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 water heater, price and quality

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weikee
post Oct 4 2014, 07:55 PM

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QUOTE(Alan Chia @ Oct 4 2014, 06:17 PM)
Then how can they misleading users in such a marketing way?? Even they have a Return of investment chart!! I thought all of it models can save energy in such, if not perhaps 30%!! And I think energy saving is only the hybrid systems not even the double tank one. If this is the fact, we must spread out this news to avoid them to mislead other people!!! Pls correct me if I am wrong.
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Use this with their claim on the DC storage specification

http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html

Even at 100%,efficiency the number are are so much different , they can boil so fast with so less energy can apply for Guinness world record already. Using joven spec and calculate different is about 7mins. Seers different is like 40mins. Call me skeptic.

If price different at not much co.pare to joven you can try and update us the result. My joven 30L if switch off for few days, I only need to wait 10 mins and I have enough hot water for a bath.
Alan Chia
post Oct 4 2014, 10:40 PM

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I found another thing. Seers DC heater claimed that all their products is 100% safe due to without heating element, but in the brochure of single tank and double tank series, it looks like have heating element shown, may be coated by something. But the both 2 salesman of different shop said totally no heating element, and in the main marketing comparison chart also seems like all their products without heating element. From the forum, I think only the hybrid energy saving type is without heating element. And the energy saving type is a bigger vertical unit, not normal storage I think. I am not sure but it seems this brand is trying to use the advantages of a best model, to misleading the users!! OMG...Pls correct me if I am wrong. Hopefully I am wrong. But sorry Weikee I will never try this brand. And the salesman said shouldn't turn off, otherwise need 1 hour to boil(not sure which capacity), but always on will saving energy....due to use low watt to reboil....haha..
weikee
post Oct 4 2014, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE(Alan Chia @ Oct 4 2014, 10:40 PM)
I found another thing. Seers DC heater claimed that all their products is 100% safe due to without heating element, but in the brochure of single tank and double tank series, it looks like have heating element shown, may be coated by something. But the both 2 salesman of different shop said totally no heating element, and in the main marketing comparison chart also seems like all their products without heating element. From the forum, I think only the hybrid energy saving type is without heating element. And the energy saving type is a bigger vertical unit, not normal storage I think. I am not sure but it seems this brand is trying to use the advantages of a best model, to misleading the users!! OMG...Pls correct me if I am wrong. Hopefully I am wrong. But sorry Weikee I will never try this brand. And the salesman said shouldn't turn off, otherwise need 1 hour to boil(not sure which capacity), but always on will saving energy....due to use low watt to reboil....haha..
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What a joke, ask people not to switch off, that because they use low current heating element so it take ages to to heat up.

If not switch off, heat will be wasted, and sure will waste energy to heat it back.
idoblu
post Oct 4 2014, 11:05 PM

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QUOTE(Alan Chia @ Oct 4 2014, 10:40 PM)
I found another thing. Seers DC heater claimed that all their products is 100% safe due to without heating element, but in the brochure of single tank and double tank series, it looks like have heating element shown, may be coated by something. But the both 2 salesman of different shop said totally no heating element, and in the main marketing comparison chart also seems like all their products without heating element. From the forum, I think only the hybrid energy saving type is without heating element. And the energy saving type is a bigger vertical unit, not normal storage I think. I am not sure but it seems this brand is trying to use the advantages of a best model, to misleading the users!! OMG...Pls correct me if I am wrong. Hopefully I am wrong. But sorry Weikee I will never try this brand. And the salesman said shouldn't turn off, otherwise need 1 hour to boil(not sure which capacity), but always on will saving energy....due to use low watt to reboil....haha..
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Which "forum" are you talking about? Link please. TIA

Btw the so-called "hybrid" is suppose to be heat pump technology but it says no heating element and no compressor but if you look at the "working principle" tab, you will see a heating element wrapped around the tank. Maybe they don't consider that a "heating element". And a compressor is definitely needed for heat pump to work

They claimed no risk of electrical shock because it's DC but they don't mention anything about AC to DC conversion circuit. Even faulty USB chargers can give electrical shocks.

