Hi guys....


to me the issue remains;

1. preventing 'relocation' of BH premises from urban to rural/agriculture land.

- this includes enforcement methods, wavers and etc
- survival of swiftlets in closed down premises (chicks WILL die)
- utilizing international conventions of conservation... (just like historical buildings under preservation laws), once established as a haven/sanctuary/breeding area for swiftlets... it should be UNTOUCHABLE. Keyword, international conventions of conservation, prevention of cruelty to animals.
- who the f--k gave the idea that 'relocation' is possible? this is not conventional rearing of domesticated animals. i bear a grudge on this idiot. unless they come up with some sort solid transition or some miracle...

2. the distorted stigma of society

- the public and more so the authorities are either ignorant or just plain idiots or not even making an effort to understand the industry properly. how can they make decisions on something they don't know?
- swiftlets eat small insects including mosquitoes. the do not transfer blood borne human diseases. siapalah mangkuk ayyun yang percaya these stuff.
- no shit/guano outside of BH. they can't differentiate seriti.

3. stupid BH owners

- the ones who blare out audio 24hrs 7 days a week. seriously, just a few bad apples are enough to make society stereotype BH owners.

These are just some problems.... but in the end i still propose evidence based research. You have the contacts, associations and network... do a proper research (saying so means proper methodology, sampling, indicators and stuff) using one of the associations as a platform to prove these misconceptions as wrong. Yes, there is theoretical justification for everything , but evidence based is much more convincing. My advice, take at least 30-60 BH's. 5 is enough to make a chi square but it would be laughed at.

take note incidences of dengue, chikunguya or whatever health (human) indicators within a safe radius of 5 km? maybe less. Take note of key indicators of the population (swiftlets). Better still, try attaching the research with a public uni.

Dunno lah, i think we lack good record keeping and lack research. Maybe ask CK Lim on preparing a good questionnaire then asking your friends among BH owners to fill it in, and analyze the data. Of course making the questionanaires anonymous (so takde la invasion of privacy). Maybe some interviews, testimonials, etc. Supportive/complementary.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 29 2009, 09:00 AM

Thanks West Wing for your views. I love the term 'Sanctuary Providers', and this term should be considered a term for swiftlet conservation.

I believe there is a difference between relocation from caves to caves, caves to town BH's... and relocating from town BH's to the so called eco-farks (-parks) or agriculture land. The main difference? By the time a BH owner is able to reap the same value of harvests he or she had previously (or could possibly get if no relocation happened)... it would probably be from 6 feet under. It involves income, money, monetary gain... secondly it involves costs... buying/building a new BH or purchasing a new lot in the eco-fark. It would be more practical to leave the existing BH's alone (protecting the already established population) but enforce the rules to new BH operators.

Secondly... there maybe a misconception or the terms 'relocating' and 'migrating'. Theres a higher possibility the birds from caves migrated out of necessity rather than actually being relocated. Stress, over harvesting, safety etc. I do not see any reason relocation is necessary since the swiftlets are just fine staying in town BH's. Most of the complaints are baseless and more due to ignorance or envy and of course due to irresponsible owners.

Lastly, i still believe we are incapable of handling or managing the industry properly. The authorities lack the in depth knowledge, some industry players are just playing around for their own interests... and most producers rather keep a low profile and not get involved with the power play. I still hope one day all sincere owners will stand up with a unified voice to protect and defend the industry.

The wildlife department on the other hand, must buck up. Conservation is its sole essence of existence. What happened in Mukah violated that very essence. Operating permits? huh. You all know the story.

I also agree with West Wing. The Malay BH owners are mostly influential people. Again and again i pushed the idea of alliance. Use these peoples flair and influence for the benefit of the industry. The sincere ones la, not the lousy ones. Malaysia has some biases (will i get caught under ISA for this?) in its fundamental pillars of society, we should use that to our advantage.

