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Philosophy Do Human Need Religion?, some people say they can live without it

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ZeratoS
post Feb 17 2010, 02:02 PM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Feb 15 2010, 06:06 PM)
the question of if religion is necessary to human is only something an atheist need to concern with.

if you are a believer, that question does not arise, as to you it is real and obviously important.

if you are atheist, the question becomes does religion have its merits despite being something not true. thats when opinions about guidelines, moral code, control, etc comes into play.

so believers are advised to stay clear of this topic, unless you are willing to discuss based on merits despite not being true. this is a fine line to prevent the discussion devolving to "its true, it not, its true, its not..."
*
I think the apropriate phrase would be :

"Believers are expected to approach this subject with an open mind"

We all know how some believers tend to get angry at little things.
sheldon2105
post Feb 20 2010, 02:50 AM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Feb 15 2010, 03:06 AM)
the question of if religion is necessary to human is only something an atheist need to concern with.

if you are a believer, that question does not arise, as to you it is real and obviously important.

if you are atheist, the question becomes does religion have its merits despite being something not true. thats when opinions about guidelines, moral code, control, etc comes into play.

so believers are advised to stay clear of this topic, unless you are willing to discuss based on merits despite not being true. this is a fine line to prevent the discussion devolving to "its true, it not, its true, its not..."
*
Hello. I don't mean to barge in yet, I felt the need to reply to your comment. The question of whether religion is necessary is not relegated to Atheists alone. I am not an Atheist and I do not believe that religion is necessary or even valid for that matter.

I believe firmly in a Creator and anything worth believing in is worthy of open discussion. The truth should never be veiled or feared. Questions regarding guidelines, moral codes and control are not limited to Atheists. I question those things as well.
May I give you an example of what I mean? You say to me, Jesus Christ came to free man from rules, rituals and traditions, enabling him to "walk in the spirit", yet your religion is full of rules , rituals and traditions.

So, I find the need to question the validity of religion. To me, it has never been more than a method for social control. James Joyce said, "There is no heresy or philosophy more abhorrent to the church than human beings." I think what he meant was, in order for religion to flourish, we must follow it blindly...never questioning, never deviating. I think that is a mistake. Our Creator put brains in our heads for a reason.
lin00b
post Feb 20 2010, 03:28 AM

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you disagreed with organised religion, but as a believer, religion (in your case a personal religion) is a necessity for you? the belief that there is a god (aka religion) is important to you, yes?
sheldon2105
post Feb 20 2010, 07:29 AM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Feb 19 2010, 12:28 PM)
you disagreed with organised religion, but as a believer, religion (in your case a personal religion) is a necessity for you? the belief that there is a god (aka religion) is important to you, yes?
*
Hello again,
I think we may end up arguing semantics, or there could be a language barrier between us, so I would like to be clear about my beliefs.
I consider myself a spiritual individual...not a religious one. As a result, my spiritual beliefs differ from those of religionists. I know that the word "Spirituality" has taken on a disreputable meaning. Charlatans, magicians, and psychics are but a few of the derogatory descriptors. Some even call spirituality "new age mysticism", although, most spiritually based practices, like Paganism for example, pre-date most known religions...if not all of them.

For me, spirituality is...awareness. It is the realization that all of this was created; That there is a Creator; That we know absolutely nothing about who or what that Creator is.
For me, religion is the opposite of this. My belief in a Creator is not synonymous with religion. Is it necessary that one be religious to believe in something greater than himself? I do not think so.

As to the question of necessity...it is not necessary for me. My life has been decided by my own choices therefore, there is no need for me to look outside of myself for direction. I choose to explore my spirituality because I think it connects us to this planet, to each other and to the universe itself. We are made of the same stuff and that intrigues me.
As to the question of God...I do not believe in the conventional God of scripture. As I said, I know absolutely nothing about what or who created all of this. I simply know that it was created. I base that on a rational line of thought that I will explain, if I may?

I posit that existence is the antithesis of non-existence. Existence, then, cannot simply spring forth from non-existence without an external influence. Therefore, something created existence. I do not presume to know what or who that was, only that it is so.

The importance of a God then does not matter to me since my belief rests on the postulate I mentioned above. I believe that everything was created...whether that was by what people refer to as God remains to be seen.

