walking on water??

western martial art uses muscle as fundamental strength

Blood letting - It is conceivable that historically, in the absence of other treatments for hypertension, bloodletting could sometimes have had a beneficial effect in temporarily reducing blood pressure by a reduction in blood volume.
Today 2010, it is use in specific cases like hemochromatosis, polycythemia vera, porphyria cutanea tarda, etc.

These days many human beings uses (put faith and believe in) the mobile phone without questioning its workings. Are they wrong?

Even if say, Feng Shui is true, and we've proven statistically that it works. We still need to know the workings. The workings is very important, because it determines application of a conclusion.

Now substitute Feng Shui with Newton's law of universal gravitation

Even if say, Newton's law of universal gravitation is true, and we've proven statistically that it works. We still need to know the workings. The workings is very important, because it determines application of a conclusion.
It was just 3 decades ago, everybody thinks Newton's law of universal gravitation is the truth but today we know better dun we? Newton's law has since been superseded by Einstein's theory of general relativity and today we arrive at the String Theory and M-theory.
Question - Was Newton's believes wrong?

You can never jump into the same river twice, technology moves on. In the future, your great great grandchildren would wonder what myth or faerie tales you are telling them when you talk about wired telephone and the need to walk into a room just to make a phone call!

Today, some of these ancient observations on house orientation are being use in building energy conservation homes. Obviously the sun orientation is going to be different for hot and tropical climates vs cold and temperate. Likewise for the wind direction - maximize exposure to cooling breezes.
So too will geological place will be important. Now you won't buy the 'Highland Towers', would you?
If you do your own laundry you would like a place that greets the morning sun right up to noon and you won't wan to come back, after a tired day to a hot bake living room?

I wonder why these things are not taught in schools? Why aren't anybody trying to use modern science to find it again?

Exactly, so you know what I mean by knowing, so that we know when to apply it right? When I talked about blood letting I was refering to the use of it to cure just about any sickness. Did they know what they were doing exactly? Only for those cases are they beneficial, but for all others it is harmful.

I've already touched on this. As I said, there's a difference between nobody knowing it, and somebody knowing it. If somebody knows about Feng Shui then let him prove it. He can't because the excuse is nobody knows the "real" Feng Shui which has been lost. In the case of a mobile phone, let the manufacturer tells us how it works, in other wards, if we know what exactly blood letting does and how it cures certain diseases, let the doctors tell us when it is applicable and when it does not. Not some monks whose inspiration come from dreams.

Secondly, Why are we comparing, something that works, with something which we are unsure whether it works or it's a matter of coincidence?

You got me there, I shouldn't have said statistically proven that it works, because Feng Shui obviously have not. What I meant to say was, "if we took statistic proof out of the equation" we would still need other forms of proof, or at least the workings, how such a conclusion can be acceptable.

In the case of Newton's law, we know how such a conclusion was derived, from observing how objects in motion behave, and do you still remember those experiments in Form 4, Form 5 physics? Those are the workings that proves Newton's law work. Newton didn't get his idea from a dream, and impose his idea simply because of that dream... or because "hey the ancient people believed it, it must have something to it". The ancient people believed a hell lot of things, I don't think that that's a reasonable means of determining that there is something to it.

The fact that Newton's law can be disproved proves that the scientific method works. It can be corrected. On the other hand, if you say that workings are not require, statistics are not required, no form of proof is required what so ever, then it will never be falsifiable. (version for those who can't follow the discussion: In otherwards, "Syok Sendiri")

Well more accurately Relativity just made an insertion, and not making Newton's law obsolete. only in cases of very small scale, very high speed or very strong gravitational fields does Newton's law take a back seat.


I don't get that.

Hum? Why do you say they are myth? You're saying if we don't pass down the knowledge as to how we came up with wired phones etc (only relics are found), and somehow everything began from scratch and they jumped straight to wireless tech?

Well in that case, if I'm still alive, then I'd really whack the head of that kid, who is still trying to make a wired phone and claiming it's a more reliable means of communication simply because "hey the ancients used it. It must somehow be more superior to what we are using now!".

@DarkNite, I think you are a logical person too, I don't think you believe this Feng Shui thing either, you're just defending it because you're not sure it's 100% false. Is this correct? You've avoided stating your belief.

I've touched on this before, I said, not to conflate logical understanding of how you should decide a site to start your project (ergonomics), with Feng Shui. If this were the case, then are you attributing why the egyptians, babylonians, and all the other ancient civilization for starting near a river, not forgetting every project in human history, which were built for certain geographical reason to have consulted chinese philosophers? .

I have stated this before, and I'll say it again, show me one saying from I ching, that tells what you mentioned earlier, and that this is not just you using your own mind, regardless of Feng Shui to decide that perhaps building too near a rubbish dump is not good, or not too build in flood prone areas, designing your building so air can flow freely will save energy for homes in warm climate, etc,etc,etc.