This post has been edited by idoblu: Oct 4 2014, 11:51 PM
Alan Chia
post Oct 4 2014, 11:15 PM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 4 2014, 11:05 PM)
Which "forum" are you talking about? Link please. TIA

Btw the so-called "hybrid" is suppose to be heat pump technology but it says no heating element and no compressor but if you look at the "working principle" tab, you will see a heating element wrapped around the tank. Maybe they don't consider that a "heating element"

They claimed no risk of electrical shock because it's DC but they don't mention anything about AC to DC conversion circuit. Even faulty USB chargers can give electrical shocks.
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https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2130889/all
Alan Chia
post Oct 4 2014, 11:23 PM

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Attached Image Means from the brochure attached, most f the point is not right?? And this brochure is refer to the normal single type and also the double tank type!! (I nearly want to buy the single type, RM1000 for 80L!!!)Not the hybrid type!!! I think you guys is well verse in water heater industry, must do something to protect consumer right!!!
idoblu
post Oct 4 2014, 11:39 PM

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wah that brochure says "Energy Saving Proven by TUV Cert"
I thought TUV is about safety? Didnt know they also certify other things

Last time got no single tank. I dont understand what so special about the double tank anyway....
They say no heating element but got heating copper....LOL

In your link, you can see I already asked these questions but the answers....like not really answering smile.gif

This post has been edited by idoblu: Oct 4 2014, 11:40 PM
idoblu
post Oct 4 2014, 11:54 PM

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anyway if you are looking for a centralized multi-point water heating system, get either a solar heater, gas, or a mini heat pump

How it Works — Heat Pump Water Heaters (HPWHs)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by idoblu: Oct 5 2014, 08:49 AM
weikee
post Oct 5 2014, 12:02 AM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 4 2014, 11:54 PM)
anyway if you are looking for a centralized multi-point water heating system, get either a solar heater or a mini heat pump.

How it Works — Heat Pump Water Heaters (HPWHs)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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My guess this is similar to the seers hybrid work. That is why need 1-2 hours, and put @ roof is to exchange the heat during day time.
Alan Chia
post Oct 5 2014, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 4 2014, 11:39 PM)
wah that brochure says "Energy Saving Proven by TUV Cert"
I thought TUV is about safety? Didnt know they also certify other things

Last time got no single tank. I dont understand what so special about the double tank anyway....
They say no heating element but got heating copper....LOL

In your link, you can see I already asked these questions but the answers....like not really answering smile.gif
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It is really pity to those already purchased due to the advantages. And the salesman said the single tank is very fast moving products compare to alpha joven etc due to the selling points. More people getting cheated. .
ozak
post Oct 5 2014, 12:36 AM

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QUOTE(Alan Chia @ Oct 4 2014, 11:23 PM)
Attached Image Means from the brochure attached, most f the point is not right?? And this brochure is refer to the normal single type and also the double tank type!! (I nearly want to buy the single type, RM1000 for 80L!!!)Not the hybrid type!!! I think you guys is well verse in water heater industry, must do something to protect consumer right!!!
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I have ask before this seer heater during exhibition. From what I know base on the site information, it probably use 'peltier' to transfer the heat to the tank.

Peltier is a plate sandwich with transistor. The plate is make of ceramic. It use DC voltage. That's why it have AC/DC converter. When apply voltage, 1 side the plate is hot. And another side is cold. So they use the hot side to heat the tank. And the cold side is vent out by a fan. With a heat sink attach.

This peltier type doesn't efficiency. In order to heat up fast like heating element, it need bigger surface and more current. Running at 12VDC, it need a lot of current. So I suspect it control the current and take longer time to heat up the water. Can claim save energy.

So in order to use at hotel or high hot water consumption, it need several unit to link up like serial. The water is transfer from 1 tank to another unit . Till the last unit, the water is hot enough.
Alan Chia
post Oct 5 2014, 12:03 PM

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From the diagram of the forum, with fan ventilated should be the vertical Hybrid type, see attached photo. With heat transfer and ventilated out. Sounds logic but only applicable to Seers Hybrid Hot water SI series. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, THAT BROCHURE IS REFER TO SINGLE TANK AND DOUBLE TANK MODEL!!!Which I don't see any fan on the sample! And on the wall advertisement also the same!! Even the double tank the principle is the insulation to SAVE ENERGY. (mean no energy saving on the heating systems) Can some one clarify???




