Gov said not enough wor. Later want to have nuclear plant.

Go green mean less carbon produce and it is chain effect. You use less, they (TNB) produce less and the power plant burn less. Who pay the bill to independent power plant if you can't collect more money.

Always takecare our wallet first.

as usually, they WILL Use the magic bank la EPF

ha..ha..ha.... I like this....here we are asked to go green and there they are wanting to build nuclear plant...

Of course they want nuclear plant or whatever plant. There is a lot of money involves. Nuclear plant is green too. But dangerous and we have to against it. Why? There are many reasons. First, we cannot trust the company that run the plant. They are interested in profit. Then the ones that supervise them are group of individual with some of them take money and for those who dont take they are stupid. Stupid not because they dont take but because they know little or nut and present with science they say oh yeah. 2nd it take so much money to maintain and the company will try to save money, you cannot trust them.

Look we had Asian rare earth and so many ppl suffer from cancer, birth defect, etc and yet it was run by Mitsubishi, a giant jap company. They coned our government into believing it was safe. Who in our government is so knowledgeble to dispute, they know nothing. Now weap are going to have Lynas and just wonder how knowkegeble is our authority to supervise them.

Lucky for us unlucky for the Jap, the tsunami last year put our nuclear plant a comma, not full stop for the moment.

We supposed to have bakun dam supplier power with submarine cable from sarawak to peninsular. What happened???

Over this part of the world we cannot trust our governments. I am not refer just about our countries but most of the countries where nation come first, not the people. The people have to die for the country, the nation interest come before people interest. Countries like Japan, China, Spore, Indonesia, Russia, etc they said you have to die for the country. The jap can kamikazi and you see they just had nuclear disaster and no one were put in jail or shot. So is our Asean rare earth disaster, no one officer was put in jail and no one from the company was put in jail. Whereas countries mostly western europe their culture are different, the people life and death comes first before the country interest comes first. Like Ozak said, always takecare our wallet first. If you put the people in danger in these countries you are mad, unthinkable.

This debate about solar save $$ or not, after reading n discussing here, seems like there is no clear answer. Here is what i got after doing some research online.

If there is sunlight, solar heater could generate minimum 270litres of hot water, if you use during day time, it could generate more than 270 litres. (eg: You have two kids who got back from school and shower in the afternoon, they both used up 40 litres of hot water, leaving ur tank 230litres, after sometime, the 40litres regenerate and you have 270litres again, total hot water generated by your solar = 270+40 =310 litres)

How much $$ does it cost to heat up 270 litres of water?
Here is the calculation
Pt = (4.2 * L * T ) / 3600
where
Pt is the power used in kWh
L is the number of litres of water heated
T is the Temperature difference between the hot
water ended up with and the cold water started with
in °C

Temperature Difference = 50 (Solar max temperature is 70°C while starting point is 30°C)

Total power used = (4.2*270*40)/3600 = 12.6kWh

Based on TNB rate, i would assume our monthly usage is more than 300kWh, so the rate should b RM 0.40

Cost of heating up 270Litres = 12.6 x 0.40 = RM 5.04

So, this shows that your solar could minimum save u RM 5.04 per day provided that there is sunlight. If based on my example above of 310 litres, per day saving will b RM 5.78

Assuming 1 month has 30 days and there is no sunlight for 5 days in a month (very rare), monthly saving will be RM 126 (RM 5.04 x 25). If based on 310 litres it would b RM 144.50

This calculation is just for sharing, i might b wrong.

Here is how i derive the calculation
Calculation
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/robkemp/Powe...Consumption.htm

Rate
http://www.tnb.com.my/application/uploads/...June%202011.pdf


The reason why some people say need to turn on electricity often because they use more than 270litres of hot water per day. At night when there is no sunlight, you only have max 270litres of hot water, if u used up all the hot water, then in the morning you wont have extra hot water to use. Therefore, you should get a 360 litres capacity solar (80gallon).

This post has been edited by zheilwane: Jun 23 2012, 12:22 AM

You need to calculate what is called net present value for true ROI.

And yes your calculation are assuming using hot water for other purpose and use in the day time. In day time with Malaysia tropical weather many don't use so much hot water, unless you are assuming our temperature are in mid 20s during day time.

So your calculation are bias on solar.

I am calculating hw much it cost to heat up 270 litres of hot water which is the capacity of a 60gal solar heater. Not really calculating number of years to break even, ROI and etc. Like i say, i might b wrong, just sharing the info i got after many days n hours of reading & research. I got all these from doing research online and not simply write to promote solar, the calculation and etc are backed with website links. This could save forumers time to do research on their own and also better help them in deciding what to use.

I dont mind if u can share how to calculate ROI and etc.

This post has been edited by zheilwane: Jun 22 2012, 11:44 PM

You need to know our water temperate is never 20c, how i wish it go that low. usually is around 25 to 28c.