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Added on September 29, 2010, 3:35 pmI don't believe you can.... the workings are missing.

You can tell people that planting a tree infront of the house can keep your house cool, but if Joey yap says that the dragon of the tree will eat up your wealth, then you'd have to concede.

Edit: unless you counter him, by saying the pheonix of the talisman you sell, will distract that dragon, causing him to drop more wealth into your home instead of eating it.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 29 2010, 03:54 PM

On the contrary, planting a tree in front of the house is not that simple without observing the orientation of the house, its surrounding and the geology. Moreover what tree should you plant? Durian tree? Is nice but will it destroy your house foundation?

As far as I'm concern dunno who Joey Yap is but he can go and fly a dragon kite. I'm not into talisman so i dunno what it is all about.
don't think you believe this Feng Shui? Let's put it this way I'm the millions of people using the mobilephone without knowing or able to explain how it works. Only know how to use it for my benefit is good enough.
BUT do watch out for.....
(Robert T. Carroll sums up what feng shui has become in some cases:)

"... feng shui has become an aspect of interior decorating in the Western world and alleged masters of feng shui now hire themselves out for hefty sums to tell people such as Donald Trump which way his doors and other things should hang. Feng shui has also become another New Age "energy" scam with arrays of metaphysical products ... offered for sale to help you improve your health, maximize your potential, and guarantee fulfillment of some fortune cookie philosophy."

Hum... ok. But you've not explain why you mixed your own nose for ergonomics, with Feng Shui?

That's like learning to fight on your own and calling it Karate.

Ergonomics is study and analysis of the human, the machine, and/or working environment interface, which is kinda limited don you think?

Maybe you are being given a wrong perspective on Feng Shui. It is not always a superstitious scam. It is important to note, much of the knowledge behind it has been destroyed in during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s, thru the passage of time and lost in translation. Learning feng shui is still somewhat considered taboo in today's China.

The practice of Feng Shui is diverse and multi-faceted. There are many different schools and perspectives. The International Feng Shui Guild (IFSG) is a non-profit professional organization that presents the full diversity of Feng Shui. Do check them out. Also FYI, Singapore Polytechnic and other institutions like the New York College of Health Professions, many students (including engineers and interior designers) take courses on feng shui every year and go on to become feng shui (or geomancy) consultants.

If you say that something is lost... then how can you create your own, and tag it as coming from there? I don't get it.

Are you saying that (from your previous reply to my example) considering about tree roots growth effect on your house, as part of your decision on tree placing, is from Feng Shui? If so, which page of I Ching did you derive it from?

Or is there a technique derive from I Ching, or ancient Feng Shui, that tells you how to consider these things? example, rule of thumbs??
If on the other hand, there are techniques,

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Sep 30 2010, 11:42 AM

I'm sorry that I wrote too powderful england.

it is lost in mainland China, but the culture of fengshui, incent burning, hellnotes etc are still widely practised in HK, Msia, TW as well as Indonesia

I believe this is actual and probably the type of thing fengshui was originally based on. Practical observations. Over time people tokok tambah as it passed from person to person; others add nonsensical stuff to gain extra cash from "customers" etc etc. and it became what it is today.

Sorry but i'm a slow learner, really need ppl to spell out what they mean. You've just answered without answering again.

From what you just wrote, I can easily spin off multiple meanings.
1. You're being sarcastic, because you think you've already explained very clearly in simple english.
2. You're being apologetic, because you feel you're english isn't that good.
3. You're mocking me, for using poor english.

But if you don't want to say it, then nvm.

Anyway, just to summarise what I got from you thus far, you believe in Feng Shui, but not the hocus pocus 5 elements kind... You're guessing that whatever geographical reasoning you use in your are probably also in Feng Shui, but it was lost through the generation such as the Cultural Revolution so no one really knows. Having several organizations with this same belief, probably means there's something to Feng Shui.

As far as you know, you're method of geographical reasoning works. And it is Feng Shui.


Btw, perhaps I may have use the wrong word "ergonomics", but there must be a better word for geographic reasoning, than "Feng Shui". I noted that one dictionary definition of ergonomics defines it as not just work place improvement. However I'm not able to find it again, so nvm.

TheDoer - Like I said, I'm sorry.

Feng Shui was originally used to find an auspicious dwelling place for a shrine or a tomb. However, over the centuries it has become distorted and degraded into a gross superstition. There has been little systematic scientific research into feng shui, since the general scientific consensus is that it is superstition - So how? Catch 22?
Maybe The Envoy explaination is better for you to understand.
Feng Shui is lost? If you really want to learn more then try reading more books on history of feng shui and feng shui theories on the design of ancient Chinese tombs (actual ones that have been discovered), heritage buildings like Forbidden Place, modern buildings and architecture.
BTW it is more than geology, it also encompass astronomy.