Just one question... i have recently studied the mist system. New stuff. But interesting. Nest Tech & Crystal Swiftlets... can anyone vouch for them? Thanks.

interesting spin story uncle Ben, it was full of sarcasm and was fun to read. please take care of your health.

i agree half heartedly with ChanK's opinion. Business is business, survival of the fittest killing off competition. It is true in a sense. Its only logical standalones will reap benefits if town BH's were to 'relocate'. if this rule is implemented, many will face profit loss, or no profit at all. i am however more of a conservationist than an opportunist, meaning i am more against causing harm to these birds. closing town BH's is definitely a no-no... those Mukah pics still haunt me. again i mention, make a national level task force handling this issue and work with conservation bodies including international ones. go all out campaigning the health benefits of birds nest, make publicity stints and what not. if theres a will, theres a way. please do something before that lousy guideline gets official.

what i am worried about is these so called eco parks. yes, only time will tell how soon a housing area will be built nearby... and theres more logic using already existing shoplots than making new ones in mass proportions. there are so many empty lots, why build more? whose money is used? why force people to purchase such lots to operate BH's when an existing converted empty shoplot exists? Is it actually feasible to build hundreds of eco park units, what about over population, limited food supply and territorial roaming area? Have they considered the impact on the industry if these large scale ecoparks FAIL??? the bad image, the stigma will definitely worsen...

i tread carefully on who i meet with regards to BH's and the industry. i am wary of people that may have hidden agendas. i wish i can discuss face to face with other sincere forumers and see what can be planned out to prevent such biased rulings and guidelines. please consider my previous suggestions. it may sound far fetched but we never know when God just might show us a path to success. I will most possibly spend half my time with the bird nest industry and whatever related to it. If there is any need of my assistance, please say so. I can't do much..... maybe give suggestions, maybe link with a few people here and there, maybe even demonstrate (since i am kinda used to these stuff), maybe join petitions, write to papers, complain to gov agencies, PR work, whatever deemed necessary. I have my own small business and rather independent and obviously unafraid to speak my mind out.

the wind of change is in the air, lets hope it blows in our way.

by the way, the standalone's foundation is done, 1st floor currently in construction. i went thru the old threads about the mist system... it isn't as easy as i thought it would be, and even making an inventory of items proved to be an amazingly tough task (considering i know nuts about this stuff). if anyone can pm me regarding mist system, pumps, hoses, nozzles, Tee's, valve koks, and serial or parallel arrangements, please kindly give opinions, price lists, or whatever that might assist. thanks a bunch.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Apr 5 2009, 08:39 PM

omg. symptoms of crazy for birds syndrome? >.<
unfortunately... i'm also crazy about betta splendens, ornamental fish & serama.

i will keep your advice and experiences to heart. it is true i guess. i'm showing some of the symptoms as well... this is even before BH completion... must be wary of this.

i am planning to wait for the house to finish, but currently just sketching a bit to see what to expect. i am assuming the lowest to have the least number of nozzles and the highest floor the most. also inter floor holes and the monkey house.

i have heard of hoses bursting, a friend advised the Australian product and more than 1000psi resistance (1/4). i plan to put a tank supplying the pump, with two levels of filtration (pre-tank & pre-pump) to avoid problems such as water shortage and nozzle clotting.

nozzle wise... i found the type 1 and type 2 were the most commonly used (brass)... roughly the 2m and 3m spray distance or 6.56ft and 9.84ft... 60-70 degree angle (the size in nanometers, cant remember the exact value, i think it has something to do with how long the particles are suspended in the air... someone mentioned this before). they come with anti drip parts. basically the idea was to position the nozzles below the lower half of the wall, and ensuring no mist reaches the planks. the spacing, and layout... that might need some adjusting.

the pump itself.... macam2 ada. some high end, some so-so. still going thru the options.

i read earlier of the usage of hygrostats... was wondering how well they last in humid spaces. wont the sockets of plugs somehow be effected by the humidity? the issue of timers or hygrostats and whether to increase number of nozzles or to increase frequency of misting.... i think i'll have to do some R&D and experience it myself before deciding? assuming some BH's differ structurally (and as aeiou228 said, the locality). thanks all for the advice.

thanks a bunch ornimann!!! i had exactly the same idea (regarding number of nozzles reduced according to floor height). thanks for your advice.

i was also thinking of installing another filter (besides the pump filter) or pre-tank filter or maybe post water-meter filter? one main problem of the mist system is nozzle blockage. i am assuming you use the anti-drip nozzles? bloody expensive the whole set. i'll be using the 2500psi hoses (aussie)... and heavy duty brass end, center and Tee's... with a 60 nozz pump, 4 LPM. but still tallying the cost vs benefits.... it is rather costly.

