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 Terran V Z/P, is terran dat imba??

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TSgnomemaster
post Oct 12 2010, 11:52 PM, updated 16y ago

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smtg dat crossed my mind when watching commentary on youtube...
i am a fan of HDStarcraft and HuskyStarcraft's commentary on youtube..everytime i see them cast, whenever there is a game involving terran, i sure see ppl comment say terran very imba and OP ( is it OverPowered?). of course these happens when the T wins, if T lost they will say the Z/P player very geng can win T players...

juz wanna noe, is terran dat OP??? wanna noe bout u guys' opinion..coz thru out the patches since Beta, terran only experience nerfs and hardly any buffs...IYO, wat u think is a balanced or nt OP terran??
Sichiri
post Oct 12 2010, 11:54 PM

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Yes, Terran is OP.
Nandeska
post Oct 12 2010, 11:56 PM

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Zerg player will say Terran is sooo OP
Terran Player will say its the person donno how to use zerg well
Protoss player will say its not much OP

FruitSeller << GSL 1 Winner ( Zerg )


westley0214
post Oct 12 2010, 11:56 PM

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Yes, because they are the last mankind left in the universe, and Starcraft 2 is made by man.
Soul-X
post Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM

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terran > protoss > zerg > nothing
nuff' said
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM

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then wat players wan?? 1st tier unit:
P > Zealots -Melee
Z > Zerglings - Melee
T > Marines - Range

so unless marine change to melee then ppl will still say T is OP LOL!
looks like marine will be wearing boing glove soon...

Yeah jz watch Fruitdealer's commentary on Husky, lost to OGSStC 's T though...
hazairi
post Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM

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its not that terran is overpowered..
its becoz not many ppl is using zerg, hence the exploration on the units is low..
and great units such as infestor is under used..


TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:06 AM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM)
its not that terran is overpowered..
its becoz not many ppl is using zerg, hence the exploration on the units is low..
and great units such as infestor is under used..
*
TRUE!! infestor is really under use...even by the diamond league ppl i watched on youtube (sry i still beginner though) and for P, high templar is still nt really most favored unit to be use too...from wat i see
IisTHEmoron
post Oct 13 2010, 12:07 AM

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QUOTE(idra)
I don't play terran because i have self respect


tht biomech ball is uber freakin hard to counter if you're a zerg player. sigh. thors are so hard to kill.

plus the wall-in. with siege tanks and then use banshees to harass.
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(Soul-X @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM)
terran > protoss > zerg > nothing
nuff' said
*
Rofl! Never thought of this before!

QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM)
then wat players wan?? 1st tier unit:
P > Zealots -Melee
Z > Zerglings - Melee
T > Marines - Range

so unless marine change to melee then ppl will still say T is OP LOL!
looks like marine will be wearing boing glove soon...

Yeah jz watch Fruitdealer's commentary on Husky, lost to OGSStC 's T though...
*
Nobody will compare it like that. The game is not only consists of first tier unit. They are not the only unit you can build.

People keep complaining about Stalkers being more expensive than Marauders but couldn't beat Marauders 1v1. But there's no rule saying that you must use Stalker to fight Marauder. Besides, Stalkers can attack both air and ground, yet when people keep losing them to Marauders on ground, they complain.

When a Terran player mass Marauders and then lost to a Void Ray rush, they should complain too: "Why Marauders can't attack air? Wtf? Why Stalkers can attack air?".
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(IisTHEmoron @ Oct 13 2010, 12:07 AM)
QUOTE(idra)
I don't play terran because i have self respect


tht biomech ball is uber freakin hard to counter if you're a zerg player. sigh. thors are so hard to kill.

plus the wall-in. with siege tanks and then use banshees to harass.
*
yea gotta admit MMM build is too strong...but for the thor's case, i don see ppl use infestor burrow move towards thors and pops out to neural parasite them?? is it because dat doesn't work or wat??to me it seem possible since many T player don use raven much...
but kinda pity zerg doesn't have tier 1 ranged units excepts queen....


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:14 am
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:10 AM)
Rofl! Never thought of this before!
Nobody will compare it like that. The game is not only consists of first tier unit. They are not the only unit you can build.

People keep complaining about Stalkers being more expensive than Marauders but couldn't beat Marauders 1v1. But there's no rule saying that you must use Stalker to fight Marauder. Besides, Stalkers can attack both air and ground, yet when people keep losing them to Marauders on ground, they complain.

When a Terran player mass Marauders and then lost to a Void Ray rush, they should complain too: "Why Marauders can't attack air? Wtf? Why Stalkers can attack air?".
*
that's how i feel too! to me everything is quite balanced to me d...even siege tanks' siege atk decreased to a decent amount....and Z players tends to rely on lings and muta more??is dat true??

This post has been edited by gnomemaster: Oct 13 2010, 12:14 AM
Grif
post Oct 13 2010, 12:18 AM

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-edited messy fail quotes- lol

For you to reach the Thor in order to use NP, half of your infestors will be dead. whistling.gif

This post has been edited by Grif: Oct 13 2010, 12:23 AM
Nandeska
post Oct 13 2010, 12:18 AM

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infestor is OP LOLOLOL... can i say that? btw , fruitseller is a good example to all whining zerg out there
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:21 AM

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[quote=Grif,Oct 13 2010, 12:18 AM]
yea gotta admit MMM build is too strong...but for the thor's case, i don see ppl use infestor burrow move towards thors and pops out to neural parasite them?? is it because dat doesn't work or wat??to me it seem possible since many T player don use raven much...
but kinda pity zerg doesn't have tier 1 ranged units excepts queen....


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:14 am

that's how i feel too! to me everything is quite balanced to me d...even siege tanks' siege atk decreased to a decent amount....and Z players tends to rely on lings and muta more??is dat true??
*

[/quote]

For you to reach the Thor in order to use NP, half of your infestors will be dead. whistling.gif
*

[/quote]


i mean as in infestor travel when burrowed and comes out behind the battle lines, coz i see they usually station thor behind in stead as tanker....does thor's hammer blast affect burrowed unit??
xShinji
post Oct 13 2010, 12:27 AM

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Marauder as tier 1 unit ....+STIM + Concussive shell
Owns other tier tier 1 unit ...nuff said....
blink stalker?Chargelot? ....hardly win
Speedling? ....i can say gg ....Roach? ..cant even touch mara

Marauder just require a simple micro to own....

Protoss receive more nerf then Terran btw...

Stalker more expensive due to -> able atk air unit, + the shield....
anyway.....Terran has big variation of core units ...while others dun have...so P/Z when agaisnt zerg need to undergo more exposure of different way of Terran play.... MMM come handy to me to counter for now....but not others : (

the best way to win ....to show most unique play style : )

This post has been edited by xShinji: Oct 13 2010, 12:28 AM
AndyNoobie
post Oct 13 2010, 12:28 AM

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Zerg Players Rarely Win the CraftCup

None of the final eight players at CraftCup used Zerg. In the IEM Americas Final as well, none of the final eight players are Zerg. After 14 CraftCup events, only Moman won an event as Zerg. More disturbing is a trend that involves larger numbers. Only 2 of the 28 CraftCup finalists were Zerg. What can we do to get FruitDealer in on some non-Korean cash tournaments? Maybe the best Zerg players can start charging appearance fees? I wonder if the removal of Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine will help the plight of the endangered Zerg. Blizzard recently announced several buffs for the swarm upcoming in balance patch 1.1.2. The most radical of the proposed changes is a range increase for Roaches. I must borrow a Blizzard marketing phrase regarding their proposed changes for patch 1.1.2. I can only say, "Hell, its about time."


Top Zerg Ladder Players Exit Early

Out of the top sixteen EU ladder players, four attended, including mouzMaNa, Kuba, DIMAGA, and tarson. DIMAGA and Kuba, the only Zergs, were out before round four. An unknown player winning a bunch of CraftCup games recently, Doberman.340, eliminated the 12th ranked DIMAGA. The unknown and unranked Krolu eliminated Kuba in round two. The 121th ranked Fabgotho defeated the 12th ranked tarson in the 4th round. Oddly, out of all these top players only one, tarson, progressed beyond round three.

SOURCE

sweat.gif cry.gif
xShinji
post Oct 13 2010, 12:29 AM

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1 of the new map ....with 2 ramp .....is sux for zerg.....P/T can wall on 2nd base ramp .....and easily expo while zerg cant do much.....so it will be the same for zerg : )
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:36 AM

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do you think its fair to reduce marauder's range to like 5 or 4?? 6 seems a bit too much for a tier 1 unit moreover doing extra dmg to armored like stalkers....the movement speed is quite fast same as marine correct?? somehow i feel dat marau's stim + micro is very very hard to counter...
IisTHEmoron
post Oct 13 2010, 12:39 AM

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so f-in agree with the post above.
Grif
post Oct 13 2010, 12:45 AM

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Melting a Terran bioball always has been a thrill for me. biggrin.gif
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:46 AM

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QUOTE(Grif @ Oct 13 2010, 12:45 AM)
Melting a Terran bioball always has been a thrill for me. biggrin.gif
*
also a thrill to see them die too tongue.gif
IisTHEmoron
post Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 12:46 AM)
also a thrill to see them die too tongue.gif
*
yes it is!!! omg..

but if it fails. GG.
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 01:01 AM

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QUOTE(IisTHEmoron @ Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM)
yes it is!!! omg.. 

but if it fails. GG.
*
if failed

A : GG
GG has left the game.

Moonflown
post Oct 13 2010, 01:29 AM

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The satisfaction of detonating burrowed banelings in the middle of terran ball is unbearable!
Soul-X
post Oct 13 2010, 03:56 AM

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Terran needs 30 APM

Protoss needs 150 APM

Zerg needs 300 APM


This post has been edited by Soul-X: Oct 13 2010, 03:57 AM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:17 AM

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QUOTE(Soul-X @ Oct 13 2010, 03:56 AM)
Terran needs 30 APM

Protoss needs 150 APM

Zerg needs 300 APM
*
myth...
tester have 400apm and still lost...
the only guy to defend a 2gate with 1gate and a marine scv all in cant even break top4...

and cool aka fruity winner of GSL said terran > toss for TvP...
he said ZvT is fine with the tank nerfs lol...
chikhan
post Oct 13 2010, 06:06 AM

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I'm no professional SC2 or SC analyzer, since I just play whenever I have time anyways and is never prepared for the 20-40 mins of stress in game. But I watch a ton of replays, and cast's by professional caster's and analyzers like HD, Husky, Day9, Artosis and etc.