With the current hot weather it can even reach up to 30c or maybe higher.

To calculate ROI, we need to know the actual volume the home owner user. Like for my case, if i were to use solar, and cost difference between solar and 2 storage water heater is RM 2000.00 (maybe higher). That mean I need to pay extra RM 2k for solar. If with Storage, i need to use 3Kw per day for heating up the water, that work out to be RM 438 per year (using rm0.4 / kw) just for heating up.

Let assume our inflation is 7%, we know is about there what gov publish is bullshit. we need to calculate the net present value. In layman term, it mean how much your money worth now if you made the same amount in future. Aka meaning If you have RM 100 in 2013, the value is actually RM 93.xxx now in year 2012 (using 7% inflation).

Year 1 Saving: 407.34
Year 2 Saving: 374.5338
Year 3 Saving: 339.431166
Year 4 Saving: 301.8713476
Year 5 Saving: 261.682342
Year 6 Saving: 218.6801059
Year 7 Saving: 172.6677133
Total: 2076.206475

So minimal ROI for my assumption above will be at 7 years for my case. This I assume other things are constant, e.g. using hot water everyday, and electric bill at RM 0.4 / unit, if use solar I will not switch on the backup power.

We all know hot weather like now, seldom we seldom use hot water. And price difference between Solar and a storage water heater than is usually > 2k

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 23 2012, 12:09 AM

Agree, with the initial temperature and updated it to 30 in my calculation (max value as per ur advise)

For your case, yes, getting a storage would b cheaper as you only use may b 70 litres of hot water per day. For those who are planning to have one bathroom or two with rain showers and only 2-3 persons using it, then yes storage is a cheaper option. If you have a bigger family like 5 persons and you need 4-5 storage heaters than SOLAR would be better and the ROI will b lesser than 7 years.

However, if u include 7% inflation then u should also include inflation for ELECTRICITY COST as well. Therefore, the yearly saving will b back to RM 438 per year, am i right to say so? (7% inflation = decrease in money value of 7% but also 7% increase in electricity cost)

Break even = 5 years only (RM438 x 5 = RM 2190)

This post has been edited by zheilwane: Jun 23 2012, 12:38 AM

No you cannot calculate like this,, because the money you going to use now not the next 5 or 7 years. What if I save the 2; now use the same money but share and my return is more than 7% per year. And do you think if electricity go up inflation still at 7%, it will even go higher.

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Added on June 23, 2012, 7:04 amAlso storage heater don't need 4or5 you just need bigger for more people.

What is the efficiency of solar? We don't get everyday hot sun, Malaysia is cloudy some time and rainy some months all this have to factor in. If really need a high efficient solar is better to get micro solar which is also slightly more expensive. And that make return longer.

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Added on June 23, 2012, 7:13 amI don't want to sound bias, solar water heater is similar to solar electric without subsidy or any form, it take longer roi

5 Years is really just can't do it.

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 23 2012, 07:13 AM

U mention that, assume inflation is 7%, inflation = general prices go up (sugar, rice and etc averagely increase 7%). Therefore, if u say our money value will decrease by 7% due to inflation, ELECTRICITY Cost will also increase by 7% due to inflation based on your assumption. YOu cannot say u save the money now and buy share and return more than 7%, what if your share RUGI? what u can compare is putting the amount saved now (RM2k) in Fixed Depost which is only 3%+ per year. SO, you put your money in bank, u get 3%+ interest but due to inflation, electricity cost goes up by 7%.

If you have 4-5 bathrooms, u get 2 big heaters like 50 litres each, if 1 person shower, u need to wait ard 25-30 minutes to boil the water before u can shower.
1) Nd to wait a long time to shower (a 25 Litres tank will take ard 10-15 minutes)
2) Wasting electricity compared to heating just 25 litres.

In my calculation, i did factor in per month there is no sun light of 5 days. So, for those who wanna decide whether how much $$ can a solar heater save per month, just play around with my calculation, if u think 1 month 10 days no sunlight (which is impossible) den change it to 10.

It is true TUBE type solar like Micro Solar have higher efficiency and saving, SOLAR POWER also got TUBE type.
Why more saving? Tube type solars can heat up til 90°C

Total power used = (4.2*270*60)/3600 = 18.9kWh
Total Saving per day = 18.9kWh x RM 0.4 = RM 7.56

However, if your house only has 4-5 persons, it is not worth getting a tube type solar (you wont be needing so much hot water) as they are basically more exp, you wont be needing the extra efficiency. Similarly, if u have only 2 persons using hot water, it is not worth getting a solar heater.