everyone, please take care of your health. later on MOH ban the swiftlet industry becoz too many go nuts! >.<

lets hope for the best. the new PM's maiden speech was very encouraging for the bird's nest industry... hopefully its not just 'aesthetics' or 'superficial'. why not the industry leaders go meet the new PM and voice out the problems faced by BH owners... formally. now still new in office... i'm sure he's willing to make time to hear grouses... especially when the present government is aiming for 'reform'. >.<

hi guys. recently Rosmah came to Rembau... the reception? Was like she was the PM herself... banners all the way from the toll to the Rembau town. I think the one holding real power is Rosmah, not the PM.

anyways, point 5 of West Wing's recent post... arrived in KT around 6pm... as usual, the BH in KT town were blasting away their bird calls. Just stand anywhere at the bus terminal and you'd definitely hear it. 24hrs maybe?

All the best guys. MY standalone is still up and coming. Can't wait for completion so i can tamper with the audio and mist. Anticipation...

i think the new gov administration should really look into the problems of the BN industry seriously, implement suitable rules and regulations and at the same time doing both qualitative and quantitative research BEFORE drawing such guidelines. having said this... the industry players should take the initiative to form an advisory panel of sorts (a proper panel representing associations and having the support of BH owners) to advise the relevant government agencies...educating, guiding and most importantly eradicating the social stigma about the industry.

we are all aware of the nuisance of rogue BH owners.. blasting audios and stuff... and this small group even being small, can tarnish the industry as whole. how can we change them? i assume this is one role that should be played by the associations.

what i fear most is when a specific ruling/undang2 kecil tempatan (be it from the PBT, Veterinar or Perhilitan) crops up to annihilate totally town BH's.... all because of some errant owners. this is possible, but i did mention on how we could avoid this many times.

I mentioned before on some experiences with gov agencies... the words 'saya tak minat amik tahu' or 'mengarut la buat rumah burung' is not uncommon. commercial banks on the other hand are more receptive. i went and met an AgroBank officer and after introductions, i asked him outright what did he know about the BN industry, the answer was as expected, not much. I took some 30 minutes summarizing the issues and technical info for him to get an idea, this includes short term and long term plans. The reason? i did not want to talk or discuss with someone totally ignorant of the industry. The best part is, no one in N9 has ever applied for such a loan for a BH project. I am sure some maybe uneasy with this, explaining bits and pieces... but my rational is... IF i get this loan, whatever the value... it will pave the way for future entrepreneurs interested. By presenting in a professionally businesslike manner, it will give the impression that this industry is ready for the next level... large scale BUT strategically planned BH's and indirectly educating financial institutions with the limited info i have (NOT those agro parks, i consider them evil).

Some relevant points;

1. being a pioneer for a standalone unit (actually theres another 2 standalone, but more than 15km away), it will help build population for those that might want to get involved in the future.
2. the creation of a new rural industry, a standalone BH on agriculture land, hopefully a sample BH following the rules to the dot.
3. job opportunities for locals. God willing, it can give jobs to rural folk(processing, security).
4. usage of idle land
5. increase land value of surrounding plots

I had an audience with the Ketua kampung, very receptive. Will meet the YB soon once i get back from KT. Will need his endorsement and support. There were many shop BH's within the vicinity, but i haven't had the chance to meet the owners, also don't know what to expect (reaction) when i do meet them. hopefully it will be positive. some units were closed due to complaints by locals. THIS is an example of the problems... which needs to be addressed.

Please give feed back. I will need all the info and advice i can get to tread these next few months, particularly when building in a traditional setting, with lots of politicking.

Owh, by the way, i got a support letter from Jabatan Veterinar... came at 10am to submit the letter... was called at 11am to come pick up the support letter... ???????? wtf???? A friend of mine... took 3 weeks just to get a letter... it took me less than 2 hours. So something must be wrong somewhere. Kudos to Jabatan Veterinar and efforts by Dr. Redzuan (in whatever capacity he can contribute). Jabatan Veterinar should call up Dr. CK Lim or Unlce Ben or other esteemed sifu's to brief officers. I have the same hope with ChanK, the veterinary dept should be more involved. We can assist this by meeting and discussing with officers, at any chance we get.