This post has been edited by sheldon2105: Feb 20 2010, 07:34 AM
choongal
post Feb 20 2010, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(HexPhoenix @ Feb 12 2010, 05:22 PM)
if there are many gods, gods will have war with each other and us, humans = kaputt.

they will try to figure out which one is the most powerful, as people worships them.

that's why there is only one god, the ultimate creator. The One who create mass, time and space. We're been bounded by those 3 from the day we've been created in wombs until the day of our last breath.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
If there's many 'GODs'... they will NEVER have a war with each other... either wise, what they preach... they dont apply...
3dassets
post Feb 20 2010, 06:35 PM

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QUOTE(sheldon2105 @ Feb 20 2010, 07:29 AM)
Hello again,
                I think we may end up arguing semantics, or there could be a language barrier between us, so I would like to be clear about my beliefs.
I consider myself a spiritual individual...not a religious one. As a result, my spiritual beliefs differ from those of religionists. I know that the word "Spirituality" has taken on a disreputable meaning. Charlatans, magicians, and psychics are but a few of the derogatory descriptors. Some even call spirituality "new age mysticism", although, most spiritually based practices, like Paganism for example, pre-date most known religions...if not all of them.

For me, spirituality is...awareness. It is the realization that all of this was created; That there is a Creator; That we know absolutely nothing about who or what that Creator is.
For me, religion is the opposite of this. My belief in a Creator is not synonymous with religion. Is it necessary that one be religious to believe in something greater than himself? I do not think so.

As to the question of necessity...it is not necessary for me. My life has been decided by my own choices therefore, there is no need for me to look outside of myself for direction. I choose to explore my spirituality because I think it connects us to this planet, to each other and to the universe itself. We are made of the same stuff and that intrigues me.
As to the question of God...I do not believe in the conventional God of scripture. As I said, I know absolutely nothing about what or who created all of this. I simply know that it was created. I base that on a rational line of thought that I will explain, if I may?

I posit that existence is the antithesis of non-existence. Existence, then, cannot simply spring forth from non-existence without an external influence. Therefore, something created existence. I do not presume to know what or who that was, only that it is so.

The importance of a God then does not matter to me since my belief rests on the postulate I mentioned above. I believe that everything was created...whether that was by what people refer to as God remains to be seen.
*
Isn't that as simple as free thinker but why call it spiritual and that op for the definition of spirit as you have to explain. The term non believer seems like people who don't agree with the believer and don't sounds right either. I share your way of life, we have law, rules and regulations to govern our behavior so I don't need to follow anything or anyone unless my life is at stake that I must believe in something that cannot be explained or stop / close for discussion or improvement.
choongal
post Feb 20 2010, 08:33 PM

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QUOTE(3dassets @ Feb 20 2010, 06:35 PM)
Isn't that as simple as free thinker but why call it spiritual and that op for the definition of spirit as you have to explain. The term non believer seems like people who don't agree with the believer and don't sounds right either. I share your way of life, we have law, rules and regulations to govern our behavior so I don't need to follow anything or anyone unless my life is at stake that I must believe in something that cannot be explained or stop / close for discussion or improvement.
*
being spiritual is different from being a free thinker.

Free thinkers generally recognize something based on proof and reasoning.
Spiritualist (like me)... believe in the rules of life... we do not believe that there is a higher force that will do judgement onto us, but we take responsibility for any action we done unto others/ourselves...

Of course, there's a variety of free thinkers and spiritualists, but atleast that's the gist of it.
SUSjoe_star
post Feb 21 2010, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(sheldon2105 @ Feb 20 2010, 07:29 AM)
Hello again,
                I think we may end up arguing semantics, or there could be a language barrier between us, so I would like to be clear about my beliefs.
I consider myself a spiritual individual...not a religious one. As a result, my spiritual beliefs differ from those of religionists. I know that the word "Spirituality" has taken on a disreputable meaning. Charlatans, magicians, and psychics are but a few of the derogatory descriptors. Some even call spirituality "new age mysticism", although, most spiritually based practices, like Paganism for example, pre-date most known religions...if not all of them.

For me, spirituality is...awareness. It is the realization that all of this was created; That there is a Creator; That we know absolutely nothing about who or what that Creator is.
For me, religion is the opposite of this. My belief in a Creator is not synonymous with religion. Is it necessary that one be religious to believe in something greater than himself? I do not think so.

As to the question of necessity...it is not necessary for me. My life has been decided by my own choices therefore, there is no need for me to look outside of myself for direction. I choose to explore my spirituality because I think it connects us to this planet, to each other and to the universe itself. We are made of the same stuff and that intrigues me.
As to the question of God...I do not believe in the conventional God of scripture. As I said, I know absolutely nothing about what or who created all of this. I simply know that it was created. I base that on a rational line of thought that I will explain, if I may?