I've followed SC2 ever since the begining, in Beta, didn't play it, because I was too lazy to go through the long arse procedure of downloading and blablabla, even though I had the ori CD key, and also my laptop at that time just sucked for SC2 Beta.

I got SC2 like almost a month after it came out because I was short on cash, and played only about 60-80 league games (forgot sorry).

So here's my thought:

Terren is often regarded as over powered because they're builds are easy, relatively cheaper, high mobility, easy combo's and ton's of tech to use. Their base unit's, the Marine can tech up twice with shields and stim pack and whatever it is I missed out upon. The Marauder, another relatively base unit is BUFF AS SHIT! and can tech up to slow down opponents and also stim pack up. Terren's also have a ton of creative units to use for harrassment like the Banshee's cloacked up, or Hellions, Reapers, bla bla bla.
There's tons of easy opening strategies to cheese with like Reaper harassment, early rush cloaked Banshee harassment, a rushed Hellion harassment, so on and so forth; and not forgetting the ease in mass producing drop ships with Reactor tech and mass marines.
The wide variety of tech and simplicity is one factor, another factor maybe the health of the units and high DPS (Damage Per Second). A 3M or MMM (Marine, Marauder n Medivac) ball is almost impossible to counter when they're rushed out, and you as a player hasn't teched up enough yet.
Terren's area able to drop scans, MULE's to harvest faster and more efficiently, repair injured machines, heal injured units and a whole F*@(#!G ton of other S*#T jsut because the can.

This doesn't mean Terren's aren't subjected to being un-cheesable or unbeatable though.
Terren Pros: Tech, straight forward units & Speed
Cons: Noob Terren, APM thats TOO low.
My recomendation: To be honest, I hate Terrens, just cause =D



Now I'll move on with Zerg, a race I loved and worshiped in SC:BW, when Teren's didn't have THAT MUCH S*@T in their arsenal.
They're highly speedy, easy to build, CHEAP and they really really require a lot less structural income, because all you need are a couple of cheap hatch's and you can create every unit after getting a single unit upgrade structure; eg: one spawning pool can make up to 9999999999999999 Zerglings.
The Overlords however are probably the single most annoying unit to have in my oppinion. They're units of high value because they can be used to scout, drop, and evolve to Overseer's to spot cloaked units, they determine your supply count and can poop creep to block or spawn hidden buildings in some hidden location. BUT THEY'RE SLOW AND WEAK AS HELL! An early marine push can wipe out all the overlords if not placed properly, and supplly block an opponent, and if the opponent hasn't macro-ed up enough yet or is broke, its an auto GG in almost every case I've seen so far. An early Stalker push by Protos can easily supply block a Zerg player as well, or even a Void Ray rush (Yes I'm in bronze, so I've used that kinda cheese before and I know what it does to the enemy =D).
This doens't mean that Zerg's lacking in tech though, this particular race has a counter for almost anything, but it's up to the players creativity. There are a couple of strategies and techniques professional Zerg players have used, even "FRUITDEALER" the current God of all Zerg followers; Baneling busts, burrowed Infestor's that will go all the way to an opponent base and spam out Infested Marines, 6pool (Spawning pool at 6 supply and rush, hurts the economy real bad though), Queen rush and the list can go on forever.
There is absolutely no limit to what a Zerg player can conjour up against any race, the same strategy can work against all, and Zerg macro battles are always awesome to watch just because of their sheer number of Zerglings.

Another thing that's fairly "imba" about the Zerg race is the creep, you're allowed to poop creep throughout the entire map possible, and it can be used sorta like a "map hack" or "auto scout" which is somewhat similair to a Terren's sensor tower. Only thing is, sensor towers are limited to a certain radius, but creep can spread all over as long as its on land! It also helps speed up units which is why smalller maps are often considered "ZERG FAVORED" just because its easier to spread creep and run your units over to the opponents base in an instant.

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.
But just look at how dear God, the Fruitdealer, obliterated all his opponents in the GSL with everything a Zerg has to offer! Apart form the standard expansion and all, he had differnet unit compositions almost every game, and went full on Ultralisk's only when the time calls for it, or just to end the game as quickly as possible. He's won games with purely banelings, like 140 of them (YA I'VE SEEN HIM DO THAT! HE'S INSANE), or purely Infestors, which don't even do any damage upfront at all. If any of you follow Husky Starcraft, you'd probably remember his Zergling and Queen rush supported by SPINE CRAWLERS! and only faltered because the opponent went a couple of air units in the end.
To be a PRO GOSU TOP BESTEST GOODEST Zerg player, you'd probably have to spend alot of time and waste away a ton of hours experimenting on different scenarios.


Pros: Cheap, Fast, Unlimited abliities if played right.
Cons: Lower HP, slow start, need's high APM and constant momentum.
My recomendation: Give it a go, Zerg's awesome, you need real high APM and constant focus on this one though, and tons of creativity. Zerg's a complex race and it ain't for the stupid no brainers to use.
I gave it a go furing my first 5 league games after watching Fruitsellers Zergling n Queen rush way before he won the GSL, but I gave up cause I was too lousy and lazy =D


Now for Protos, the current race I use.
Protos like Terren is RATHER straight forward as well, with buff arse base units, the Zealot, and ton's of tech to pick from, they're a super alien race after all. What made me pick Protos after I tried out Terren and Zerg was the easier builds and doesn't require that high a APM count. Like Zerg, their base unit structure, the Gateway is rather similair to a Hatch, one structure for all the units you really need to play a game. Protoss like the other two races in the game, has a "buff" unit, a air and ground attacking unit, caster's stealth, support and so on. Something I like about Protoss is that I don't have to macro my units as much as Terren or Zerg, because I have less support units in a battle; ie: no Medivac's or Queen''s or whatever. I can easily macro up, and rush a opponent knowing my base units will last longer than any other opponent base unit; it takes about 4 Marines / 4 Zerglings to take down a single Zealot.
Like Terren, Protoss units can tech up pretty high as well, but it's mroe of a no brainer compared to a Terren's because the variety of units in a Protoss army is considerably ALOT less than a Terren's. A "standard" macro push against a non-cheesing bronze league player may consist of just Zealots, Stalkers and maybe a couple of Sentry's, and that's be enough.
Less units mix = less use of brain = less stressful = less APM = more time for porno?????
I dunno, but bottom line is Protos players are much more buffer and they look better too compared to the rest!
High Templars are the best counter to the 3m MMM ball too, with their insane cheap storms, which is also probably another reason why I picked this race.


However, to make up for all the "buffness" Protoss units take up more supply, as opposed to a Terren or Zergs; 1 supply = 1 marine, 1 supply = 2 Zerglings, TWO ZERGLINGS!! HOW CHEAP IS THAT! But 2 supply = 1 Zealot. Speed isn't really a Protoss strongpoint either, btu thats before teching up though. A simple reaper harass can wipe out an entire squardon of Zealots, just cause they move so slowly before charge tech. Collosus are SLOW AS er.. well, SLOW.
But who cares about reaper harass when the void rays come out anyways? =D

Pros: Efficient, high DPU (Damage per Unit), high tech, simplicity, easy micro.
Cons: Mobility, Supply requirements.
My reccomendation: this the easiest race to play if you hate Terren.



CONCLUSION NOTE:

You really cannot blame Terren's for being overpowred however, because Blizzard has spent over 10 years in balancing SC:BW with patches still coming out 10 years later, and is still stuck with the same work ethic and perfectionism with SC2. It's really up to a player's play style and creativity to win a game with any given race, so stop blaming the races!!!
Terren is PROBABLY slightly overpowered because the creators were human, and couldn't come up with enough idea's for units for other races?? =D Or they watched too many re-runs of Starship Troopers and any other movies that involves human's coming up with wacky stuff to kill aliens with.
It takes you a while to find your true calling as to what race you should use, so meddle around with the AI and training buddies more often, try out any scenario, think of counters and use every feature in the game to try and win.
Who knows probably by the next patch or expansion, they'd overpower other races just for fun, so that forumers and gamers like us have other things to whine about? But it's not like I'd ever use Terren though, I have self-respect.


END.
I KNOW I SUCK AT WRITING THIS RIGHT! BUT IT's 6AM! I JSUT FINISHED MY SLIDES FOR MY PRESENTATION THIS THURSDAY! I'M DOING THIS AS FAST AS I CAN!







spursfan
post Oct 13 2010, 07:52 AM

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QUOTE(Nandeska @ Oct 12 2010, 11:56 PM)
Zerg player will say Terran is sooo OP
Terran Player will say its the person donno how to use zerg well
Protoss player will say its not much OP

FruitSeller << GSL 1 Winner ( Zerg )
*

QUOTE(Nandeska @ Oct 13 2010, 12:18 AM)
infestor is OP LOLOLOL... can i say that? btw , fruitseller is a good example to all whining zerg out there
*

and he kinda got rolled



QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:10 AM)
Rofl! Never thought of this before!
Nobody will compare it like that. The game is not only consists of first tier unit. They are not the only unit you can build.

People keep complaining about Stalkers being more expensive than Marauders but couldn't beat Marauders 1v1. But there's no rule saying that you must use Stalker to fight Marauder. Besides, Stalkers can attack both air and ground, yet when people keep losing them to Marauders on ground, they complain.

When a Terran player mass Marauders and then lost to a Void Ray rush, they should complain too: "Why Marauders can't attack air? Wtf? Why Stalkers can attack air?".
*

so ultras should be able to ... idk ... 5-shot a thor? ... ultras are ground only while thor can do ground and air ... in reality, thors beat ultras ...

This post has been edited by spursfan: Oct 13 2010, 09:05 AM
kenixkenix
post Oct 13 2010, 07:55 AM

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a simple analysis.
z units are quite mobile but rather weak, u nid swarm of it to be efficient, n harassing wif the mobile unit while building ur "swarm" cheap good map control

p units are rather immobile but really strong, tats y their all in pushes are deadly, damn 4 gate lols. expensive n lack of map control becuz of limited units

lets look at T. they hv immobile n mobile units coming out from barracks, factory, and starport. wow! awesome! + mules to help eco, lol god damn big radius scan, n PF for expansion. wow!

about fruit winning gsl. lets face it. players were over confident, they would expect more P n T qualifying. therefore, training more vs P n T rather than z. therefore, lacking experience against Z gives fruit the ad to shine. Let us remind ourself that if ogsTop push slight minutes earlier, it would be a TTTT semis.
kthxbai
cloudaeris
post Oct 13 2010, 08:43 AM

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i use protoss as my main, lately been playing terran n i really do find tat i can just pew pew pew my way to victory without having much micros
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 09:10 AM

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People are just overstating how OP Terran is...
Well, actually Terran is not OP by too much. It just that Terran is a more "Standard" RTS play style, which you need worker to build building, but each building can produce it's own unit. So it's easier to pick up.