Sorry for babbling, just wanted to share my experiences. I am mostly guided by a sifu from KT, but i believe knowledge and wisdom cannot be gained just from a few teachers, but from a bunch coupled with personal experience.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Apr 17 2009, 04:05 PM

Uncle Ben is right. New definitions must be coupled with new set of rules. Old outdated set of rules should be flushed down the drain (again with proper guidance from wise bird men).

Yes Bobby C, the banks will only offer 60-70% of land value OR 80-90% of project cost, whichever is lower. To me whats more important is the issue of interest... you can check the rates but so far, the 4% by AgroBank is the best... this comes under the Gov scheme. BNM pumps money into AgroBank/SME/other financial outlets to be disbursed through these entities with terms and conditions deemed fit by them. Take example, the 3F or other fancy names. I hear they have tons of money underutilized. Why? They ARE commercial banks. The pra-syarat or terms won't help new guys, despite the fact that its new guys that need help the most. Money doesn't flow out, interest for them? At least thats what i think. Not too familiar with these banking stuff.

Anyway, i've always considered most government agencies as being prehistoric in attitude and performance. Only a few agencies have improved.

Here's an example... since we all acknowledge Malaysia as Boleh Land... lets say... the old MOA... plus MEDC... plus Pembangunan Luar bandar... Women & Family... Belia & Sukan apa lagi? Some have their own agencies to assist rural development... lets list 'em down;

1. JKM
2. JKK
3. Agri Dept
4. Vet Dept
5. FAMA
6. FELDA
7. FELCRA
8. Whatever other Fel or KETENGAH or that has an A in the end
9. MARA
10. TEKUN
11. KEMAS
12. INFRA (owh, thats another one with an A)
13. Peladang
14. 4B

and maybe a bunch more we don't even know exist. not all have existed for 50 years, but most more than 10 years some 20-30 years. has poverty rate significantly been reduced? has the agriculture sector REALLY helped rural people? or has the policies implemented only stuffed the coffers of gigantic corporations like FELDA and Sime Darby?
(do you have any idea how much FELDA is worth??????????????????????????????????????)

a clear example... tax payers (US) support the Welfare Department... they distribute it to the so called hard core poor. yes... they distribute it to the poor. taxes from rich bastards and big c/o's. now... from who do you think they receive the names of the hard core poor? besides those who apply for help la... from the JKKKKKKKKKKKKK. ok... who are the JKKK? owh, just politically influenced dinosaurs who think they still live in colonial rule and seriously believe they are fighting for Malay supremacy. owh... whose names do they submit to the welfare dept? aaa... only their nieces, aunts, uncles, cousins, relatives and don't forget their wifes step uncles grandchildren twice removed as well.

my point is... the policy or program is idealistic and good. but the delivery system to the end beneficiary or the people who should be helped stinks like shit. this applies to most policies that were thought and planned while ministers were passing out their bowel contents. no proper research was done, no pilots were made, and no viable data compiled (since most data and statistics were doctored or tailored for the ministers preference). the second main reason is because the deliverers (the people who deliver) are not properly trained or have the proper attitude. a good example are these young agriculture officers... these fresh idiots from universities. they come out with degrees in horticulture or soil sciences or even botany... but once on the job they couldn't care less going to site visits and actually getting their hands dirty. Jabatan Pertanian is having this problem with the new Agriculture Officers. How the hell can you advise a person on how to properly apply lime when the only lime they have seen is in books? same goes to the veterinarians... once when we were going to transfer 1000 ducks (we had to get the vets consent) the vet came and asked us' "Are these ducks healthy?", when smack in front of her there were 3,000 ducks. WTF.

just expressing my point of view. lets just hope the slogan One Malaysia, People First, Performance Now doesn't actually mean;

One Malaysia (My Malaysia), People First (My Own People/Cronies), Performance Now (Just forget the First 50 years).

haish, seems to me i was a bit too emotional in my previous post. sorry for that but i hope we get the idea that what is needed is basically;

1. properly outlined guidelines... advised by the right people from the right technical fields. not aesthetic rules from ignorant policy makers or syok sendiri people.

2. the guideline must be industry friendly and applicable to both standalone and shoplot units, but the main core is still 'preservation' of existing BH's and conservation.