Feng Shui consultant gen 1: "You, sir, must build your tomb away from the city as it will be safer from robbers"

Feng Shui consultant gen 1: "You, sir, must build your tomb away from the city as this is good fengshui"

Feng Shui consultant gen 2: "Build your tomb far from the city as the qi of the living will be sucked by that of the dead"

Feng Shui consultant gen 3: "Build your tomb far from the city as the qi of the living will be sucked by that of the dead, and for good fortune for your afterlife, buy these gold statues from me and place in these positions"

Ok I understand what you guys are saying now.

Thanks for that.

But can you prove, that that is the original reasoning to it?

Is it written on the tomb or found in ancient text? or is this just guess work?



I don't know how many feng shui books, I'll have to dive in to find such proof, so it'll be best to ask those who has read them.

Kinda off topic, just wanting to dispel some misconceptions about Chinese martial arts. Read at your own discretion.



This post has been edited by wongpeter: Oct 4 2010, 10:15 AM

if the qi master want to prove their power, then by all mean join a MMA fighting league like UFC or strikeforce. beat to crap out of Brock Lesnar, Anderson Silva. Mirko 'Cro Cop' Filipovi and prove MMA is not the more effective fighting system. and prove bruce lee to be wrong in mixing the method in various martial art style and not study the power of qi

Answer me this, did I say MMA was not effective as a martial art? Did I say Bruce Lee was wrong in what he did with his JKD? Even his master never placed any emphasis on this power of Qi, so when you manipulate your argument this way > "..prove bruce lee to be wrong in mixing the method in various martial art style and not study the power of qi", then you are by inference saying that Yip Man's system of Wing Chun was about the power of Qi which is misleading to say the least.

you said that in your post that it is not true MMA are more effective as kung fu. are you sure there is no element of qi in wing chun system?

and talking about quackery of qi and acupuncture

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

This post has been edited by robertngo: Oct 4 2010, 11:50 AM

Will you substitute anti biotics for acupuncture?

Efficiency here means, a combination of effort, speed, and simplicity.
My definition:

QUOTE

Effort- if you needed 1 hour to arm a weapon, to kill 1 random guy on the battle field, then it is not efficient.
Speed- if you require 100 hits before your enemy falls then that's not efficient.
Simplicity- If it's too complex, then there is a greater possibility of failure at any point of execution. Remember the Golden Rule "KISS".

Other's as in many, any other. Robert made a good point, such as MMA. They kick butt. And "Kung Fu" isn't top of their application techniques.

QUOTE(wongpeter @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM)

Those astro documentaries gave measurements like force and speed. We are talking about the limitations of the individual here and not about the art itself.

Yeah, I thought of that too. If you take the weakest of any art, to duel against the best of another art, the winner is obvious.

However in the program, it explains, where each technique gets it's power from. And the results ends with the test dummy. So, no matter which kung fu master does it, according to the maths, it will show you the same thing. There were no unexplained increase in impact from Kung Fu's Qi received by the dummy.

QUOTE(wongpeter @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM)

"A not related example, even the nanchucks which ppl think are hard hitting, actually have less force than if you hit directly with a stick of the same length."
[i]- This boils down to speed and force.Maybe nunchucks don't hit as hard as a pole but it may be a whole lot faster. So does that mean speed is not as efficient as force?
Correct me if I am wrong. Force = Mass X Velocity

Probably you didn't watch the program, but nunchucks loose force because of their recoil. Doesn't matter how much speed you put into them. It's always ends with a fraction of the initial force.

Complexity in the nunchucks also makes it, not a weapon of choice, the wielder, receives some of the force when retrieving the sticks. Then there's always a chance that the flailing nun chucks, will hit his elbow as he raises it.

Not very practical. This is a good example of "don't be fooled by self belief". Just because you feel, that you punch harder with the nun chucks, doesn't mean it actually does. likewise just because it appears to be. This is why, I say we need to do actual tests, instead on relying on people's subjective impression.

QUOTE(wongpeter @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM)

Yes, how much? Wing Chun works by punching the guy multiple times. In boxing a single punch can knock out the opponent.

Wing Chun sacrifices a full punch, for speed. It is successful, because it assumes the opponent will try to block his punches, and hey, a few dozen more is on the way. I would suggest the opponent take the blow and concentrate on well placed full punches.

From my observation, Wing Chun (not the popularised version in Ip Man), is basically a b**** slap technique. And even in western culture it works, imagine an old lady frantically slap a mugger, and the big tough mugger trying to protect himself?

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Added on October 28, 2010, 3:32 pmOh great another cuckoo.

This chap spams everybody, not knowing that I am against this nonesense.

This post has been edited by TheDoer: Oct 28 2010, 03:32 PM

yea, is a expensive product depend your belief.

may try https://chat.whatsapp.com/JjTjoc7FfAZ42mLzxNJrgL for free version to understanding.