MMM is not an issue anymore to most player, as it's easy to counter... I played random and I never had problem with MMM.

Counter to MM:
Zerg: I always put about 2~3 Spine crawler, and with zergling and roaches (or baneling), you can deal with them.
Protoss: 2~3 cannon at ramp, the Stalker and zealot.
Terran: Bunker with Marine and SCV repairing.

Counter to MMM:
Zerg:You should have infestor by now, just fungal growth, and use infested terran egg to draw fire, then move your unit in, get a few hydralisk or mutalisk to take out the dropship, no healing MMM = useless.
Protoss: You should have high templar or colussus by now. I would use a few archon if high templar or immortal if colussus.
Terran: Siege tank splash damage can deal with them easily, just have enough number will do.


And sometimes people complaining about Marauder drop. I would say.. you have to always be aware of people would drop in units from the back of your base, regardless of race.

Protoss can drop DT and use the drop ship to warp in more units. (I always do this...)
Zerg can use overlord to drop units in....
Terran can use dropship to drop units in...

Well, just be aware of your surrounding. Use overlord surround your base, or a few observer at key location, or a sensor tower in your base.


Conclusion:
Is terran OP? Yes, maybe, but not by very much
Does terran required lesser APM (Hell, I don't even care about APM)? I don't really care, but to play effectively, all races required more or less certain level of APM.
Am I bias? Well, everyone is bias base on their playing experience, so, who cares...
So what now? Just play the race you enjoy the most, ignore what other people say and have fun.


Added on October 13, 2010, 9:13 am
QUOTE(kenixkenix @ Oct 13 2010, 07:55 AM)

lets look at T. they hv immobile n mobile units coming out from barracks, factory, and starport. wow! awesome! + mules to help eco, lol god damn big radius scan, n PF for expansion. wow!

*
Hm... From most of the others place that I read, Terran is NOT mobile at all.
And Terran without Mule can't catch up with the mineral rate of protoss or zerg early game (mainly due to rate of worker production).
Scan radius is big? Not really.
PF? Get air unit or siege unit = useless PF. And PF can't fly, dont have scan/mule, and is expansive.


This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 09:13 AM
kenixkenix
post Oct 13 2010, 09:58 AM

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are you seriously trolling?
reapers/helion/medivac not mobile?
n people normally get pf when going 3rd expand, 150/150 is nt expensive by den, n ofcoz turrets are ready by den
some T even uses pf in the middle of the map juz to get better contain n map control
srsly i cant help but think tat ur trolling.
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 10:24 AM

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QUOTE(kenixkenix @ Oct 13 2010, 09:58 AM)
are you seriously trolling?
reapers/helion/medivac not mobile?
n people normally get pf when going 3rd expand, 150/150 is nt expensive by den, n ofcoz turrets are ready by den
some T even uses pf in the middle of the map juz to get better contain n map control
srsly i cant help but think tat ur trolling.
*
I guess you need to get your fact right. Or perhaps your idea of mobility right.

Mobility in term of ARMY, not just a freaking small harass forces.
All harass forces move fast, the same goes to phoenix, muta, zergling, stalker and so on. All races got some fast and slow units, but overall major army composition of terran is slower army. Don't compare the fastest unit of a race to the slowest unit of another race. Compare the core army.
And speed of an army is always decided by the SLOWEST unit, not the fastest.

The major composition of Terran army, which has the Thor or Siege tank, is freaking damn slow.

Just tell me, how fast can you get from one end of the map to the other end of the map, with your major army, compare these for all 3 races, then you will get the idea. Don't use the freaking harassment forces as sample, which is pointless when you are talking about the whole freaking race.

I rarely played any game that goes till 3rd expansion, unless it's zerg. PF is fine as it is. If terran already got 3rd expansion, you should have 3rd as well, which you SHOULD HAVE SIEGE UNITS BY THEN. It just good against small forces, but large enough forces, or just a few siege unit can simply destroy it.

I have never seen anyone use PF in the middle of the map. Bunker perhaps, but PF? I guess you are trolling. Siege tank in siege mode with marines do a hell lot better job at that, and is mobile. PF can't move at all.
xShinji
post Oct 13 2010, 10:26 AM

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The reason mara drop is strong -> medivac able to heal after drop ....able to bust an nexus/hatch/CC less den 20 sec with 3 medivac drop
Dont forget early 2helion drop which could devast your mineral line quite fast....thx to 'line AOE' (Anyhow, i no idea how to defends agaisnt this....i normally pull probes away ...........sometime it got clump together --> end up half of the probe dies from line aoe zzzz ...)


others? ....Overlord can be massed easily....so the drop can be massed too ...however, their hp is too low? a simple turret placement is enuf to do the job...1 of the fruit dealer game did shows it ...a mass overlord with drops....but hardly reach the 'tank line'

Warp prism ...look at the cost -> 200 minerals ...slow build time...quite expensive ......for a medium hp units without any dps....Not many would get it ....most prefer immortal....

Terran is OP to me after i played 2 game agaisnt T ....MMM Kited my Stalker/Zealot/Collosus mix unit ......with stim + slow ...and the next is..... MARINE+ medivac finish off immortal/zealot/stalker with about same food count...
hazairi
post Oct 13 2010, 10:30 AM

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QUOTE(chikhan @ Oct 13 2010, 06:06 AM)
I'm no professional SC2 or SC analyzer, since I just play whenever I have time anyways and is never prepared for the 20-40 mins of stress in game. But I watch a ton of replays, and cast's by professional caster's and analyzers like HD, Husky, Day9, Artosis and etc.

I've followed SC2 ever since the begining, in Beta, didn't play it, because I was too lazy to go through the long arse procedure of downloading and blablabla, even though I had the ori CD key, and also my laptop at that time just sucked for SC2 Beta.

I got SC2 like almost a month after it came out because I was short on cash, and played only about 60-80 league games (forgot sorry).

So here's my thought:

Terren is often regarded as over powered because they're builds are easy, relatively cheaper, high mobility, easy combo's and ton's of tech to use. Their base unit's, the Marine can tech up twice with shields and stim pack and whatever it is I missed out upon. The Marauder, another relatively base unit is BUFF AS SHIT! and can tech up to slow down opponents and also stim pack up. Terren's also have a ton of creative units to use for harrassment like the Banshee's cloacked up, or Hellions, Reapers, bla bla bla.
There's tons of easy opening strategies to cheese with like Reaper harassment, early rush cloaked Banshee harassment, a rushed Hellion harassment, so on and so forth; and not forgetting the ease in mass producing drop ships with Reactor tech and mass marines.
The wide variety of tech and simplicity is one factor, another factor maybe the health of the units and high DPS (Damage Per Second). A 3M or MMM (Marine, Marauder n Medivac) ball is almost impossible to counter when they're rushed out, and you as a player hasn't teched up enough yet.
Terren's area able to drop scans, MULE's to harvest faster and more efficiently, repair injured machines, heal injured units and a whole F*@(#!G ton of other S*#T jsut because the can.

This doesn't mean Terren's aren't subjected to being un-cheesable or unbeatable though.
Terren Pros: Tech, straight forward units & Speed
Cons: Noob Terren, APM thats TOO low.
My recomendation: To be honest, I hate Terrens, just cause =D
Now I'll move on with Zerg, a race I loved and worshiped in SC:BW, when Teren's didn't have THAT MUCH S*@T in their arsenal.
They're highly speedy, easy to build, CHEAP and they really really require a lot less structural income, because all you need are a couple of cheap hatch's and you can create every unit after getting a single unit upgrade structure; eg: one spawning pool can make up to 9999999999999999 Zerglings.
The Overlords however are probably the single most annoying unit to have in my oppinion. They're units of high value because they can be used to scout, drop, and evolve to Overseer's to spot cloaked units, they determine your supply count and can poop creep to block or spawn hidden buildings in some hidden location. BUT THEY'RE SLOW AND WEAK AS HELL! An early marine push can wipe out all the overlords if not placed properly, and supplly block an opponent, and if the opponent hasn't macro-ed up enough yet or is broke, its an auto GG in almost every case I've seen so far. An early Stalker push by Protos can easily supply block a Zerg player as well, or even a Void Ray rush (Yes I'm in bronze, so I've used that kinda cheese before and I know what it does to the enemy =D).
This doens't mean that Zerg's lacking in tech though, this particular race has a counter for almost anything, but it's up to the players creativity. There are a couple of strategies and techniques professional Zerg players have used, even "FRUITDEALER" the current God of all Zerg followers; Baneling busts, burrowed Infestor's that will go all the way to an opponent base and spam out Infested Marines, 6pool (Spawning pool at 6 supply and rush, hurts the economy real bad though), Queen rush and the list can go on forever.
There is absolutely no limit to what a Zerg player can conjour up against any race, the same strategy can work against all, and Zerg macro battles are always awesome to watch just because of their sheer number of Zerglings.

Another thing that's fairly "imba" about the Zerg race is the creep, you're allowed to poop creep throughout the entire map possible, and it can be used sorta like a "map hack" or "auto scout" which is somewhat similair to a Terren's sensor tower. Only thing is, sensor towers are limited to a certain radius, but creep can spread all over as long as its on land! It also helps speed up units which is why smalller maps are often considered "ZERG FAVORED" just because its easier to spread creep and run your units over to the opponents base in an instant.

