Ai yo, when you think solar water heater cost is high and yet you want microsolar the vacuum type!

12yrs ago I go round shopping for solar water heaters. Before that I once sell instant water heater for a company. That time it was hard sell most houses dont have water heater and they boil water or have cold bath still the sale was tough. Along selling the water heater as a young boy I envy those with solar heater only big houses had. I told myself one day I want to own one.

12yrs ago I came across microsolar. Due to high cost I opt for the conventional solar. My reno cost me lot of money. Telling myself if this conventional is not good after 10yrs I would go for microsolar. Now, 10yrs had came and gone but my solar is still working and am enjoying it. If my solar kong today I will go for microsolar not because the conventional one did not serve me well, infact it serves me very well and the back up heater used not more than 5 times, becasue I can afford and dont mind to pay a few k more.

The moral of the story is everything has a price. If now you have little money to spare go for instant water heater forget about people telling you it kills you. If you have more money go for storage and a pump and enjoy bathing. If you have much more money go for solar turn on to the max and if you want fill the tub, connect it to your washing machine and kitchen making washing easier by removing oil, and throwing frozen meat into the hot water to free them especially prowns before cooking them. But if you have so much money that you dad give you get the best of the best today. What I am saying is do not live beyond your mean, tomorrow you can have a 2nd chance, unlike marriage. Not that you cannot have a 2nd chance, you have a responsibility and you can never find a perfect one, first look at yourself in the mirror and there are so many defects...hahahahahaha...so dont think today you buy microsolar and it is going to last you your life time. but your marriage is till the day you die!!!

Solar Mate.

And for those doing reno and has little or no budget for solar or storage, can only afford instant, my advise is get the hot cold water piping and wiring done first where the hot/cold piping go up to the ceiling/roof or wherever you want your hot tank to be as well as the wire. When you have enough money it is easy just buy and install connecting the pipe and wiring, no hacking. I speak fr my brother experience. He was undicided when reno his new house and due to extra money for the solar he went for instant and did not do the piping. After 3 yrs he wanted it and hacking the new tiles is a no no. Till now continue to use instant. When we reno we got to plan for the future what we want and not what we can afford today, tomorrow is a different story.

Yes, am speaking from real experience. The reason is the whole tank water is max hot from days before. Even if you got no sun the whole day up to 3 consecutive days you need no backup heater. In fact my backup heater was broken after 3 yrs (warranty for 1yr switched on more than one hand fingers, whereas the solar 10 yrs warranty) I did not bother to replace the backup heater that cost RM450. it is a thrill to have a cold bath once every few yrs or the fun of boiling water and the bucket of hot water was so precious. The recent no sun still I did not have cold bath. By the time I turn on hot to the max, the next day just 2 hrs of hot sun or little sun the whole day, the tank is hot again. Mandi with lot of water with rain shower is fun and you like bathing even at night and you just dont feel like coming out of the bathroom with hot water and what's more in Selangor you got free water. Instant water is like pee, solar + pump is like standing in heavy rain except the water is hot and as hot or as cold as you like. When you have or going to have fever take a panadol, or going to have cold, go for a hot bath for half hour and the fever or cold gone. Better than cover yourself in blanket.

The saying when it is hot you got hot water, when it is cold you got no hot water is not true. Unless you have too many ppl in the house and too small tank. It is time to just add the tank and/or panel.

One other thing to consider during installation is to add support to the roof where the tank is to be placed. 2 pieces of 2" x 4" horizontal and 4 pieces 2" x 3" verticle wood suport will do. It is very simple (see pix). Though the installer and my contractor told me it was no a problem to support the 60gallan tank, still i insisted to have the extra support for peace of mind. It cost me RM300 only for the wood + nails + labor.

I have no experience on storage so I cannot comment. If/when I got another new house I will have solar, no regret.

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Added on January 16, 2012, 3:59 pmSome other things about solar water heater

1. little time waiting. Just turn the hot to the max, with the help of the pump in few second turn the mixer to the middle, you can have the hot bath. Just make sure you do not use anthing bigger than half inch pipe for your copper pipe. With the pump you will need not worry slow in hot water supply. The pump with high water pressure deliver hot water as you need even when you have 2 or 3 peple using at the same time branching off from the main hot water supply.

2. Get burn? More likely with instant water heater. Half way your bath and you off the water, though power is cut off the heating element is still hotter than the water in the small heating tank. And the hot heating element continues to heat the still small volume of the water in the small tank easily by few degress that hurt. When you turn the water on back, you can get burn.

3. When you are runing out of time or trying to catch you tv series want to have quck bath instant water heater trickle. It takes time to wet you and take longer time to wash the soap/sampoo down fr your body. You got to shower your head/hair then your front, turn around to your back, under and legs and arms one at a time. Solar, you get wet in 1 minute and clean you off all the soap and sampoo in no time with huge volume of water. You can get in the bathroom and get out fast. Now, you may have some idea what fun is bathing with solar.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Jan 16 2012, 03:59 PM

Agree with you bro!