I posit that existence is the antithesis of non-existence. Existence, then, cannot simply spring forth from non-existence without an external influence. Therefore, something created existence. I do not presume to know what or who that was, only that it is so.

The importance of a God then does not matter to me since my belief rests on the postulate I mentioned above. I believe that everything was created...whether that was by what people refer to as God remains to be seen.
*
I suppose the concept of God and religion started off along similar lines with humans thousands of years ago. The only problem with that is that it leads to further questions. Once you conclude that everything was "created", it is only logical to consider next the question "why?" And then we go down the well trodden path of all the different belief systems in existence around the world. So honestly, your beliefs could be considered a personal religion of sorts imo.
lin00b
post Feb 21 2010, 12:26 AM

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sheldon2105;

i'd like to have more discussion on where you get this idea of a creator that is not linked to any organized religion. did it come to you after long hours of reasoning? or were you from a religion background that gradually slipped away until a "creator" is all that remain? or some other reason?

also, i think your concept of god is the "non interfering god" the being that did nothing more than pushing the start button and watch?

however, this is all OT to this thread; so maybe all the spiritualist can head over to real world issue to get into a nice flamefest with all the atheists there?
ellylinda
post Feb 21 2010, 08:15 AM

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I know a lot of atheist and those whole believe in higher power =X
sheldon2105
post Feb 21 2010, 09:10 AM

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QUOTE(joe_star @ Feb 20 2010, 09:10 AM)
I suppose the concept of God and religion started off along similar lines with humans thousands of years ago. The only problem with that is that it leads to further questions. Once you conclude that everything was "created", it is only logical to consider next the question "why?" And then we go down the well trodden path of all the different belief systems in existence around the world. So honestly, your beliefs could be considered a personal religion of sorts imo.
*
I like the way you think. I understand the way you think as I too have had those thoughts and if I remain true to myself then I never need worry about what I believe becoming a religion. It is personal and I choose not to take the well-trodden path and I also choose not to ask the next question. :)


Added on February 21, 2010, 9:14 am
QUOTE(3dassets @ Feb 20 2010, 03:35 AM)
Isn't that as simple as free thinker but why call it spiritual and that op for the definition of spirit as you have to explain. The term non believer seems like people who don't agree with the believer and don't sounds right either. I share your way of life, we have law, rules and regulations to govern our behavior so I don't need to follow anything or anyone unless my life is at stake that I must believe in something that cannot be explained or stop / close for discussion or improvement.
*
I am a spiritual freethinker. I believe in the mysteries of creation and the principles of science. Neither is exclusive from my perspective. :)


Added on February 21, 2010, 9:38 am
QUOTE(lin00b @ Feb 20 2010, 09:26 AM)
sheldon2105;

i'd like to have more discussion on where you get this idea of a creator that is not linked to any organized religion. did it come to you after long hours of reasoning? or were you from a religion background that gradually slipped away until a "creator" is all that remain? or some other reason?

also, i think your concept of god is the "non interfering god" the being that did nothing more than pushing the start button and watch?

however, this is all OT to this thread; so maybe all the spiritualist can head over to real world issue to get into a nice flamefest with all the atheists there?
*
My idea of a "Non-religious Creator" stems from my belief that religion is man-made and not a "divine revelation" in any way, shape or form, although I am certain I would not recognize what that looks like anyway. I am unconvinced in the theory of divinity as well. You are correct in your assumption of my belief in a "non-interfering Creator". For all I know, we are a science experiment. "God" is also a man-made word that I do not ascribe any value to. I have reached these conclusions after many years of reflection and yes, I come from a religious background and it was that which influences my current way of thinking probably more than any other thing. My religious upbringing always seemed misinformed and...xenophobic.

My friend...I do not think we are off topic at all. I am responding to the question as to whether man needs religion. In order to do that responsibly, I must offer some sort of explanation as to why I think we do not need religion. I can only do that by illustrating my personal beliefs. There may be another way to do so but this is the only way I know. :)

This post has been edited by sheldon2105: Feb 21 2010, 09:44 AM
.Dyth
post Feb 21 2010, 09:42 AM

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Religions exist to control human behavior.
Since most of the human are not strong enough.
dreamer101
post Feb 21 2010, 10:04 AM

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QUOTE(.Dyth @ Feb 21 2010, 09:42 AM)
Religions exist to control human behavior.
Since most of the human are not strong enough.
*
Dyth,

Then, you are a NON-BELIEVER.