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.
But just look at how dear God, the Fruitdealer, obliterated all his opponents in the GSL with everything a Zerg has to offer! Apart form the standard expansion and all, he had differnet unit compositions almost every game, and went full on Ultralisk's only when the time calls for it, or just to end the game as quickly as possible. He's won games with purely banelings, like 140 of them (YA I'VE SEEN HIM DO THAT! HE'S INSANE), or purely Infestors, which don't even do any damage upfront at all. If any of you follow Husky Starcraft, you'd probably remember his Zergling and Queen rush supported by SPINE CRAWLERS! and only faltered because the opponent went  a couple of air units in the end.
To be a PRO GOSU TOP BESTEST GOODEST Zerg player, you'd probably have to spend alot of time and waste away a ton of hours experimenting on different scenarios. 
Pros: Cheap, Fast, Unlimited abliities if played right.
Cons: Lower HP, slow start, need's high APM and constant momentum.
My recomendation: Give it a go, Zerg's awesome, you need real high APM and constant focus on this one though, and tons of creativity. Zerg's a complex race and it ain't for the stupid no brainers to use.
I gave it a go furing my first 5 league games after watching Fruitsellers Zergling n Queen rush way before he won the GSL, but I gave up cause I was too lousy and lazy =D
Now for Protos, the current race I use.
Protos like Terren is RATHER straight forward as well, with buff arse base units, the Zealot, and ton's of tech to pick from, they're a super alien race after all. What made me pick Protos after I tried out Terren and Zerg was the easier builds and doesn't require that high a APM count. Like Zerg, their base unit structure, the Gateway is rather similair to a Hatch, one structure for all the units you really need to play a game. Protoss like the other two races in the game, has a "buff" unit, a air and ground attacking unit, caster's stealth, support and so on. Something I like about Protoss is that I don't have to macro my units as much as Terren or Zerg, because I have less support units in a battle; ie: no Medivac's or Queen''s or whatever. I can easily macro up, and rush a opponent knowing my base units will last longer than any other opponent base unit; it takes about 4 Marines / 4 Zerglings to take down a single Zealot.
Like Terren, Protoss units can tech up pretty high as well, but it's mroe of a no brainer compared to a Terren's because the variety of units in a Protoss army is considerably ALOT less than a Terren's. A "standard" macro push against a non-cheesing bronze league player may consist of just Zealots, Stalkers and maybe a couple of Sentry's, and that's be enough.
Less units mix = less use of brain = less stressful = less APM = more time for porno????? 
I dunno, but bottom line is Protos players are much more buffer and they look better too compared to the rest!
High Templars are the best counter to the 3m MMM ball too, with their insane cheap storms, which is also probably another reason why I picked this race.
However, to make up for all the "buffness" Protoss units take up more supply, as opposed to a Terren or Zergs; 1 supply = 1 marine, 1 supply = 2 Zerglings, TWO ZERGLINGS!! HOW CHEAP IS THAT! But 2 supply = 1 Zealot. Speed isn't really a Protoss strongpoint either, btu thats before teching up though. A simple reaper harass can wipe out an entire squardon of Zealots, just cause they move so slowly before charge tech. Collosus are SLOW AS er.. well, SLOW.
But who cares about reaper harass when the void rays come out anyways? =D

Pros: Efficient, high DPU (Damage per Unit), high tech, simplicity, easy micro.
Cons: Mobility, Supply requirements.
My reccomendation: this the easiest race to play if you hate Terren.
CONCLUSION NOTE:

You really cannot blame Terren's for being overpowred however, because Blizzard has spent over 10 years in balancing SC:BW with patches still coming out 10 years later, and is still stuck with the same work ethic and perfectionism with SC2. It's really up to a player's play style and creativity to win a game with any given race, so stop blaming the races!!!
Terren is PROBABLY slightly overpowered because the creators were human, and couldn't come up with enough idea's for units for other races?? =D Or they watched too many re-runs of Starship Troopers and any other movies that involves human's coming up with wacky stuff to kill aliens with.
It takes you a while to find your true calling as to what race you should use, so meddle around with the AI and training buddies more often, try out any scenario, think of counters and use every feature in the game to try and win.
Who knows probably by the next patch or expansion, they'd overpower other races just for fun, so that forumers and gamers like us have other things to whine about? But it's not like I'd ever use Terren though, I have self-respect.
END.
I KNOW I SUCK AT WRITING THIS RIGHT! BUT IT's 6AM! I JSUT FINISHED MY SLIDES FOR MY PRESENTATION THIS THURSDAY! I'M DOING THIS AS FAST AS I CAN!
*
I really agree with your statement:

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.

I have the same thoughts on this..
Exploration on Zerg units is low because not many players wanna use Zerg.

When Zerg players been attacked with MMM, they will whine it's OP and it's a cheap tactic, but they didn't realize that using just MutaLings aren't enough to counter them.
Using Banelings however needs alot of resource. The most effective way is using Infestors.
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 10:38 AM

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I am not sure about others, but I like to build warp prism with warp gate to warp into enemy base. Especially for DT and HT warp.

Overlord drop I did a few times, but it's always easier to use mutalisk harassment most of the time. I would use mutalisk harassment, combine with nydus worm into the best, with mutalisk to defend it for a while.

Anyway, all drops/harassment are strong if you are not aware of it. But proper scouting or turret, cannon, overlord placement would help most of the time. I always keep a small forces in my base to defend(infestor, and a few hydralisk for zerg. Cannon and a few stalker for protoss, and some marines for terran).

To deal with MMM, always try to kill the medivac with AA. Without healing, MMM is simply useless.


Added on October 13, 2010, 10:40 am
QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 10:30 AM)
I really agree with your statement:

So why is Zerg less favored? Probably because players haven't invested enough time to explore the capabilities of every unit, and gave up halfway just because it is so vast.

I have the same thoughts on this..
Exploration on Zerg units is low because not many players wanna use Zerg.

When Zerg players been attacked with MMM, they will whine it's OP and it's a cheap tactic, but they didn't realize that using just MutaLings aren't enough to counter them.
Using Banelings however needs alot of resource. The most effective way is using Infestors.
*
Agree, a few infestor can simply finish of a group of MMM. And infested terran egg is very good to draw early fire (for the player that don't micro much), while you run your zergling/baneling in.

This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 10:40 AM
hazairi
post Oct 13 2010, 10:50 AM

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Overlord = cost only 100, needs no supply space, can be used as a transporter and a scout..

In BW, for me Overlord is the most value for money unit as it can also detect cloak units.

Overseer = u can use to spy with channeling and u can use it to halt productions

Infestor = mass infested terrans

nydus worm = u can place it anywhere as long ur unit can see the location

early rush = 6 pool rush, 10 pool rush
pre-midgame rush = baneling bust

Zerg has many harrassment tactics too..
Calvin Seak
post Oct 13 2010, 10:56 AM

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Why don't we all use terran than our problems will be solve..

i think thats why there are more terrans than zergs smile.gif
azmirhere
post Oct 13 2010, 11:04 AM

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healing rate for medivas is too fast.just my 2 cents
LoNeLy-Zhai
post Oct 13 2010, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 10:50 AM)
pre-midgame rush = baneling bust

Zerg has many harrassment tactics too..
*
Baneling bust? Not recommended if you have the same army count with your opponent as it would just weaken your force.
pakabluegun
post Oct 13 2010, 11:10 AM

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For me terran is OP cause the macro is easy. I dont have to constantly spit on my hive or warp warp warp. just memorize some 1S2DDAA3T to constantly churn out scv MMM and tanks. For terran Macro > micro. infestor? meh... i have tons of MMM rolling in for backup. Unless the zerg is good in micro i can win cheap with just simply good macro. yeah it is cheap but it works.
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(pakabluegun @ Oct 13 2010, 11:10 AM)
For me terran is OP cause the macro is easy.  I dont have to constantly spit on my hive or warp warp warp. just memorize some 1S2DDAA3T to constantly churn out scv MMM and tanks. For terran Macro > micro. infestor? meh... i have tons of MMM rolling in for backup.  Unless the zerg is good in micro i can win cheap with just simply good  macro. yeah it is cheap but it works.
*
What makes you think that the zerg doesn't have tons of other units rolling in for backup... And injection is simple... Put all your queen on one hotkey, press hotkey, press injection, press minimap (I never tried it yet, just read it somewhere). Or for myself, i hotkey each hatchery differently, just double press the number, and do injection.. pretty simple..

It just that people can't get used to the play style, doesn't mean it's hard. I always has a larger army count than my opponenet if I play zerg, and I always able to get my army back fast after a battle.
roxxor89
post Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(Soul-X @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 AM)
user posted image

terran > protoss > zerg > nothing
nuff' said
*
LOOOOL!!!!



In anycase, if any of you are actual hardcore fans of the sc2 scene, you will realize that only non-koreans are complaining abt terran being OP. Infact even some top tier global players agree on the fact that its not the Marauders you should be worried about, its the Terran mechplay. The common reactive steps taken by amateur players against MM is to tech up which is in most cases, flawed (taking into account both players have no redundant macro). While it may work to a certain extent depending on numbers vs numbers, at the end of the day an all-out Tier 1 army will win via resource alone.

One commonly accepted fact is that, Terran as well as Protoss are far more beginner friendly to use. Zerg's gameplay and macrostyle is vastly different from the two other races that a competent Zerg player will usually be able to scale his skills across all the races.
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 10:50 AM)
Overlord = cost only 100, needs no supply space, can be used as a transporter and a scout..

In BW, for me Overlord is the most value for money unit as it can also detect cloak units.

Overseer = u can use to spy with channeling and u can use it to halt productions

Infestor = mass infested terrans

nydus worm = u can place it anywhere as long ur unit can see the location
early rush = 6 pool rush, 10 pool rush
pre-midgame rush = baneling bust

Zerg has many harrassment tactics too..
*
many times Z players tend to look at overlord as SUPPLY DEPOT and not transportation or detectors!! if Z noe they are up against T, overseer shud be up already..1 or 2 is good enough, and also speed and trans for overlord is hardly researched..

a lot ppl complain bout MMM micro, wat about infestor that spawn infested terran at the back as blokade like sentry's force field (as far as i noe, IT deal same dmg as marine w/0 stim and i saw dis on HDstarcraft's commentary, freaking useful) hence u will have 2 forces to sandwich the bioball=.= and it oni cost 25 energy perIT means 1 infestor = 8 marine

and juz wanna ask, 4mara + medvac cheaper or 1 warp prism + 1 HT cheaper?? 1 psionic storm at harvester = ???

every races has their pros and cons, depending whether u can find the right abuse and exploits for that race, for T its definitely MMM abuse, Z and P players just need time to find out wat is it that they can do to abuse as well...
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(spursfan @ Oct 13 2010, 07:52 AM)
and he kinda got rolled
so ultras should be able to ... idk ... 5-shot a thor? ... ultras are ground only while thor can do ground and air ... in reality, thors beat ultras ...
*
Which is why, don't compare unit by unit. If you just look at the race balance this way you are going nowhere. Look at the overall gameplay. Might as well have just one race and not three races if all units have the same stat and building cost.

This post has been edited by westley0214: Oct 13 2010, 11:27 AM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 09:10 AM)
People are just overstating how OP Terran is...
Well, actually Terran is not OP by too much. It just that Terran is a more "Standard" RTS play style, which you need worker to build building, but each building can produce it's own unit. So it's easier to pick up.

MMM is not an issue anymore to most player, as it's easy to counter... I played random and I never had problem with MMM.

Counter to MM:
Zerg: I always put about 2~3 Spine crawler, and with zergling and roaches (or baneling), you can deal with them.
Protoss: 2~3 cannon at ramp, the Stalker and zealot.
Terran: Bunker with Marine and SCV repairing.