What I missed out even though I planed for future together with my contractor:

1. Alram/CCTV. Re-hacking wall.
2. Jacuzzi. Giveup.
3. One power point on other side of the wall of the kitchen. When I bought my 2nd fridge I had to drill a hole from the other side of the wall which is a room to tap the power from the room.
4. A power point supply for pond. I drill a hole thru from living room to outside, hacked 3 tiles outside and bought a box of the tiles just for that 3 pieces.
5. One aircond point for third room. Hack the wall up to ceiling and come down on the other side for the switch.

The rest was well planned. I even ran a new water piping thinking that the original GI pipe would burst. When it burst just turn off 3 valves and open the other two. But it didn't burst, still I decided to use the new pipe as the old pipe give out rusty things. And the kitchen GI pipe were replace with Class 7 PVC pipe. That time never heard of ABS pipes. Copper and stainless steel pipe were too expensive.

The saying goes, you plan to fail but failing to plan is suicidal. Meaning when you plan you must change your plan from time to time. Time wait for noone.

Can you elaborate further? How powerful the pressure will be and when hot water is pressurised the cold water is not??? Can you also explain how the water is pressurised. Beside pressurised what is the difference in performance interm of temp and volume.

Unless the coil of the pressurised is at the top where the hotest water is otherwise it is the same. The non pressurised one the inlet cold water replacing the used hot water with its inlet pressure will mix the whole hot tank water temp. But if the coil of the pressurised one is all over the hot tank there is no different. I dont know how the coil is place inside the hot tank.

when the pump is installed at the right place pushing cold/tape/tank water to both heater inlet and cold pipe you need just one pump and the presuure is balance for hot and cold water outlets. If 2 pumps are used there will be difficult and near impossible to maintain constant water temp at the mixer. Tak boleh pakai especially if the pump got the air pressure one where the pressure of the air/water keeps changing, starts and stops.

where to position the solar panel. On the south side or north side of the roof in Malaysia? Those living in the North they face south. In the South they will face North. For us in Malaysia with side is more effective?

This post has been edited by stevie8: Jan 24 2012, 12:36 PM

My solar installer recommend me 2 days ago the Monier flat panel low pressure. According to him the tube type will leak due to its rubber/silicone wearing off and the pressurised one the coil will leak. Panel type will last more than 10 yrs he said. I am confused. I also need pumps. I am looking for 3 units each the heater and the pump.

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Added on January 30, 2012, 3:13 pmZheilwane, Pls pm me your offer a set of solar heater both model and pump plus installation in Teluk Intan.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Jan 30 2012, 03:15 PM

mine Solar Mate also. on the 9th yr the tank leaked. under warranty got the tank repaired but according to the technician it was replaced instead othewise it could cost me RM1200. Now still ok, the tank shoiuld last me another 10 yrs, i think.

The leak was due to expansion and contraction of the joints between the tank and the inlet/outlet of the stainless steel tank.

Panels need no maintenance.

If it cost you RM2600 might as well get a new unit, new technology and every thing new like what zheilwane recommended. YOu should consider all other model in the market not just going back to SolarMate. RM4k seems cheap if it is 60gallon type.

what is the size of your heater? 30, 60 gallon ? How many ppl in the house use it that evening? Just install on that day, if so need more days to get it really hot that can use 2 to 3 days without sun.

When you pipe hot water to kitchen might as well also pipe it to your washing machine as u;sually the washing machine is near to the kitchen. There are washing machine come with hot and cold inlet. The machine auto select the water for best washing.

No need to insulate the hot copper pipe. The waiting time for hot water is shorter than the total volume of the pipe distant. Water travel on the least resistance and shoot like bullet at the center of the pipe where it has least friction. Got it?

When you first open the tap, open the hot to the max and as you are getting hotter and hotter water coming out turn to knob to the cold. Use mixer, never use the troblesome seperate piping/taps.

Always use half inch copper pipe all the way from the solar heater to the bathrooms, kitchen, etc outlets. Never use big size pipe as this take longer waiting time for hot water and to replace all the cold water in the pipe and eventually the hot water in the pipe will be wasted as it cooled before next use.

The shorter the distant between the heater and the outlet the better and faster in delivering hot water.

Let's argue so that you see my reasoning.

Am not saying insulation is same as no insulation but insulation has little effect than you think for hot water pipe and there are other ways than unnecessary insulation.

Part 1.

Insulation of pipe or not got not much to do with the waste of water waiting for hot water due to the length of the pipe. Whether you insulate the pipe or you dont you still need the time taken for the hot water to travel the length of pipe to push out the cold water.

Aircond room gaining heat in a room largely due to airflow where cold air escape via bottom of the door as such sucking hot air at any other opening to replace the lost cold air. Very little is to cold the wall or that particular part of the wall where hot pipe are consealed.