3. empower the veterinary department, reduce restrictions from perhilitan. these are organized, systematic and custom designed BH's, not caves.

4. ensure proper training and education of relevant agencies with jurisdiction. this again emphasizes on 'conservation' and income generating activities.

5. empower state level associations with certain levels of authority over members. a good example is barring membership to errant BH owners. i am sure the agencies won't allow such empowerment but the society can make its own code of ethics or set of rules (just make sure they are registered with ROS). no membership, no support from the society, maybe make it compulsory to join state associations? then again, some associations are dysfunctional from what i've heard.

6. state and national level associations must be more vocal (promoting and voicing out members concern) and get more involvement of the Malay counterparts. the reason being, the more Malay representation, the more likely the increase of political leverage. Malaysia the Boleh Land. I explained this many times before. we should take advantage of this.

7. If people like CK Lim, unlce ben, west wing, Ir Lee, aeiou28, tirok, can churn up a paper on international conservation conventions/policies (related to swiftlets)... it would be cool. maybe write to a few esteemed conservationists, get involvement of MNS, WWF (not the wrestling one) etc... might have an impact. since the main issue currently is still on shoplot BH's, this should be the best way to prevent the so called 'relocation' and other non conducive guidelines.

8. get involvement of financial institutions. or at least big corporations which will give additional leverage to the industry. JUST DON'T make it so that it becomes like Bernas or Pharmaniaga.

my two to 5 cents of thought. if i offended anyone in any post, i publicly apologize and stress that these are personal views. freedom of expression, freedom of speech (which in Malaysia almost always translates as; 'say anything as long as it doesn't go against the government').

ykltpm... i think thats a good example of a poorly advised exco, and most probably the people advising him rather bend to the MISCONCEPTIONS the public has about swiftlets rather than telling the facts and truth AND educating the public. To them it's easier to please the public and look good doing their job rather than understanding the industry's factual and actual problems. Lets email him (nice emails please, no ganas2 ones, we want to educate, not condemn, unless deemed necessary).

Y.B. TUAN RONNIE LIU TIAN KHIEW
ADUN N47 PANDAMARAN
PORTFOLIO : PENGERUSI JAWATANKUASA TETAP KERAJAAN TEMPATAN, KAJIAN DAN PENYELIDIKAN
ALAMAT PEJABAT : PEJABAT AHLI MAJLIS MESYUARAT KERAJAAN NEGERI SELANGOR, TINGKAT 15, BANGUNAN SSAAS, 40503 SHAH ALAM
TEL : 03-55447150
Email : ronnieliu@selangor.gov.my

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Apr 20 2009, 04:26 PM

lol, i thought uncle ben was still in psych ward, drugged and thrown in an isolated padded room. please take care of your health old man.

state of confusion, where to stand..... this is exactly what must be made clear. i know everyone has their own interest, but i am sure there are a few common interests acceptable to all BH owners... less redtape, abolishment of ridiculous rules & proper advice reaching the authorities. Hehe... maybe asking for each PBT to have their own BH is a bit farfetched West Wing, but it may just be possible IF the proper approach, training and education is given.

I have my own dream and aspirations as well. To make the industry a 'sustainable' source of income for the needy, making it part of YBK's program or the WD's. Maybe 1 kampung, 1 BH. Train 'em to manage, maintain and process BN. 1 BH should be able to sustain at least 20-30 families. Get the structure right, the management detailed and logged... should be ok. This would certainly help Malaysia compete more seriously with Indonesia. Anyways, this is all just wishful thinking and idealistic. ahhaha!

can someone initiate a study on international conservation conventions? i dont have the resources. just in case a stupid legislation is enforced, we can shout violation of international conservation conventions demonstrate in front of parliament wearing baby swiftlet suits while burning perhilitan or pbt logos!!!! Maybe make a pantomime on how a pair of swiftlets coming home from feeding but finding their kids dead on the floor inside a baldi surrounded by enforcement officers... call greenpeace (make sure most of them are hot babes wearing feathers only as protest) and NG Asia. should be cool.

not related to any of the recent previous posts..... does anyone know exactly just what type of insects these aerodramus/coloccia prey on? i just know roughly that they feed on insects less than 2cm in length (besides fruit flies) but what type/species... in the dark. also can't find any research about it. maybe its a tad too difficult to do? (just want to know if they actually do prey on agricultural pests)