Counter to MMM:
Zerg:You should have infestor by now, just fungal growth, and use infested terran egg to draw fire, then move your unit in, get a few hydralisk or mutalisk to take out the dropship, no healing MMM = useless.
Protoss: You should have high templar or colussus by now. I would use a few archon if high templar or immortal if colussus.
Terran: Siege tank splash damage can deal with them easily, just have enough number will do.
And sometimes people complaining about Marauder drop. I would say.. you have to always be aware of people would drop in units from the back of your base, regardless of race.

Protoss can drop DT and use the drop ship to warp in more units. (I always do this...)
Zerg can use overlord to drop units in....
Terran can use dropship to drop units in...

Well, just be aware of your surrounding. Use overlord surround your base, or a few observer at key location, or a sensor tower in your base.
Conclusion:
Is terran OP? Yes, maybe, but not by very much
Does terran required lesser APM (Hell, I don't even care about APM)? I don't really care, but to play effectively, all races required more or less certain level of APM.
Am I bias? Well, everyone is bias base on their playing experience, so, who cares...
So what now? Just play the race you enjoy the most, ignore what other people say and have fun.


Added on October 13, 2010, 9:13 am

Hm... From most of the others place that I read, Terran is NOT mobile at all.
And Terran without Mule can't catch up with the mineral rate of protoss or zerg early game (mainly due to rate of worker production).
Scan radius is big? Not really.
PF? Get air unit or siege unit = useless PF. And PF can't fly, dont have scan/mule, and is expansive.
*
LOL please tell me u are not high on drugs or u are at least in plat or diamond?
WHO THE HELL COUNTERS MMM with cannons?
its like telling the terran to take expansions all over the map or freely drop in ur base away from ur ramp...

and mass repair fortress > any unit toss can make...
my 4 charged VR cant take out a PF before his reinforcements arrive and my ground army cant move in...
kiwikaki's 5 colossus with tonnes of stalkers cant break through fenix's PF in xelnaga's gold for 4 attacks in total in last week's IEM NY...
and each time he atk? fenix drops in kiwi's base while mass repair PF hold off...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:42 amfor those saying good things bout templar to counter MMM...
when is the last time u ever see templar being used by high lvl toss to beat MMM in major tournaments?

answer:
NONE...
GSL most of them went for colossus and won while those went for templar died a painful death...
IEM NY all of them went for colossus...
why? templar tech is too slow to get which would kill u b4 u get ur storm research started...
and with the polt timing atk builds or any banshee type play, u need to get observers which slow down templar tech slower...
lastly as huk and every1 pointed out, EMP just destroy templars (tester had superior position over rainbow with his colossus with bigger army and lost to 1 emp)


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:45 am
QUOTE(roxxor89 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM)
LOOOOL!!!!
In anycase, if any of you are actual hardcore fans of the sc2 scene, you will realize that only non-koreans are complaining abt terran being OP. Infact even some top tier global players agree on the fact that its not the Marauders you should be worried about, its the Terran mechplay. The common reactive steps taken by amateur players against MM is to tech up which is in most cases, flawed (taking into account both players have no redundant macro). While it may work to a certain extent depending on numbers vs numbers, at the end of the day an all-out Tier 1 army will win via resource alone.

One commonly accepted fact is that, Terran as well as Protoss are far more beginner friendly to use. Zerg's gameplay and macrostyle is vastly different from the two other races that a competent Zerg player will usually be able to scale his skills across all the races.
*
WHAT?
did u even watch GSL or read interviews?
cool aka fruity said that terran is favored for TvP...
isnt he a korean?
tester lost to some random terran and failed to qualify for GSL2 which is the biggest upset...
top 4 of GSL1 is 3 terran, same as IEM NY...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:47 am
QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 10:38 AM)
I am not sure about others, but I like to build warp prism with warp gate to warp into enemy base. Especially for DT and HT warp.

Overlord drop I did a few times, but it's always easier to use mutalisk harassment most of the time. I would use mutalisk harassment, combine with nydus worm into the best, with mutalisk to defend it for a while.

Anyway, all drops/harassment are strong if you are not aware of it. But proper scouting or turret, cannon, overlord placement would help most of the time. I always keep a small forces in my base to defend(infestor, and a few hydralisk for zerg. Cannon and a few stalker for protoss, and some marines for terran).

To deal with MMM, always try to kill the medivac with AA. Without healing, MMM is simply useless.


Added on October 13, 2010, 10:40 am

Agree, a few infestor can simply finish of a group of MMM. And infested terran egg is very good to draw early fire (for the player that don't micro much), while you run your zergling/baneling in.
*
lol that's the WORST mistake u can make to focus down on the medic when engaging MMM...
when u focus on the medic, his MM ball jz burn through all ur units and u lacking the dps/ burst to kill the MM...
its like giving the MM a full duration of stim dps...
since when do u see pros focusing on the medic during an engagement (not a drop play btw)?


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:49 am
QUOTE(xShinji @ Oct 13 2010, 10:26 AM)
The reason mara drop is strong -> medivac able to heal after drop ....able to bust an nexus/hatch/CC less den 20 sec with 3 medivac drop
Dont forget early 2helion drop which could devast your mineral line quite fast....thx to 'line AOE' (Anyhow, i no idea how to defends agaisnt this....i normally pull probes away ...........sometime it got clump together --> end up half of the probe dies from line aoe zzzz ...)
others? ....Overlord can be massed easily....so the drop can be massed too ...however, their hp is too low? a simple turret placement is enuf to do the job...1 of the fruit dealer game did shows it ...a mass overlord with drops....but hardly reach the 'tank line'

Warp prism ...look at the cost -> 200 minerals ...slow build time...quite expensive ......for a medium hp units without any dps....Not many would get it ....most prefer immortal.... 

Terran is OP to me after i played 2 game agaisnt T ....MMM Kited my Stalker/Zealot/Collosus mix unit ......with stim + slow ...and the next is..... MARINE+ medivac finish off immortal/zealot/stalker with about same food count...
*
GSL1, countless nexus and hatch was dropped by stimmed marauders x1 from a single medicvac...
as tastosis put it: drop, stim and right click on the nexus, u cant click on the nexus anymore again...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 11:49 AM
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 11:38 AM)
WHAT?
did u even watch GSL or read interviews?
cool aka fruity said that terran is favored for TvP...
isnt he a korean?
tester lost to some random terran and failed to qualify for GSL2 which is the biggest upset...
top 4 of GSL1 is 3 terran, same as IEM NY...
Fruity said Terran is favored for TvP. Did he say Terran is OP? Yeah Tester lost to some random Terran which he should not? Because he is such a pro? While random Terran is noob? I don't even know why sometime Lin Dan would lose to some no-name.
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post Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 10:24 AM)
I guess you need to get your fact right. Or perhaps your idea of mobility right.

Mobility in term of ARMY, not just a freaking small harass forces.
All harass forces move fast, the same goes to phoenix, muta, zergling, stalker and so on. All races got some fast and slow units, but overall major army composition of terran is slower army. Don't compare the fastest unit of a race to the slowest unit of another race. Compare the core army.
And speed of an army is always decided by the SLOWEST unit, not the fastest.

The major composition of Terran army, which has the Thor or Siege tank, is freaking damn slow.

Just tell me, how fast can you get from one end of the map to the other end of the map, with your major army, compare these for all 3 races, then you will get the idea. Don't use the freaking harassment forces as sample, which is pointless when you are talking about the whole freaking race.

I rarely played any game that goes till 3rd expansion, unless it's zerg. PF is fine as it is. If terran already got 3rd expansion, you should have 3rd as well, which you SHOULD HAVE SIEGE UNITS BY THEN. It just good against small forces, but large enough forces, or just a few siege unit can simply destroy it.

I have never seen anyone use PF in the middle of the map. Bunker perhaps, but PF? I guess you are trolling. Siege tank in siege mode with marines do a hell lot better job at that, and is mobile. PF can't move at all.
*
terran's mobility is so much higher than it was in SCBW...
medicvac is part of ur core MMM army and u can use them to drop effectively...
again, look at IEM NY where terrans always drop within the toss's base whenever the toss move out and could still defend well with a much smaller army...


Added on October 13, 2010, 11:51 am
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM)
Fruity said Terran is favored for TvP. Did he say Terran is OP? Yeah Tester lost to some random Terran which he should not? Because he is such a pro? While random Terran is noob? I don't even know why sometime Lin Dan would lose to some no-name.
*
u do know that fruity raged on the korean forum b4 his quarters (b4 he meet ogstop) about terran?
he even said he gonna swap to terran if he failed to reach top 4?

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 11:59 AM
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 12:04 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 11:50 AM)
u do know that fruity raged on the korean forum b4 his quarters (b4 he meet ogstop) about terran?
he even said he gonna swap to terran if he failed to reach top 4?
*
Typical gamer. "If I lost, it's not because of skill / technique. It's because of race".
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(roxxor89 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:17 AM)
LOOOOL!!!!
In anycase, if any of you are actual hardcore fans of the sc2 scene, you will realize that only non-koreans are complaining abt terran being OP. Infact even some top tier global players agree on the fact that its not the Marauders you should be worried about, its the Terran mechplay. The common reactive steps taken by amateur players against MM is to tech up which is in most cases, flawed (taking into account both players have no redundant macro). While it may work to a certain extent depending on numbers vs numbers, at the end of the day an all-out Tier 1 army will win via resource alone.

One commonly accepted fact is that, Terran as well as Protoss are far more beginner friendly to use. Zerg's gameplay and macrostyle is vastly different from the two other races that a competent Zerg player will usually be able to scale his skills across all the races.
*
btw try to beat MMM with gateway units alone...
u'll get decimated...
which is why pros tech up to colossus (or root gaming's 1gate1robo into 3gate1robo build for early immortal and superb FFs before a transition into colossus)....
stimmed MM roll all gateway units...

u need t3 units like colossus and HTs to beat t1 and 1.5 MM balls


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:08 pm
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:04 PM)
Typical gamer. "If I lost, it's not because of skill / technique. It's because of race".
*
for some1 that won the whole of GSL i am sure he has skill...
his teammates are known to be the best of their respective race and all 3 of them were the 100% favourites to win the whole GSL...

cool aka fruity: zerg
tester aka ssks: toss
clide aka cliiiiiiiiide: terran

i merely jz provide proof that koreans do whine about terran's imbaness...
before GSL, toss is considered the best race by korean until they saw how 1sided games are when toss's early game is abused...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:08 PM
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 11:38 AM)
WHO THE HELL COUNTERS MMM with cannons?

and mass repair fortress > any unit toss can make...