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Attached Image
ozak
post Oct 5 2014, 11:09 PM

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QUOTE(Alan Chia @ Oct 5 2014, 12:03 PM)
From the diagram of the forum, with fan ventilated should be the vertical Hybrid type, see attached photo. With heat transfer and ventilated out. Sounds logic but only applicable to Seers Hybrid Hot water SI series. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, THAT BROCHURE IS  REFER TO SINGLE TANK AND DOUBLE TANK MODEL!!!Which I don't see any fan on the sample! And on the wall advertisement also the same!! Even the double tank the principle is the insulation to SAVE ENERGY. (mean no energy saving on the heating systems) Can some one clarify???
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You mean the CH model? We only can suspect and guess what tech is using. Till somebody open up and tell what heating element is using and if it true saving energy.

My best guess is, the peltier for CH model probably doesn't use fan to vent out. Instead use the whole water heater body to vent.

If you check on the specification, maybe you can understand something. The low amp 3.1, the low watt vary 450-850w, long hr water heat up and no switch off.
idoblu
post Oct 25 2014, 04:47 PM

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Alan Chia ozak weikee
Visited Seers today at their Homedec booth.
They demoed how their "no elements" ceramic magic thingy even when cut will not electrocute you.
They claimed using around 300-400 watts only

This post has been edited by idoblu: Oct 25 2014, 04:53 PM
weikee
post Oct 25 2014, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 25 2014, 04:47 PM)
Alan Chia ozak weikee
Visited Seers today at their Homedec booth.
They demoed how their "no elements" ceramic magic thingy even when cut will not electrocute you.
They claimed using around 300-400 watts only
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300-400watt, to heat how many liters water and for how long? When they cut already still can use?
idoblu
post Oct 25 2014, 05:29 PM

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QUOTE(weikee @ Oct 25 2014, 05:22 PM)
300-400watt, to heat how many liters water and for how long? When they cut already still can use?
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I did ask how long it takes, he just simply says "same amount of time"
The demo for the "cut element" - they use test pen to the live terminal to show you it lights up. Then she immersed her hand into the water. She did not use the test pen in the water which I suspect will also light up...
Anyway the guy kinda knew from my skeptical face, so he also don't layan me...LOL

You guys should go take a look laugh.gif
tohtiengchiah
post Oct 25 2014, 05:33 PM

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most efficient is heat reclaim from air cond unit.
weikee
post Oct 25 2014, 05:37 PM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 25 2014, 05:29 PM)
I did ask how long it takes, he just simply says "same amount of time"
The demo for the "cut element" - they use test pen to the live terminal to show you it lights up. Then she immersed her hand into the water. She did not use the test pen in the water which I suspect will also light up...
Anyway the guy kinda knew from my skeptical face, so he also don't layan me...LOL

You guys should go take a look  laugh.gif
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I suspect they using peltier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
ozak
post Oct 25 2014, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE(idoblu @ Oct 25 2014, 04:47 PM)
Alan Chia ozak weikee
Visited Seers today at their Homedec booth.
They demoed how their "no elements" ceramic magic thingy even when cut will not electrocute you.
They claimed using around 300-400 watts only
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I just comeback from homedec also. Saw the booth. Show many instant heater with many color. But never bother to stop and have a look.
idoblu
post Oct 25 2014, 06:02 PM

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QUOTE(weikee @ Oct 25 2014, 05:37 PM)
http://www.dhresource.com/albu_367824222_0...lectric-icy.jpg

I think so too cause the "ceramic" square plate with two wires he was holding looks exactly like those peltier elements
But peltiers are not efficient. Maybe it takes few hours to heat up the tank of water.
Their selling point is safety and supposedly low energy consumption but they don't tell you must turn on this 400w device for how long a time

This post has been edited by idoblu: Oct 25 2014, 06:05 PM

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