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Apr 24 2009, 08:26 AM

thanks for the info guys. was planning to clear a plot of land nearby BH, rather than burn it down (pollution), was thinking of just 'longgok' at on spot and let whatever insects breed (of course from a safe distance from BH plus BH treatment for white ants).

also considering making a sustainable scale ayam kampung farm. still planning and going here and there visiting organized farms. have to study first before even considering. but what i am worried is the flies... swiftlets eats flies. chicken shit = flies. chicken = poultry = possible infections. I am planning to do proper vaccinations (water & injection) plus usage of EM on the ayam kampung. should be good to do integrated farming (small scale) while waiting for the birds to nest. if anyone already has an ayam kampung farm, please give me advice. thanks.

still the same, courier services still go thru customs and stuff... and they are bounded by the same rules (controlled item by customs & perhilitan). but a diplomatic pouch might be possible... if you have some guys in the Malaysian Consulate in China OR a friend in China's Embassy here in Malaysia. Normally, diplomatic pouches aren't inspected. but thats just an idea...

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Apr 27 2009, 08:39 AM

getting less than 30/sft for a bird house is within reach. As uncle said, even RM25/ and possibly lower, is attainable. with a few conditions of course;

1. Detailed planning, design & drawing (with proper selection of material)
2. Proper land preparation
3. Competent workers who know their stuff and can push 7 to 7 working hours
4. NO shortage of building material
5. Not during rainy season
6. Access road to site of BH (this can be a major issue at times)
7. Acceptable rates (pay) of workers
8. Take good care of workers (honestly, Indonesians are skilled and fast doing work. they'd appreciate a karton of gudang garam once a week, or maybe a freshly slaughtered ayam kampung once in a while, and make sure they have appropriate accommodation)
9. Of course all monitored, purchased and supervised by yourself. In other words, NO consultants.
10. Rule of thumb, anything delaying construction equals to increase cost.
10. Care to add more?

Talking about aroma... maybe will be using 20L before launch. Roughly 20L. Do you think it's enough for a 30x80 3 floor unit?

i think buying material in bulk helps a lot to reduce cost. shortage of material = delay = increase cost. supervising, buying yourself added with a trustworthy team of workers should reduce cost (a lot).

MOA has recently called up some bumi consultants, not sure yet of the outcome. hopefully, no ill advice. i think restructuring the agencies (or rather revise) which agency should be handling house nests (preferably the Veterinary Department) can alleviate the current situation.

still patiently waiting for my BH to complete.... anticipation............

well, the only obvious solution is go for agri land... but needs $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

swift4ever, can you kindly translate and give the main points of that article? thanks a bunch.

2012... less than 3 years.

how will we be able to know when and if the new guideline is out? i am assuming this will include or apply to standalone units... despite what one speaker from kementerian perumahan & kerajaan tempatan said (agriland BH not under their jurisdiction). Maybe he said that just to make us feel good...

...

...

...

Again, should do some campaigning.

Lucas 1 is still alive!!!! Thank God!

Yeah, you said it man. But i thought it only needs 7 members to start off an association. Maybe i got my facts wrong.

Unity, heck, that summarizes things nicely. 1Swiftlet??? Someone should come up with a motto. At least for this thread.

Watched it by chance, sorry couldn't record it. Mr. Jown Low did a nice job explaining a bit about the industry. Dis some searching, he also appeared on Bernama in 2008. Keep up the good work. A reminder on what other societies/associations are doing... can't just let the Mukah gang do all the work can we? He also mentioned the difficulties in getting permits.... hehehehe.... i'm sure the related authorities will have 'buntut panas, tak senang duduk' for a while. Get MACC involved? hehehehe.

Anyways, recently made a few friends. It is interesting to see how this industry can bond us, cross culture, cross race, cross religion. I am kinda grateful having stumbled on this industry. Sure opened up my eyes.

Anyways, progress of BH slow.Having ridiculous problems with my contractor cum consultant. Whatever it is, will make sure if he doesn't complete it on time, not only his c/o but his name itself will be erased and never mentioned in the swiftlet industry again. Can't let one bad apple tarnish the whole lot now can we?