Added on October 13, 2010, 11:42 amfor those saying good things bout templar to counter MMM...
when is the last time u ever see templar being used by high lvl toss to beat MMM in major tournaments?





Added on October 13, 2010, 11:47 am

lol that's the WORST mistake u can make to focus down on the medic when engaging MMM...



*
Dunno what to say.
1: Please read, MM not MMM. I mean early MM (marine marauder). Marauder is deadly for protoss with shell upgrade (kiting). So the cannon can buy some time (and forcefield with sentry of course) to tech up until colossus OR HT. And cannon doesn't mean block your freaking exit, just some cannon at the side to help out. I never ask player to mass cannon like those going 1-base voidrays.

2: Mass repair can easy country by colussus, HT, or any freaking AOE attack to kill scv. Better yet, ignore the PF and go for his main. No one ask you to attack a PF with a bunch of melee units. Is like complaining zealot die to mutalisk is due to mutalisk OP.

3: HT is still effective, Colussus just easier to micro. And archon is underused in my opinion. But who cares, I am not those high level competition player, and not like I will be fighting those guys, so HT still effective as far as I concern. On top of that, unit counter is not the only thing in the game, unit positioning is very important as well.

4: it very much depends on your army composition. I always have Air anti air unit with me (viking, pheonix, muta), the moment you get rid of their marine, then focus their freaking medic with air unit. Marine die a lot easier than marauder. I didn't ask you to bring down the medic before marine, and I am refering to Marauder drop of someone stated earlier,which has no marine in the picture.


5: About mobility, Terran mobility is better than SCBW, but still not better than other races which is the main point. Who cares how is the game during SCBW, it's SC2 that we are disucssing. Terran is good at turtling, which a frontal attack is hard to break into terran base. Terran would make use of this advantages to defend. Just use your best advantages in the game, dont complain just because Terran is good at something. Protoss and Zerg have their own strength, utilize them.


6: I don't care much about what top players said. They keep switching their stand if you are aware of it, since long ago. The moment someone figure out a crazy way, people will start abusing it and others will say it's OP. The moment you can find a lot of counter to it, people switch stand again.



westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 12:18 PM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:12 PM)

6: I don't care much about what top players said. They keep switching their stand if you are aware of it, since long ago. The moment someone figure out a crazy way, people will start abusing it and others will say it's OP. The moment you can find a lot of counter to it, people switch stand again.
*
Couldn't agree more. Here's the proof:

QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM)

before GSL, toss is considered the best race by korean until they saw how 1sided games are when toss's early game is abused...
*
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:12 PM)
Dunno what to say.
1: Please read, MM not MMM. I mean early MM (marine marauder). Marauder is deadly for protoss with shell upgrade (kiting). So the cannon can buy some time (and forcefield with sentry of course) to tech up until colossus OR HT. And cannon doesn't mean block your freaking exit, just some cannon at the side to help out. I never ask player to mass cannon like those going 1-base voidrays.

2: Mass repair can easy country by colussus, HT, or any freaking AOE attack to kill scv. Better yet, ignore the PF and go for his main. No one ask you to attack a PF with a bunch of melee units. Is like complaining zealot die to mutalisk is due to mutalisk OP.

3: HT is still effective, Colussus just easier to micro. And archon is underused in my opinion. But who cares, I am not those high level competition player, and not like I will be fighting those guys, so HT still effective as far as I concern. On top of that, unit counter is not the only thing in the game, unit positioning is very important as well.

4: it very much depends on your army composition. I always have Air anti air unit with me (viking, pheonix, muta), the moment you get rid of their marine, then focus their freaking medic with air unit. Marine die a lot easier than marauder. I didn't ask you to bring down the medic before marine, and I am refering to Marauder drop of someone stated earlier,which has no marine in the picture.
5: About mobility, Terran mobility is better than SCBW, but still not better than other races which is the main point. Who cares how is the game during SCBW, it's SC2 that we are disucssing. Terran is good at turtling, which a frontal attack is hard to break into terran base. Terran would make use of this advantages to defend. Just use your best advantages in the game, dont complain just because Terran is good at something. Protoss and Zerg have their own strength, utilize them.
6: I don't care much about what top players said. They keep switching their stand if you are aware of it, since long ago. The moment someone figure out a crazy way, people will start abusing it and others will say it's OP. The moment you can find a lot of counter to it, people switch stand again.
*
1. as i said, u give away map control which u would jz get 2 medic and drop u... no offense but cannon-ing ur ramp vs terran is one of the dumbest thing u can do when u reach higher gold and retarded when u are diamond..

2. tell that to kiwikaki and huk from IEM NY k?
5 colossus cant break the fortress even when kiwi aimed the scvs...
there are still units around the fortress mind u (we are not talking bout scrub terrans)
the moment u spend time trying to break the PF, ur base is getting dropped...

3. u die before getting HT as agreed by the pros (and mid-high diamond)...
u take a early robo no matter wut due to the banshee styled builds (polt timing attack even need u to go 3-1-1) as well as to scout early on...
and even when ur colossus get EMP, u sitll have dps unlike templar...
archon getting emp-ed = 10hp crap...

4. going after the medics are the worse move u should do in an engagement as a said...
a drop does not count as an engagement as for drops, u would need to focus down the medic to avoid pickup micros which is a big survivability to the dropped units...

5. tell me how mobile is a toss compared to terran
IEM NY last week is so damn obvious...
watch fenix vs kiwikaki, huk vs qxc and kiwikaki vs qxc...
the immobility of toss is so glaring even when u have a bigger army...

6. i dun see much of the pros changing...
they just speak their mind in itnerviews how unbalanced terran are...
u dun balance a game based on bronze lvl players which only atk move...
bronze lvl players die to everything (lol @ toss's 60%+ win rate for lower leagues when its <50% for diamond)...


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:25 pm
QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:18 PM)
Couldn't agree more. Here's the proof:
*
note: GSL is the first major korean tournament...

IEM cologne brough us the 5raxreaper which state terran is OP
demuslim or was it dimaga said that due to his sponsors, he might be forced to quit zerg and go terran just to win some games...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:25 PM
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 12:26 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM)
6. i dun see much of the pros changing...
they just speak their mind in itnerviews how unbalanced terran are...
u dun balance a game based on bronze lvl players which only atk move...
bronze lvl players die to everything (lol @ toss's 60%+ win rate for lower leagues when its <50% for diamond)...
*
Yeah, sounds like Bronze players have no place in the game, even though they paid the same price in purchasing the game. "If you'are just a Bronze, keep your mouth shut, you've no right to voice".
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:26 PM)
Yeah, sounds like Bronze players have no place in the game, even though they paid the same price in purchasing the game. "If you'are just a Bronze, keep your mouth shut, you've no right to voice".
*
its a fact...
bronze players die to 4 gate all the game does that mean that 4gate is imba?
and wont bronze players improve over time (unless u think that bronze players are almost the noobs)?
wut happen if they get promoted and got creamed?
u set the metagame in the higher lvl as the reference to the lower leagues...
balancing the game among the bad players is not balance...

even if u buff storm/ fungal/ stim up to OP >9000 lvl, bronze players would nt be able to cast it at the right spot/ at the right time...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Oct 13 2010, 12:35 PM
shadow_0
post Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:05 PM)
btw try to beat MMM with gateway units alone...
u'll get decimated...
which is why pros tech up to colossus (or root gaming's 1gate1robo into 3gate1robo build for early immortal and superb FFs before a transition into colossus)....
stimmed MM roll all gateway units...

u need t3 units like colossus and HTs to beat t1 and 1.5 MM balls


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:08 pm

for some1 that won the whole of GSL i am sure he has skill...
his teammates are known to be the best of their respective race and all 3 of them were the 100% favourites to win the whole GSL...

cool aka fruity: zerg
tester aka ssks: toss
clide aka cliiiiiiiiide: terran

i merely jz provide proof that koreans do whine about terran's imbaness...
before GSL, toss is considered the best race by korean until they saw how 1sided games are when toss's early game is abused...
*
Firstly, failed argument. Tier is POINTLESS in SC2. Just like a single Stalker can kill a Phoenix. So Stalker is OP?
Second, Gateway unit can win MM, you need higher tier to win MMM.
It's your own freaking fault to use only gateway unit against a MMM.
2 or 3 Mediav can't do much in a MMM, but 2 or 3 Colussus can make a big deal VS MMM.
It's freaking pointless to compare this way.


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:40 pm
QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM)
1. as i said, u give away map control which u would jz get 2 medic and drop u... no offense but cannon-ing ur ramp vs terran is one of the dumbest thing u can do when u reach higher gold and retarded when u are diamond..

2. tell that to kiwikaki and huk from IEM NY k?
5 colossus cant break the fortress even when kiwi aimed the scvs...
there are still units around the fortress mind u (we are not talking bout scrub terrans)
the moment u spend time trying to break the PF, ur base is getting dropped...

3. u die before getting HT as agreed by the pros (and mid-high diamond)...
u take a early robo no matter wut due to the banshee styled builds (polt timing attack even need u to go 3-1-1) as well as to scout early on...
and even when ur colossus get EMP, u sitll have dps unlike templar...
archon getting emp-ed = 10hp crap...

4. going after the medics are the worse move u should do in an engagement as a said...
a drop does not count as an engagement as for drops, u would need to focus down the medic to avoid pickup micros which is a big survivability to the dropped units...

5. tell me how mobile is a toss compared to terran
IEM NY last week is so damn obvious...
watch fenix vs kiwikaki, huk vs qxc and kiwikaki vs qxc...
the immobility of toss is so glaring even when u have a bigger army...

6. i dun see much of the pros changing...
they just speak their mind in itnerviews how unbalanced terran are...
u dun balance a game based on bronze lvl players which only atk move...
bronze lvl players die to everything (lol @ toss's 60%+ win rate for lower leagues when its <50% for diamond)...


Added on October 13, 2010, 12:25 pm

note: GSL is the first major korean tournament...

IEM cologne brough us the 5raxreaper which state terran is OP
demuslim or was it dimaga said that due to his sponsors, he might be forced to quit zerg and go terran just to win some games...
*
Ghost have to spend like 4 EMP on it to make it 10hp. 3 EMP to make it 10hp and 50 shield. Yeah, it's easy to bring down the shield with EMP, but it would means less emp on other units. Archon size is pretty big, which 1 EMP fewer archon as compare to others. If you spread out your archon to the point that ghost can't emp all, the splash damage is handy against marines.

Too lazy to continue the argument.
Whatever, who am I to judged the game is balance or not, but neither are you or those pro. Things keep changing everyday and balance keep shifting everyday. Who cares.
As long as I have fun playing the game, I don't care much about other things.