This post has been edited by zheilwane: Jun 23 2012, 08:40 AM

Some years the electric charges have not been increase think until mid last year it only increase. So for the last few years that the traffic not increase, do you think we have less inflation or 3% as per government announce? 2009 and 2010, how much was it to hire a driver in 2008 compare to last year and now? last time RM 700 can get, now it even go up to RM 1.5k but yet is hard to find people and work. Also for investment, maybe don't talk about investment, but let say the extra 2k now I buy security doors, and 5 years later do you think I can buy the same spec of security doors at 2K?

You and I know, the storage heater store hot water, is not going to have to wait. I brought two from you too if you remember. Every morning i just take bath and water still hot. Sometime I even forgot to switch it on and only notice when I come out. My wife (well many lady too) take longer bath, and she don't have to wait.

Anyway, i am not here to debate Storage is better, but just to point out your 5 years of ROI is not going to be accurate. I have a friend with 6 family members convert from Storage to Micro Solar early this year, and from his feedback there are saving but not substantial, about 30+- per month,, which was not far off from my estimate when he ask me for advice.

And most bath happen during dust, or evening which sun are at its lowest point. Well, unless we have many non working or study family members. And weather like this taking hot bath in the afternoon, hmm which I think not many people will do.

What I can say, Solar have saving, but the return is just not 5 years. 7 to 10 years more like it.

You definitely need to wait for the storage water heater to boil. For example, a kettle with 4 liters capacity will take 5 minutes to boil. What say a 25 liters storage tank?. The only time where you do not have to wait is when someone ( eg your wife ) has turned it on already. She too, has to wait 10 to 15 minutes for it to boil, then shower. Bear in mind, as she showers, the hot water diminishes and the storage heater will continue to boil fresh new hot water for you without you realizing and hence incurring more electricity cost. There is no such thing as no need to wait, if you do not need to wait, then it is not called a storage heater, it is called INSTANT HEATER.

No offence weikee, if ive not mistaken you mentioned that u use 3 kw for heating water per day. Here is my calculation :

3 kw x RM 0.40 X 30 days = RM 36 a month for boiling water.

So your family, i believe a family of not more than 3 person incur electricity cost of RM 36 a month for just boiling the water. It doesnt make sense for a family of 6 ( your friend who converted to micro solar ) to save RM 30 per month for not using storage heater.

You have to take onto account every bath don't take all the hot water out from the storage, days like this season maybe only 10 to 15% of hot waste mix with warm water tank will give enough hot water for a 10 mins bath. For solar maybe yes in the morning the tank maybe not to hot.

And furthermore to heat the water rank size I got is only 30 mins not 60mins, and not everyone well maybe no one can take bath at 70c water temperature. You need to know what the temperature of incoming water and how much hot water need to mix for a bath. Usually 40c is consider warm bath, anything higher can't take to long bath like hot spring.

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Added on June 23, 2012, 12:08 pmThe 3kw I mention here is for calculation sake not what I use.

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 23 2012, 12:08 PM

My friend highlighted to me that when solar or storage breakdown. No hot water to use. If instant broke down one can go to the other toilet to shower

Maybe that's why I see some Hse have 2 solar.

How often will that happen, we are not in country without hot water can't take bath.

I think you see two solar because they need bigger tank, hence need two panel.

Ya true also. Sud not breakdown often.

Some ppl need 2 solar because they need more hot water. Eg: you have 9-10 persons and your house is equipped with big rain showers and may b 1 jacuzzi.

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Added on June 23, 2012, 10:41 pmTested with my Shop's Grundfos Demo pump with 8" Rain shower, we can get 11 Litres of water per minute. Therefore, if you shower 10 minutes, total water used will b 110 Litres. Usually we mix 20-25% of hot water with 75-80% of cold water, 10-15% is very little.. Therefore, total hot water used = 110 Litres x 25% = 27.5Litres = the size of your storage tank. If i were to use a 10" rain shower with Grundfos CM3-5PC, we will get more than 11 litres per minute.

Lets, calculate total electricity consumed for the 10 minutes shower per person.
4.2 x 27.5 x 40/3600 = 1.2kW.

Another method of calculation,
Total time used to boil the storage tank (27.5 litres) before showering = 15 minutes
Total showering time = 10 minutes.
Heater Capacity = 3kWh

Total electricity consumed = (25 minutes/60 minutes) x 3kWh
= 1.25kW

Therefore, your previous assumption of u using 3kW per day for hot water is quite correct

This post has been edited by zheilwane: Jun 23 2012, 10:44 PM

Mixing depend of how cold the incoming water, hot weather like this the water is already 30c +-, especially the water in the "tanki"

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Added on June 23, 2012, 11:21 pmAnd I believe not all use rain shower, i don't usually use. mostly just the normal shower head without using Max output.

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Added on June 23, 2012, 11:34 pmis been many days I have not taken any hot bath. Weather like this even in the morning water in the "Tanki" is still not too cold. Crazy

This post has been edited by weikee: Jun 23 2012, 11:34 PM

Micro Solar having promotion end this month. I am making my booking next week.