When it is the wall getting hot, the wall itself is heat insulation with or withut the added insulation. Insulation to be effective is on exposed pipe. Why use copper pipe which is one of the best heat conductor. Use stainless steel pipe. Stainless steel is one of the worst metal in conducting heat.

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Added on April 14, 2012, 10:40 pmPart 2.

If insulation is cheap then go ahead. It must be very thick and you got to hack the wall wider and labor cost to conseal the joint and the pipe?

Your calculation is pure math but in practical it is not always the case on the amount of water replaced before gettting hot water. Water(either hot or cold or whatever) travels on the least resistant path. When you turn on the tap fully opened the hot water will rush (due to pressure and added with water pump), the new water is not pushing the whole of the water as in the pipe diameter. The circumference(wall) of the pipe resist the flow of water and so is the water nearer to the wall of the pipe also provide resistance and friction. The new water taking the least resistance that is the center of the pipe shooting like a bullet at the middle and leave the side water stagnant. the higher the water pressure the narrower the area of flow and the faster it reaches the tap. This has been proven with experiment using transparent pipe and coloring water. Surely but slowly the surronding water will be heated up as so is the pipe.

The correct way of getting hot water fast is to turn the hot tap (mixer to the left) to the max and as hot water is coming out turn to the middle for the mix of hot and cold. Once you feel the hot water wait for few second more and then only mix with cold water. So you are not wasting as mcuh water as you thought or would be if you leave it for the mixer to work itself.

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Added on April 14, 2012, 10:48 pmPart 3

Hot tanks are insulated but water from hot tank will lose some heat via the pipe body by conduction not only at night but all the time. It is advable to use stainless steel pipe than copper pipe if not for the full length of the pipe, at least 2 feet should suffice. This is better than insulating copper pipe. Insulating copper pipe will not help at all in lost of heat via (copper pipe) heat conduction.

This post has been edited by stevie8: Apr 14 2012, 10:52 PM

Agreed but not the last para regarding stainless steel heat conductor.

Common metal thermal conductivity at 68 degree F measure in K, (Btu/hr degree F ft):

Rank 1: Silver : 235
Rank 2: Copper : 223
Rank 3 : Gold : 182
Aluminium : 118
Stainless steel : 7 -26

That is why stainless steel pots get spot food burned and turn black but the metal is not burned, it is the food burned and stained on it. Since ss is clean and does not contaiminate or corrode unlike copper and alu it is best for making cookware pot and layered with aluminum and copper in between for better heat conduction. You cant layered it inside with gold and silver, they are too expensive.

let me explain a little more why ss pot get spot burnt. The area directly under fire is super hot as the heat is not quickly spread and the food at these spots get burnt. Wherea alu pot the spot directly under fire is not as hot as because the heat is quickly spread evenly and no food get burned. That is why when you buy ss pot make sure it has multy layers where some good heat conductor like copper is sandwich in between the stainless steel. There are ss pot sandwich with a kind of oil that has high evaporation point. The oil spread the heat more evenly better than copper since it is liquid. Liquid oil is not as good as heat conductor of copper but it spread evenly faster. The key is to spread evenly fast.

Anyone who use storage or solar heater will learn to turn on the hot side full first then move to the mix. I need to wait just 5 seconds just before the water get hot in my bathroom upstair. To me there is no much waste of cold water. Down stair the waiting time is 10 to 15 sec.

The first thing to do is try to lay the pipe as straight as possible and less bend. the more bend you have the longer is the wait though the volume is the same but you get the hot water mix with the cold inside the pipe and more volume of water has to come out before you get a good mix.

2nd is use half in pipe all the way, never use 3/4 inch pipe for your hot water piping.

So, you see here we are talking about Solar water heater. With solar water heater we dont bother about heat lost as the sun continues unjealously doing the work as we wake up to before the day turn dark. Our only concern is waste of water when waiting for the hot water to come out of the taps.

With storage tank, any lost of heat is $$$$. Too small a tank you got to wait for the water to heat up. Too big a tank you waste $$$$ if you dont use it to its optimum and heat will be lost all the time even with good insulation of the tank. The hotter the tank water the more heat lost.

So I will say, with solar heater dont bother to insulate the pipe. With storge tank yes you better as every drop of temp is $$$.

Why? because during the day where you often on off the tap the lost heat in the pipe is of no concern becasue the sun keep heating the water tank up and up until the pressure valve has to release the pressure built in the tank due to being too hot. And during the night whten the sun take a rest we also take our rest and there is little or no on and off of the tap and less hot water in the pipe to be cooled and wasted.

With solar we dont mind even to pipe it to kitchen and washing machine but if you use storage tank noone will advise you to do that, you waste $$$.

If you want cheap one call OE marketing. If can last you 5 yrs, celebrate!

From the mixer tab is final my fren but if you still want to connect it further it has to be hot water pipe because it is hot at times. You can still use cold water pipe but it will not last due to expansion and if the connection has an end like a tap it will brust under water pressure when it is closed at the end pipe after the mixer.

This post has been edited by stevie8: May 18 2012, 04:14 PM