All,

Of course, HUMAN need religion. We need it to

A) Treat people UNFAIRLY and claim that God tell us to do it.

B) Kill one and another in order to save each other souls.

C) Confused ourselves in order to misunderstood some simple rule like treat others like how you like to be treated

D) Claimed that we need to learn to read some book in order to learn MORALITY.

E) So that we do not need COMMON SENSE. All we need is to read and interpret what a book says and follows.

F) Or even worse, do not even learn to read that and just follow whatever someone says what the book says??

End of story.

Dreamer

P.S.: In summary, RELIGION is IRRELEVANT. It may be important to a person INDIVIDUALLY. But, as for MORALITY and so on, it NEITHER play a POSITIVE or NEGATIVE role.

A BAD person is a BAD person. A GOOD person is a GOOD person. This is INDEPENDENT of whether the person is RELIGIOUS. There are ENOUGH LOOPHOLES in every religions to let people do EVIL things and still claim that they are RELIGIOUS.

So, why don't we JUDGE a person based on UNIVERSAL MORALITY like the GOLDEN RULE? We do not NEED any book to tell us RIGHT from WRONG. Or, that is TOO SIMPLE?? Hence, we cannot HIDE behind RELIGION and do our EVIL stuff??

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Feb 12 2010, 06:13 AM

but the golden rule is too vague to be proper guideline some of the time.
eg. a masochist going around torturing people because he likes to be tortured?

or a psycopath killer, who goes around killing because he feels life (even his own) is worthless

or some bully who subscribe to the might is right mantra.

the golden rule is not violated in these cases but others are affected in a negative way.

lin00b,

<<the golden rule is too vague >>

1) As compare to believing whatever someone says that a book contains?? Which is WORSE??

2) Or, the book is written in some ancient language that only some priest can read?

Golden rule + Common Sense.

<<masochist going around torturing people because he likes to be tortured?>>

3) There are cultures where torture is part of the culture. Everyone like torture. So, when in Rome do what Roman does.

<<or some bully who subscribe to the might is right mantra.>>

4) The BULLY can be bullied too. What goes around and comes around. Then, it will stop.

<<or a psycopath killer, who goes around killing because he feels life (even his own) is worthless>>

5) Then, there is NOTHING WRONG to kill this killer too.

There are FEEDBACK mechanism to stop all those stuff. And, it has NOTHING to do with religion.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Feb 12 2010, 10:11 AM

4) the bully might accept he's weak and trains up.

3) 5) but i dont like killing/torture, so why should i change my moral compass to react to others?

Religion does exist and only one God that exist. The earth does not created by itself. Here a simple trick, take a small glass, throw in into mid air, and let it fall down as the gravity pull it, Leave it for 10 Years. come back and see what happen. Yes, it does not move even abit! Dont worry, leave it for even thousand years, nothing will happen to the glass. Just the same ol glass.

So, there are someone 'upthere' who create everything.

In conclusion, yes human do need religion.

why 1 god? why not a committee of gods and goddesses? then have highest mountain competition (won by creator of mt. everest) though the creator of some underwater mountain dispute that; etc etc.

seriously, your "logic" shows you do not understand how gravity works. here's a quick crash course, magnitude of gravity (attraction force) is directly related to how massive the object is (which your glass is very very small) so the "gravity" exerted by the pieces of glass is very very small. but even that, given long enough time, it should move; but it didnt. why? the pieces of glass is too close to a relatively very very very much larger source of gravity which pulls it and keep it in place. that source? earth

and finally, even if there is a being upthere that created everything, is there a need for an organization devoted to worshipping it? do you require that computer you created to worship you?

This post has been edited by lin00b: Feb 12 2010, 04:17 PM

if there are many gods, gods will have war with each other and us, humans = kaputt.

they will try to figure out which one is the most powerful, as people worships them.

that's why there is only one god, the ultimate creator. The One who create mass, time and space. We're been bounded by those 3 from the day we've been created in wombs until the day of our last breath.

You cannot make a comparison human = computer. If we created computer to worship us, it will worship us. But computer didn't, because now we created it to work for us, humans.

We need religion, as the religion teach us to a better person. ALMOST EVERY RELIGION teach that. Including respect for other people religion. People who insulting other people religion in any way isn't considered really practice the religion itself.

People created many extraordinary things, but who create the sun? The earth? The gravity? Or some kind of biological tissue which we call brain which can produced something we call emotions? That's god work.



There is evil. And there is good. That's why heaven and hell exist.

God does show where is heaven, where is hell. How does it look. The existence of both. But when? Second last breath of every human being. And then the last breath, and bye-bye.

Who dictates the golden rule? Who dictates the universal morality? If universal morality says it's good for health to eat our own shit because it's still have some nutrition in it, will you do it?

People who do evil stuff and hide behind religion is the person who does not understand the religion at all or pretend it is his/her religion for their own mission/target.