If you are a BELIEVER and you BELIEVE there is a HIGHER POWER, the HIGHER POWER will exist and exert force on human being REGARDLESS of whether religion exists or not.

Do you need to BELIEVE in gravity in order for gravity to exist and cause apple to drop the tree??

Or course not.

Religion is an attempt to explain HIGHER POWER. If HIGHER POWER exists, regardless of whether the explanation exists, it is still there.

That is the PROBLEM of most "pretend" BELIEVER. Somehow, they BELIEVE the HIGHER POWER is so weak that human beings have to do something to enforce the rule.

Dreamer

P.S.: I can use my finger to point out where the moon is. But, unless the moon exists, the pointing is USELESS. And, once you know where the moon is, why do I need to point for you anymore??



This post has been edited by dreamer101: Feb 21 2010, 10:07 AM
sheldon2105
post Feb 21 2010, 12:05 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Feb 20 2010, 07:04 PM)
Dyth,


P.S.: I can use my finger to point out where the moon is.  But, unless the moon exists, the pointing is USELESS.  And, once you know where the moon is, why do I need to point for you anymore??
*
Well said. :)
dreamer101
post Feb 21 2010, 08:05 PM

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QUOTE(sheldon2105 @ Feb 21 2010, 12:05 PM)
Well said. smile.gif
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sheldon2105,

Thank you. But, I cannot take credit for this quote. This is coming from an OLD ZEN story.

Dreamer
kyosukekisaragi
post Feb 25 2010, 03:23 PM

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I'd like to just throw my opinion into the ring, judging from the many people here who give me a contrasting point of view.

I've been unemployed for some time, so I was thinking about religion and this is where I got to.

Does God exist? Who knows. I cannot say there is scientific evidence that says he does. But if he does exist, wouldn't he, as per the various holy books state, have the power to stay hidden from our scientific scopes and probes? A Catch-22 there.

Is religion important? I believe it is important to those who need it. In the past, people were afraid of many things, unexplainable phenomenon. When they saw a solar eclipse the first time, a rather rare occurrence, they may have thought something 'ate' the sun, and lacking the tools to come to the conclusion the moon was in between the sun and the earth, came out with a rather comforting though that a 'God' ate the sun, and with prayer the sun will show itself again (or it was a show of strength, etc etc etc).

As time evolved, so did man, and subsequently, science. We came up with explanations, with evidence, on certain occurrences in our lives. And so did religion. Religions began creating rules, and people followed. Some had reasons that, no matter how vague, seemed to make sense at the time. One example was the prayers of Muslim followers 5 times a day, which I heard was because He wanted his people to rest from the suns of the fields (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with this). Others, such as in Christianity states 'Treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself', would help foster closer ties among man, allowing them to assist each other in good and bad times.

Now in the modern world, I see religion, as stated by Friedrich Nietzsche, as God is dead. Not in a literal sense, but due to scientific advances many of His previous miracles and shows of power are not explained by science, or if it cannot be done so, explained as literary liberties by the scientific community....

I.. think I'm rambling here, so I'll cut straight to the point I initially wanted to say.

Do We Need Religion?

Long term, no. I believe if religion is slowly diluted by science for the next few generations or so, then mankind will live a rather okay life.

Short term, yes. If we were to remove religious institutions here and now, alot of misguided souls who had the impression 'All sinners will be judged by God', will realise there is no higher judgement, and break religious laws, just for the heck of it. Or depression will run rampant. Either way, it would be bad.
sheldon2105
post Feb 26 2010, 10:51 AM

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QUOTE(kyosukekisaragi @ Feb 25 2010, 12:23 AM)
I'd like to just throw my opinion into the ring, judging from the many people here who give me a contrasting point of view.

I've been unemployed for some time, so I was thinking about religion and this is where I got to.

Does God exist? Who knows. I cannot say there is scientific evidence that says he does. But if he does exist, wouldn't he, as per the various holy books state, have the power to stay hidden from our scientific scopes and probes? A Catch-22 there.

Is religion important? I believe it is important to those who need it. In the past, people were afraid of many things, unexplainable phenomenon. When they saw a solar eclipse the first time, a rather rare occurrence, they may have thought something 'ate' the sun, and lacking the tools to come to the conclusion the moon was in between the sun and the earth, came out with a rather comforting though that a 'God' ate the sun, and with prayer the sun will show itself again (or it was a show of strength, etc etc etc).

