kenny playing him on the right, will help him in his development, the same way how Rafa Benitez got the best out of Steven Gerrard and Lucas (by playing him as a DM).
if you look the video, all i can hear is Meireles, Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez name..
Certainly Maxi, Meireles, Kuyt and Suarez can play really well together.. i just cant believe these players helped Kenny so much but they isnt playing or sold..
It was easy to find players to tap in goal like Maxi hes good at running to empty spaces.. sad hes benched all the time
again.. i can only imagine Aqualani, Meireles, Gerrard, Maxi, Lucas, Cole... on our midfield.. looks solid definitely top 4 team
This post has been edited by kevafk: Apr 10 2012, 08:37 PM
1) We were on the down trend since Lucas was KO from the rest of season 2) Maxis should have played more 3) Kuyt must not be sold as we have sold Miereless which was a mistake, a big mistake. 4) We should promote more NEW blood into the first team, like Sterling, Suso and Morgan. 5) Carra should be in the pecking order at the back of Coates 6) Skrtel cannot play when Agger is not playing.
IN KING KENNY WE TRUST John Henry bring Billy Beane to boston..
The guy in money ball converted small money into big results (we need such kind of justification!). The one we have now spent huge money but deliver poor results (results for now?).
Nothing in common. The pretty face & the fat guy with special formula don't spend big bucks.
P/S The ones in money ball delivered results in SINGLE season.
P/S Billy Beane in modern football in England - I could only think of David Moyes. In real life, Henry didn't get Billy Bean to Boston (he decided to stick with Oakland Athletics). Perhaps he will consider David Moyes "The Billy Bean" (if he loves "no budget big results")
Added on April 10, 2012, 9:32 pm
QUOTE(sifekangel @ Apr 10 2012, 03:34 PM)
Moyes turn ash into gold.. example, Rooney, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Lescott, Baines, Howard, Gibson, Rodwell, Heitinga... while, Liverpool turn gold into ash.. example, Caroll, Henderson, Maxi, El hadji diouf, Babel, Dossena, Voronin, Aquilani, Josemi, Morientes, KEANE!! with tat bunch of money, i think Moyes can build 2 teams tat can compete in top 10...
but of course, Liverpool do make good signing, Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... any1 else? or maybe "The Actor" - Suarez??
Speaking of Moyes, I do not think he is good. For some reason, we made him look good.
Anyway, why I said he is not really good. Look at past managers in ManC/Chelsea. They need a manager (with pedigree) who can manage & control players like Robinho or Balotelli or Tevez (quality players with some "attitude" problem). Get what I meant? Mark Hughes just could not manage it. I think David Moyes and Mark Hughes are in the same league. Modern managers like the "crazy man" in Real Madrid can do the job well.
This post has been edited by ALeUNe: Apr 10 2012, 09:39 PM
Here is an interesting article, written mid 2011, on Soccernomics & Moneyball:
The Scouser Report: Soccernomics, Moneyball and Liverpool’s Transfer Policy
QUOTE
What do a British author, an economics professor and the Oakland Athletics baseball team have in common? All three of them are having a serious impact on Liverpool’s transfer policy under the current regime.
Michael Lewis’ book “Moneyball” blew open the transfer traditions of baseball, revealing how the Oakland Athletics managed to compete at the top of Major League Baseball despite a far smaller revenue stream than its rivals. By paying more attention to unconventional players, non-traditional statistics and older draft picks, Oakland stayed close to the top of MLB with a miniscule wage budget.
British author Simon Kuper and economics professor Stefan Szymanski teamed up to bring us “Soccernomics” or, as it’s better known as, “Why England Lose…”. Inspired by “Moneyball” this book attempts to put a football feel on the Oakland way of doing things. So here are the 10 simple rules of Soccernomics:
New managers waste money, ergo, limit their say in transfers. Draw opinion from several people from different backgrounds. Avoid stars of recent international tournaments. Avoid certain nationalities (e.g. Brazilian, Dutch) as they are overpriced. Buy players in their early twenties; older players are overvalued and youngsters aren’t fully developed. Sell a player either before buyers see deterioration in his game or when a club offers more than he’s worth. Replace your best players before selling. Never buy strikers because they are overpriced; develop them instead. Buy players with personal problems , then help them deal with their issues. Help new players relocate. Couple these ten with one key Moneyball rule: Overspend to fill gaps in the squad, as, the quicker they are filled, the quicker a team can start turning a profit. Now you can see some of the reasoning behind the club’s decisions.
Joined: Jun 2008
From: The Far Away Venus Status: Being Insua-fied
QUOTE(sifekangel @ Apr 10 2012, 03:34 PM)
Moyes turn ash into gold.. example, Rooney, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Jagielka, Lescott, Baines, Howard, Gibson, Rodwell, Heitinga... while, Liverpool turn gold into ash.. example, Caroll, Henderson, Maxi, El hadji diouf, Babel, Dossena, Voronin, Aquilani, Josemi, Morientes, KEANE!! with tat bunch of money, i think Moyes can build 2 teams tat can compete in top 10...
but of course, Liverpool do make good signing, Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... Enrique, Skrtel... any1 else? or maybe "The Actor" - Suarez??
Wit that kind of f$nds, Moyes really can build 2 great teams.
With the 80m Ferguson get from Ronaldo sale, Rafa can get a CL winning team lor.... Talk is easy...I can even say I am capable to making 2 teams competing in top 2 with a sum of money....
But not many team can do that, including Barcelona. Barcelona has world class youth academy. But they still spend big bucks on players. (Of course Barcelona develops many youth players over the years. But that's Barcelona)
As I pointed, Liverpool did not have the transfer budget issue like you see in Moneyball. If the pretty face had 100 millions to spend, I bet the fat-formula guy would not be recruited (he would not come into picture at all)
This post has been edited by ALeUNe: Apr 10 2012, 10:02 PM
Apr 10 2012, 05:36 PM
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