Every person is good from birth. Maybe there's some ups and down in their life, but we need to find the good side of us. I didn't see any religious book says prostitute or bank robber or cheaters can't enter heaven if they asked God to forgive their sins.

Loopholes in religion is misinterpretation of others regarding certain religion. If you study well about religion, you will understand. Don't just by have a snippet or hear some hearsay, you ultimately decide you belief. Thats just so immature.

Why God need us to worship Him? Simple. To let us realize how weak we are and need God help in things we need to do or accomplish. We're not perfect. We not strong as elephant. We cannot fly like birds. We cannot swim as deep as blue whale. We cannot hear some thing like bats hear. We cannot see some things that cats and dogs did. Plus many other things.

God doesn't even need us to worship Him. His power and greatness doesn't even reduced by a micron or even smaller even when we doesn't worship Him.

Let's see. Numbers. If its true human created it, the why until now we do not find the beginning of numbers? The end of numbers? We humans just found it and use it for our comfort. Until now we only know the middle of number which is zero.

Some people says this religion is ridiculous, some say it fallacy, or to be exact, its human who preach the religion. Not from God Himself.

I think if there's a sentence written on the moon where we can see it but not reach it since old times and it says:

"Dude, God dos exist. You know that? I tell you, God do exist. It's somewhere. Find it and you will found it. Duh."

People will 100% believe there is God.

I believe in religion because:
-Religion content me from doing anything bad. Although sometimes our own natural desires surpass the limitations of religion, there's always a chance to redo it as long I believe it.
-I know who am I. I am weak. And I need God's help and protection in evitable/unevitable, unforeseen circumstances.

The core of morality itself come from the religion. Religion teach us to bury the dead, or burn the body to ashes, or other things, and people treat it from time to time and came out 'COMMON SENSE'.



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

And this is where the irony comes in, humans are greedy by nature, so they will pervert (in some form or another) that which is good and holy into something else for their own personal gain. I think someone once aptly put it as "Religion is about who's imaginary friend is better/bigger".


A shame isn't it.

This is a good quote.

This post has been edited by ZeratoS: Feb 12 2010, 07:00 PM

in the same post you went from "we worship because we are created to worship" to "why god need us to worship" to "god dont need our worship"...

and you do not understand the golden rule. while it does have it weakness, its far better than most religious guidelines. why is it better? because its flexible. it remains relevant across time period and does not get outdated and need reinterpretation. and it gives a pretty good idea on how to treat others.

since you are harping on "everything must be created"; the simple question is "who created god"?

and why must there be war if there is more than 1 god? surely such supreme being(s) would have outgrown such primitive deeds.

if you think you are weak, then you are weak.

and i'm certain this rant belong move in bvnb (where such random ramblings will be picked apart more thoroughly)

while primitive humans need religion for various reasons. modern civilization has other better option to guide us to be better. ethics, social norms, logic, reason, thought, common sense. you argue it comes from religion. i say thats moot. regardless of where it comes from, it is capable of standing on its own now, and is doing a much better job than religion.

Religious guidelines is relevant across any period of time. However it depends on people who understand it, how they interpret it. One of the reason its the holy concept in it. It can't be altered any way you like. Because us human are always forget. Thats why there exist things like Post-it, diary, organizer etc. We need to be reminded. When we forget, theres always God to remember us, and holy book for us to look to, to reguide us to the right path.

Who created God? Simple. God doesn't need to be created. God just exist. He is there. There's no beginning nor an end to Him. Every single part (even I don't know this can be call 'part or not) of Him are not same as us. Its power, its existence cannot be compared to anything. Because He is the Almighty, The Ultimate Creator. He does't have partner. limitations, emotions and such. New or old can't be related to God at all. He is there. And he's not be bound by mass, time and space. Since He is the One who create those three.

This statement will lead to "Then God crate evil also? So God is evil?"

Good and evil are only interpretation of us human being. It's not being good people, it's to follow the way of God. God do create people who do evil, but evil itself did by the people, not God. That's why there's hell, to put people who do evil/not follow or disobey the way of God.

"so then why don't God create us to follow Him always?"

That thing can't be questioned. Every single existence has its own purpose in this world. People will asked 'why do we here?" and I believe that question is only can be answered by religious teaching. We do exist to follow the way of God and harness the goodness of Earth as good as we can. Mosquitoes have its own purpose. Flowers have its own purpose. Rocks have its own purpose.

This such of thinking can't be reached by human minds alone, and that's why there's a religion, teaching and the book to teach us this.

Why does there can't be more than 1 god? Look at Greek mythology, or some religion here in Malaysia who believe in more than 1 god, learn the history, and you will find they DO WAR.

What kind of 'Modern civilization doing the better job' do you refer to? I don't think so.