This post has been edited by shadow_0: Oct 13 2010, 12:40 PM
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(shadow_0 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:34 PM)
Firstly, failed argument. Tier is POINTLESS in SC2. Just like a single Stalker can kill a Phoenix. So Stalker is OP?
Second, Gateway unit can win MM, you need higher tier to win MMM.
It's your own freaking fault to use only gateway unit against a MMM.
2 or 3 Mediav can't do much in a MMM, but 2 or 3 Colussus can make a big deal VS MMM.
It's freaking pointless to compare this way.
*
tier is not pointless when there is a big tier difference...
each base can only have a limited amount of gas which limits ur tech...

2-3 colossus is not good vs MMM...
colossus need their range to be effective...
again look at high lvl GSL or any similar lvl tournaments...
the magic number of colossus is 4 not 2-3...

no offense but wut u have been claiming is totally misleading...
when is the last time u see high lvl toss players focus down medics when engaging MMM?

to be fair, add me on bnet...
i'll take terran with only MM and u can go gateway units only...
i can show u how single MM with stim micro can wipe out ur whole gateway army with relative ease...
i can even kite chargelot with MM (no medic) around my opponent's base 3 times and then kill him with all my units at red...
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 12:46 PM

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QUOTE(evofantasy @ Oct 13 2010, 12:23 PM)
3. u die before getting HT as agreed by the pros (and mid-high diamond)...
u take a early robo no matter wut due to the banshee styled builds (polt timing attack even need u to go 3-1-1) as well as to scout early on...
and even when ur colossus get EMP, u sitll have dps unlike templar...
archon getting emp-ed = 10hp crap...
*
FYI, EMP drains all energy and 100shield not the other way round. archon got EMP-ed?? 10 hp, 250 shield remaining...still fairly good..
rclxms.gif
LoNeLy-Zhai
post Oct 13 2010, 12:54 PM

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Do the malaysian style

Why talk so much? Come la 1v1 jek chao

hahahaha
Quazacolt
post Oct 13 2010, 01:34 PM

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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


dimaga IINM.

to the rest siding with terrans: the ONLY reason pros are brought up its because THEY explored EVERY possibility as compared to people like you who never won a single cent in starcraft.

sure, frutty won GSL, but do you realize that even he has his woes against terran? and do you know that terrans' mass nerfing DURING GSL (which helped frutty btw, especially reaper/tank nerf) also significantly helped him? when tanks just dont OUTRIGHT DESTROY zerglings, frutty can actually close in, and take them out (or occupy marine fire while he carpet bomb)

you dont have much of a say when you clearly have not faced EVERY possible abuse a terran can inflict upon you if you're never at the highest level of play. (read: oGsTheSTC whom also, as shown on this thread, whooped frutty to the point im having doubts if that was actually frutty, whom won GSL by raping rainbow HARD)
nagflar
post Oct 13 2010, 01:37 PM

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simple like this if feel terran is op . just switch to terran . end of story . hehe
Quazacolt
post Oct 13 2010, 01:38 PM

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QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 12:26 PM)
Yeah, sounds like Bronze players have no place in the game, even though they paid the same price in purchasing the game. "If you'are just a Bronze, keep your mouth shut, you've no right to voice".
*
a unit is bad/unbalanced because of the lack of skill != balance.
blizzard will NOT buff a unit because a bronze cried it being weak

sure as hell bronze can voice out, whether they will be taken seriously on the other hand, is a whole different story. if you're bronze, you play with your other bronze, and you guys can cry about OP together


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:38 pm
QUOTE(nagflar @ Oct 13 2010, 01:37 PM)
simple like this if feel terran is op . just switch to terran . end of story . hehe
*
thats what the pros do tongue.gif


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


first off, WHY is tier not relevant? tier needs TIME and GAS to reach, while lower tier (read: MM) does not. you can be teching templars and colo, the MM will be at your gate saying hello. a good timing push is ~40-50 supply @ 6-8minute time frame.

at that point, toss have NO HT/colo. only thing they got is sentry to buy time. however, you're contained. grats. terran expand, while you struggle to break free. by the time you got a colo or ht, terran gets medi/tank/ghost. what do?


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm
QUOTE(LoNeLy-Zhai @ Oct 13 2010, 12:54 PM)
Do the malaysian style

Why talk so much? Come la 1v1 jek chao

hahahaha
*
evo threw the gauntlet. lol

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Oct 13 2010, 01:44 PM
Sichiri
post Oct 13 2010, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(nagflar @ Oct 13 2010, 01:37 PM)
simple like this if feel terran is op . just switch to terran . end of story . hehe
*
Terran won't be OP forever. see coming patch 1.2
xShinji
post Oct 13 2010, 02:24 PM

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@Shiciri ....this thread is about OPness of Terran for now ...

Anyway ......Aeco state a very good argument ....man ...so far.....He one of the malaysian watched alll major tournament game .....

Anyway ...HEI ...the world has more Protoss player than Terran player ...from what I seen after a/2 mth of this game launched. Protoss should be explored as much as Terran....

@Shadow ....Can I know what league you are in? ...to me League/ranking is a big matter : )
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post Oct 13 2010, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(Sichiri @ Oct 13 2010, 02:09 PM)
Terran won't be OP forever. see coming patch 1.2
*
yeah.

I wanna see longer fire range for Roaches and faster base movement for Overlord.
Moonflown
post Oct 13 2010, 03:32 PM

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This thread is heating up , just like any other threads with "OP" in it. *runs*
Quazacolt
post Oct 13 2010, 03:40 PM

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QUOTE(Moonflown @ Oct 13 2010, 03:32 PM)
This thread is heating up , just like any other threads with "OP" in it. *runs*
*
(User was temp banned for this post.)
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 03:40 PM)
(User was temp banned for this post.)
*
wow macam ini pun akan ban?? i'm new to this forum anyway =)

so back to the topic, any insights of wats coming up on the upcoming 1.2 patch??
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post Oct 13 2010, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 03:44 PM)
wow macam ini pun akan ban?? i'm new to this forum anyway =)

so back to the topic, any insights of wats coming up on the upcoming 1.2 patch??
*
Here's some insights. Not sure whether it's the most updated version though.

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1591512
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 01:38 PM)
a unit is bad/unbalanced because of the lack of skill != balance.
blizzard will NOT buff a unit because a bronze cried it being weak

sure as hell bronze can voice out, whether they will be taken seriously on the other hand, is a whole different story. if you're bronze, you play with your other bronze, and you guys can cry about OP together


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:38 pm

thats what the pros do tongue.gif


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


first off, WHY is tier not relevant? tier needs TIME and GAS to reach, while lower tier (read: MM) does not. you can be teching templars and colo, the MM will be at your gate saying hello. a good timing push is ~40-50 supply @ 6-8minute time frame.

at that point, toss have NO HT/colo. only thing they got is sentry to buy time. however, you're contained. grats. terran expand, while you struggle to break free. by the time you got a colo or ht, terran gets medi/tank/ghost. what do?


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm

evo threw the gauntlet. lol
*
lol not all pros...
idra wont be terran cause he got self respect...
as for dimaga, he is one of the best western zerg i've seen (besides idra) and when u see him saying that its such a big blow to the community (TL especially)

i dunno bout the other players here but i for one hate the feeling of being contained...
why? simple fact that u gotta move down ur ramp while he have already establish a pre-concave would rape ur army hard (see tester vs rainbow game 2)...
its nt easy to break a containment especially good players who know to pre-concave and play safe...
this is why using cannon at ur ramp is one of the worst thing u can do...
using sentry to FF the ramp is the better solution, cannons? stick them to ur mineral line for possible harass...

as for the gauntlet challenge, not being a terran player (while i random a lot and do get terran with high winning rate), i am fairly confident at my terran play...
MM would require u to have simple atk move micro to do well enuff to rape gateway armies...
compared to hw much i have been microing on my toss (FFs) and zerg (surround, flanking ,carpet bombing, magic boxing etc), that's pretty ez lol...

as for fruity in GSL?
i feel top would have won game 3 if he decided to atk after his early game harassment...
fruity was on like <20 drones and wut top do?
double expanded and waiting for 200/200 thor when ultralisk's saurfang bug is available doh.gif

QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 03:44 PM)
wow macam ini pun akan ban?? i'm new to this forum anyway =)

so back to the topic, any insights of wats coming up on the upcoming 1.2 patch??
*
its a parody of TL.net forums...
usually OP rants in live report threads would be suspended LOL...
roronoa_zorro
post Oct 13 2010, 03:58 PM

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mmm can easily counter by using high templar if u using toss
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(xShinji @ Oct 13 2010, 02:24 PM)
@Shiciri ....this thread is about OPness of Terran for now ...

Anyway ......Aeco state a very good argument ....man ...so far.....He one of the malaysian watched alll major tournament game .....

Anyway ...HEI ...the world has more Protoss player than Terran player ...from what I seen after a/2 mth of this game launched. Protoss should be explored as much as Terran....

@Shadow ....Can I know what league you are in? ...to me League/ranking is a big matter : )
*
imho, toss was pretty much explored during beta...
idra pointed out that the ceiling for toss (more like skill cap) is pretty low which is why he didnt continued his toss (he was a toss back in beta b4 zerg)...
upon release, we rarely see any new innovative toss play (besides inca's awesome cannon rush lol)

terran's peak was mostly during IEM cologne where the 5raxreaper broke apart the metagame for TvZ instead of the usual hellion/ banshee...
GSL then carried that on with some of the best early aggression terran could pull out (3marauder push, marine all-in, polt timing atk, repairion etc)...
recently tlo's double fac build is one of the best i've seen though being very very micro intensive...

i would say terran is now OP but nt as OP as most claimed...
the best terran matchup is still TvP where toss's early game vulnerability (limited openings) coupled with terran's flexible opening/ timing pushes and early game pressure (t1 t1.5) give terran such a big advantage...

QUOTE(hazairi @ Oct 13 2010, 02:40 PM)
yeah.