As time evolved, so did man, and subsequently, science. We came up with explanations, with evidence, on certain occurrences in our lives. And so did religion. Religions began creating rules, and people followed. Some had reasons that, no matter how vague, seemed to make sense at the time. One example was the prayers of Muslim followers 5 times a day, which I heard was because He wanted his people to rest from the suns of the fields (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with this). Others, such as in Christianity states 'Treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself', would help foster closer ties among man, allowing them to assist each other in good and bad times.

Now in the modern world, I see religion, as stated by Friedrich Nietzsche, as God is dead. Not in a literal sense, but due to scientific advances many of His previous miracles and shows of power are not explained by science, or if it cannot be done so, explained as literary liberties by the scientific community....

I.. think I'm rambling here, so I'll cut straight to the point I initially wanted to say.

Do We Need Religion?

Long term, no. I believe if religion is slowly diluted by science for the next few generations or so, then mankind will live a rather okay life.

Short term, yes. If we were to remove religious institutions here and now, alot of misguided souls who had the impression 'All sinners will be judged by God', will realise there is no higher judgement, and break religious laws, just for the heck of it. Or depression will run rampant. Either way, it would be bad.
*
Fantastic explanation...I think you should post this on www.goddiscussion.com :)

ffrulz
post Feb 26 2010, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(kyosukekisaragi @ Feb 25 2010, 03:23 PM)


Short term, yes. If we were to remove religious institutions here and now, alot of misguided souls who had the impression 'All sinners will be judged by God', will realise there is no higher judgement, and break religious laws, just for the heck of it. Or depression will run rampant. Either way, it would be bad.
*
The thing is, in the long term or short term, removing or abolishing religion I don't see it happening in anyway at all. If you encountered most of the religious people today, they are just frankly messed up in their minds.

Religion will stay irregardless of whether science has proved or not proved the existance of God or no.

See this.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Malaysia-bel...0.3718712171..1

After seeing all of these things, I just don't see a point in having religion at all.

Provocation, anger, insults. What more do you get from religion other than following some transparent being or imaginary friend.
kyosukekisaragi
post Feb 26 2010, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(ffrulz @ Feb 26 2010, 12:12 PM)
The thing is, in the long term or short term, removing or abolishing religion I don't see it happening in anyway at all. If you encountered most of the religious people today, they are just frankly messed up in their minds.

Religion will stay irregardless of whether science has proved or not proved the existance of God or no.

See this.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Malaysia-bel...0.3718712171..1

After seeing all of these things, I just don't see a point in having religion at all.

Provocation, anger, insults. What more do you get from religion other than following some transparent being or imaginary friend.
*
I agree that religion will be hard to be removed, but if you look, you can actually see it happening right now. Compared to several hundred years ago where governments were made up or strongly influenced by religious leaders (Like how the Church was in control of the reign of English kings, shamans of North American tribes being counsels of their people) or how stating opinions like 'God Does Not Exist' could get you lynched on the streets.

It's happening slowly, but as each scientific discovery will demystify religion, the grip of religion on our minds will slowly be reduced. Of course, this will take a long time.

Imagine in a future thanks to biotechnology, nanomachines, and such, a man is able to walk on water by harnessing surface tension, bring back the dead through usage of nano-robotics to repair broken tissue, and even turn water into wine by using molecular rearrangements? What is then differentiating this man from the feats that Jesus did in the Bible?

Religion would soon be a belief of the minority should that day come. But perhaps religion will evolve as well, becoming very much different from what we see today.....

And as for misguided people using religion as a political/economical/whatever tool, then I doubt that they really understand the meaning of their own religion. This is no longer about religion, but for the fanatical zealots using religion to suit their own purpose, very much like leaders using ideology like communism to further their own goals. Communism by itself, if you examine it closely, is really an utopia-like vision. But it's leaders that distorts it to suit their own needs.

After all, for every Osama bin Laden, we have a Mother Teresa, I believe. It's just that bad news propagates faster than good. Everybody wants to demonize the ******* that killed 50 people in a bomb, but few can name the medical doctors that went to save 50 people in Haiti after the crisis there; those that went just to help people in the name of God.
krazynivek
post Feb 28 2010, 12:27 AM

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views. all are just our views. nature/existence doesn't give a shit about your view or religion or beliefs. it only follow the nature laws.

for e.g. law of gravity, no matter what or how good we debate on the law, the nature still pull us down to earth.

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