People around who know me doesn't think I'm weak. But I understand every single things happened are only allowed when God permits it. Isaac Newton will not made groundbreaking discovery if God doesn't permit it. What is the thing that need to be permitted? Will and willpower. We may be powerful, strong, have vast of knowledge but in the end, we can't do every single thing if there isn't will and willpower around and to be precise, will and willpower are solely owned by the God.

Even anybody here will to quote my text and reply according to their beliefs and understanding, it's because God's permitted you.

Who created gravity/mass/universe/time/space? Simple. gravity/mass/universe/time/space doesn't need to be created. gravity/mass/universe/time/space just exist. they is there. There's no beginning nor an end to them.

---

Added on February 13, 2010, 10:17 amwhy must existence have a purpose? why cant they simply exist, and even if they have purpose, what makes you think that it is to worship/follow god? who according to you both need and do not need or worship/following at the same time.

This post has been edited by lin00b: Feb 13 2010, 10:17 AM

better to have one, as ur guidance in ur life..
Moral Study is not enough, we need something that could hold our behaaviour...

Whether a religion is important or not, it is a personal thing i believe.

Religion to me represents a hope, or a light of guidance or a belief you can say. But the origins of religions through many generations and centuries might have been mis-interpreted by the people who are spreading them which could be a reason why things that happens today happened.

I don't want to say which religion is good and which is bad. To me, they are all the same at the basic core level.

I am not much of a religious person, i wouldn't want to take the way of having to live my life out of a book or having it to dictate my life. We are born to live our life whether it is good or bad and we learn and adapt to it. From there on, we will create our own life stances, views and our own set of rules to obey by.

Not that i think that it is the right way, but the higher power created us with brains so that we can think and evolve right? We are all being thought the few basic rules early in life and we get along from there on, along the way we use our senses and conscience so that we act correctly and logically and learn from the mistakes we make.

Most people nowadays will just base everything they read from their religion without understanding it and living through it. Life sometimes might be harsh but no guidebook will get you out of it.

For example, on things like gravity and planets and life in general, you can say the higher power created them but science on the other hand can explain otherwise. It just depends on what you belief and you will never be able to find out until the day you died (and you won't be able to tell anyone when you eventually find out)

its up to you to think about it... does existence of religion bother you?

yeah, we all felt the same thing . like something truly powerful exists in our life . but can we describe it clearly?

what i would like to say is , its the existence of god thats bother us

You are so going to get a lightning bolt up your ass...jus kiddin

As i said, whatever you believe in will take the rest of your natural life to find out and whether your decision is right or wrong is only regrettable by you yourself.

So that is life for us, whether it sucks when you think about it or you find it interesting. It is what it is, a mysterious subject that is unfathomable and there is no 1 direct answer that is applicable to all scenarios. You will only find the answer when you can tell it to no one.

ok fine, let me state clearly my point. religion and god is no like " ah, i believe in god, how about you?" or "im kinda religious person blah3 ..."

for me, religion is something you have to think about your after world @ upon death @ hereafter . its a choice you have to make in this world to determine your place in the next world . either you believe or not, the religion that provide me the answer is only Islam.

inb4 tldr, better you find the drill somewhere. which i would say that human does need real religion

That's the thing... as you say and i quote "you have to think about your after world @ upon death @ hereafter" and i agree it is a choice you have to make now and not a last minute pick and hope you have a place somewhere in the afterlife.

So what i say in the beginning that religion is some sort of a hope for people who believe in it is partly right and in a bad way to say, you will only find out if what you believe really brings you to where you want to be after you passed away.

I am not saying that human does not need a religion, people should just believe in what they believe in whether it is a religion or their own self beliefs. Religion gives you hope when all hope is lost but to me i don't feel it is right to embrace a religion only when "shit hits the fan" hoping that a religion will give you an exit path. You have to embrace it from the start and live through it and understand the ulterior meanings of what you learn it.

Which is why, to answer your initial question. The existence of religion doesn't bother me at all, i respect and honor the people who is religious and i also would try to understand the people who is a freethinker and is not tied to any religions. When people from each side starts dissing at each other whether it is religion against another religion or whether it is non-believers against religious people is causing problems that the world don't need which i think is pretty much what this thread is going to become sooner or later.

Lighten up We are still in the midst of a holiday, let's leave the brain mashing issues until we are back to work.

religion is a guide. Life is about balance anything u do over will become a burden or suffer.

+1.

this is soooo right.

it implies to any religion.

the question of if religion is necessary to human is only something an atheist need to concern with.

if you are a believer, that question does not arise, as to you it is real and obviously important.

if you are atheist, the question becomes does religion have its merits despite being something not true. thats when opinions about guidelines, moral code, control, etc comes into play.

so believers are advised to stay clear of this topic, unless you are willing to discuss based on merits despite not being true. this is a fine line to prevent the discussion devolving to "its true, it not, its true, its not..."