I wanna see longer fire range for Roaches and faster base movement for Overlord.
*
i rather have roach speed upgrable b4 lair...
i find mobility > range for roaches (i only get roaches for their mobility)
aLertz
post Oct 13 2010, 04:03 PM

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i gotta agree MM on early game would be quite powerful n hard to melt...

experienced it myself when playing random on team games such as 3v3 n 4v4...
just simply mass marines + marauders + stim and just roll over the other races in a timing push biggrin.gif
Quazacolt
post Oct 13 2010, 04:04 PM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 03:44 PM)
wow macam ini pun akan ban?? i'm new to this forum anyway =)

so back to the topic, any insights of wats coming up on the upcoming 1.2 patch??
*
id assume ur not a TL forum visitor wwww
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 04:06 PM

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QUOTE(roronoa_zorro @ Oct 13 2010, 03:58 PM)
mmm can easily counter by using high templar if u using toss
*
the problem is getting the templars as i've mentioned (pros said this as well)...
for u to go templar tech, u would need at least 3 gate to survive...
to get HT: -
- 3 gate (some sentry for FF/ GS)
- twillight council (charge is needed as well since u need to spend ur mienrals on zealot and its 200/200 to tech)
- templar archive
- pre-warp 2-3 HT for energy
- research storm
- research amulet
all of the above are very very very gas intensive (u cant support this off 1base and survive any atk i gurantee u)...
and its auto loose vs banshee openings (which is very very common by top lvl diamonds especially the polt timing atk)

not to loose to banshee, u need robo for obs...
that is a different tech tree, pretty gas intensive still to get since u would need 2 obs...
so why nt drop a bay and get colossus?
much easier tech, faster to get and cheaper...
and u wont auto loose vs emp...

though i suggest when u have 3 base, start getting HTs...
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 04:04 PM)
id assume ur not a TL forum visitor wwww
*
nope..not a big fan of that site....
Quazacolt
post Oct 13 2010, 05:17 PM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 04:54 PM)
nope..not a big fan of that site....
*
dont have to be. but they do have pretty much everything you'll want to know for SC/SC2 (remember wiki.teamliquid.net? lol)
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 05:33 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 05:17 PM)
dont have to be. but they do have pretty much everything you'll want to know for SC/SC2 (remember wiki.teamliquid.net? lol)
*
yea yea heard of it...who manages TL anyway?? foreigners?? i tot it was some local dorum jz like LYN...
i went there actually but theres too many stuff so end up din read=.=
evofantasy
post Oct 13 2010, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 05:33 PM)
yea yea heard of it...who manages TL anyway?? foreigners?? i tot it was some local dorum jz like LYN...
i went there actually but theres too many stuff so end up din read=.=
*
ya foreigners...
its the biggest non-korean/ china sc community out there (every1 except those 2 countries goes there though koreans go support TL a lot like cellawerra)
rlinux
post Oct 13 2010, 05:52 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 13 2010, 01:38 PM)
a unit is bad/unbalanced because of the lack of skill != balance.
blizzard will NOT buff a unit because a bronze cried it being weak

sure as hell bronze can voice out, whether they will be taken seriously on the other hand, is a whole different story. if you're bronze, you play with your other bronze, and you guys can cry about OP together


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:38 pm

thats what the pros do tongue.gif


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


first off, WHY is tier not relevant? tier needs TIME and GAS to reach, while lower tier (read: MM) does not. you can be teching templars and colo, the MM will be at your gate saying hello. a good timing push is ~40-50 supply @ 6-8minute time frame.

at that point, toss have NO HT/colo. only thing they got is sentry to buy time. however, you're contained. grats. terran expand, while you struggle to break free. by the time you got a colo or ht, terran gets medi/tank/ghost. what do?


Added on October 13, 2010, 1:44 pm

evo threw the gauntlet. lol
*
Agrees so much on this. In bronze, they can even cry on cannon rush. So cannons are OP too?
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE
Quote Blizzard:

Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned:

· We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.

· Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

· The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.

· We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don’t expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.
judging from that post, i assume by juz making this few changes doesn't really make terran any weaker?i mean these changes primarily is to indirectly nerf reaper i suppose??
i think adjusting roach and mara's range to be equal would be great for both parties??tongue.gif
cloudaeris
post Oct 13 2010, 06:43 PM

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if u guys pay attention enuf, fruitty always has trouble dealing with mmm n then backup wif tanks, his units including infestors r all dead b4 he can even touch the mmm, n tink of how costly the infestor is, 150 gas? n oni has like 90 hp which 2 tanks hits could easily kill it. i've seen many matches where fruitty was simply outmatched by STC using mmm+tanks.

for protoss tink of ht tech tree, pylon > gateway > cybernetics core > twilight council > templar archieves > storm + amulet research. ht is useless unless u get those two research done. tink of the time n cost to reach tat, while for mm u oni nid baracks n tech lab, n marauder cost like wht, 50 gas compared to ht 150 gas? u'd be dead b4 u even get templar archieves if the mm charge in wif stim.

as like i said in previous post, playing terran lately n i just pew all my way to win, my winning ratio improves by a heap too.

This post has been edited by cloudaeris: Oct 13 2010, 06:44 PM
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 06:54 PM

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Marauder costs only 25 gases. icon_rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by westley0214: Oct 13 2010, 06:54 PM
xShinji
post Oct 13 2010, 06:55 PM

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that overnerf for reaper....reaper is still used for early scout harass style
spursfan
post Oct 13 2010, 07:41 PM

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QUOTE(westley0214 @ Oct 13 2010, 11:26 AM)
Which is why, don't compare unit by unit. If you just look at the race balance this way you are going nowhere. Look at the overall gameplay. Might as well have just one race and not three races if all units have the same stat and building cost.
*

there are reasons why those 2 units should be compared
ultras are supposed to be hard counter counter for armored units ... thors are more of a utility kind of unit ...
food count is the same, resource to build is the same ...
logically, ultras should own thors ...

come to think of it, maybe thors are OP ... they'd even gun down BCs in a straight fight ... i guess they need a big nerf
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 08:28 PM

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QUOTE(spursfan @ Oct 13 2010, 07:41 PM)
there are reasons why those 2 units should be compared
ultras are supposed to be hard counter counter for armored units ... thors are more of a utility kind of unit ...
food count is the same, resource to build is the same ...
logically, ultras should own thors ...

come to think of it, maybe thors are OP ... they'd even gun down BCs in a straight fight ... i guess they need a big nerf
*
logically ultra can win thor 1 on 1 when there is no other units around...i've seen players ( pros dats being casted in HDstarcraft) tend to have thors vs ultras battle in choke point where oni 2 out of 8 ultras can atk at a time coz they're melee and thors' range atk jz happily blasting them from behind...dats the problem..

and i don think thor can win BC 1 on 1 though...unless its group mayb thors have the advantage...
IMO i don think ultras are OP, since their ram atk has been decreased after all... blush.gif
westley0214
post Oct 13 2010, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(spursfan @ Oct 13 2010, 07:41 PM)
there are reasons why those 2 units should be compared
ultras are supposed to be hard counter counter for armored units ... thors are more of a utility kind of unit ...
food count is the same, resource to build is the same ...
logically, ultras should own thors ...

come to think of it, maybe thors are OP ... they'd even gun down BCs in a straight fight ... i guess they need a big nerf
*
There's no way a Thor can beat a BC one on one. Before the BC nerf, two Thors can't even gun down a BC, without even using Yamato Cannon.

QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 08:28 PM)
logically ultra can win thor 1 on 1 when there is no other units around...i've seen players ( pros dats being casted in HDstarcraft) tend to have thors vs ultras battle in choke point where oni 2 out of 8 ultras can atk at a time coz they're melee and thors' range atk jz happily blasting them from behind...dats the problem..

and i don think thor can win BC 1 on 1 though...unless its group mayb thors have the advantage...
IMO i don think ultras are OP, since their ram atk has been decreased after all... blush.gif
*
Ultra's ram attack has not been decreased, it has been removed. Now Ultra will just use normal attack against building, which has more DPS (more powerful) anyway. Ram is a flaw in Blizz's design.
TSgnomemaster
post Oct 13 2010, 10:14 PM

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oh is it?? haha my mistake...this also means map plays a big role determining how well can ultralisk perform....not every map can simply build ultralisk and engage whick sucks....
spursfan
post Oct 14 2010, 06:26 AM

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QUOTE(gnomemaster @ Oct 13 2010, 08:28 PM)
logically ultra can win thor 1 on 1 when there is no other units around...i've seen players ( pros dats being casted in HDstarcraft) tend to have thors vs ultras battle in choke point where oni 2 out of 8 ultras can atk at a time coz they're melee and thors' range atk jz happily blasting them from behind...dats the problem..

and i don think thor can win BC 1 on 1 though...unless its group mayb thors have the advantage...
IMO i don think ultras are OP, since their ram atk has been decreased after all... blush.gif
*

i think what i saw was a bunch of thor vs some bc ... guess i was wrong ... my bad ...

Nandeska
post Oct 14 2010, 08:51 PM

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QUOTE(cloudaeris @ Oct 13 2010, 06:43 PM)
if u guys pay attention enuf, fruitty always has trouble dealing with mmm n then backup wif tanks, his units including infestors r all dead b4 he can even touch the mmm, n tink of how costly the infestor is, 150 gas? n oni has like 90 hp which 2 tanks hits could easily kill it. i've seen many matches where fruitty was simply outmatched by STC using mmm+tanks.

for protoss tink of ht tech tree, pylon > gateway > cybernetics core > twilight council > templar archieves > storm + amulet research. ht is useless unless u get those two research done. tink of the time n cost to reach tat, while for mm u oni nid baracks n tech lab, n marauder cost like wht, 50 gas compared to ht 150 gas? u'd be dead b4 u even get templar archieves if the mm charge in wif stim.

as like i said in previous post, playing terran lately n i just pew all my way to win, my winning ratio improves by a heap too.
*
HT can kill a lot more if placed nicely. What is your rank ? its hard to define your winning rate if you are playing in bronze~plat
Quazacolt
post Oct 14 2010, 08:54 PM

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QUOTE(Nandeska @ Oct 14 2010, 08:51 PM)
HT can kill a lot more if placed nicely. What is your rank ? its hard to define your winning rate if you are playing in bronze~plat
*
lol terran.
aftersteps
post Oct 14 2010, 08:58 PM

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sup quaza why you at us server ?
Quazacolt
post Oct 14 2010, 09:02 PM

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QUOTE(aftersteps @ Oct 14 2010, 08:58 PM)
sup quaza why you at us server ?
*
why not? lol.
Nandeska
post Oct 14 2010, 09:11 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Oct 14 2010, 08:54 PM)
lol terran.
*
lol random
Quazacolt
post Oct 14 2010, 09:35 PM

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QUOTE(Nandeska @ Oct 14 2010, 09:11 PM)
lol random
*
thread title:
QUOTE
Terran V Z/P, is terran dat imba??


and im only 33.3% T.

wwwwww
roxxor89
post Oct 15 2010, 10:53 AM

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Point taken evofantasy, and especially quazacolt. I was merely generalizing for the common players. My bad tongue.gif

 

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