So you think with only 4000 plus pharmacists, that's sufficient?
You seriously need to take english class, particular on the word "can" and "sufficient".

I know LKS have many reasons. I am just wondering why SAFETY is never one of his reason mentioned so my conclusion is that he think Malaysian life are cheaper than developed countries. That's all.

So tell me, is the government going to permanently implement this dispensing right or it is just a trial.

Please pick up your dictionary again and see what it says about TRIAL.

Yes, form public, but in UK, government funds are being spent in a careful and planed manner. There's also less corruption in UK. I am sure you know the degree of corruption in Msia.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:21 amWhat's your problem?
Gov is planning to run the trial, just that the date is not set.
Btw, i still oppose the trial, as many valid reasons stated my LKS.

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 13 2008, 09:21 AM

Isn't CANCELED or WITHDREW the same meaning in this context? In both case, the trial were not being carried out.

You want to split hair like Bill Clinton? Sorry lah, my england not that good as yours. To me, cancel or withdraw has the same meaning. Any other English teacher here?

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:24 amAFAIK, nobody else complained except doctors and DAP. So logic says they are the one causing the withdraw or cancellation (which one would like to pick, withdraw or cancel?)

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:25 amIf there are 4000 pharmacist in Klang Valley, yes, that is more than sufficient. Or can you give me the true figure for KV?

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:27 amMy problem is LKS never mentioned "improved safety" for patient. I am disappointed because of that.

Like LKS, you people think Malaysian patient do not deserve the better care available to developed countries. Typical 3rd world mentality.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:29 amSo you are saying, because there are corruption, we deserve to die due to inferior health system system on safety? You really black heart lah.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:38 AM

Did you read and understand the article thoroughly?

I skimmed through it and I think your reply is out of context. I don't think LKS said that dividing the dispensing right between doctor and pharmacist is a bad concept overall. It's just that Malaysia is not ready for it yet. See this portion:



This goes back to what Hypermax said about Malaysia not being ready. It's a question of timing. Seriously Optiplex330, I can sense your passion for this subject but I feel you aren't applying yourself to Malaysia's context. You keep bringing in the overseas scenario, you keep saying "life is cheap in Malaysia", etc... but you are not offering any constructive comments on how we can improve things. You just keep banging on the point that we should go ahead with a trial.

Ok, even for a trial is the timing right? Your main argument is that in Klang Valley you feel that there are sufficient pharmacists. We've seen some numbers, but again not specific to Klang Valley. Generally what is the ratio for doctors:pharmacists or even pharmacists per population that is considered sufficient?

What about the other issues raised about the lack of 24 hour pharmacies? Or lack of centralised health care system? Isn't that also relevant before we do a trial?

Let me make it VERY clear.

I am NOT ready to make dispensing right PERMANENT.

I just want to see what the trial result says. Until we have a trial, all we talked here are mere hot air without meaning and substance.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:46 AM

I'm sure you also realise that the tax in UK and many other developed countries is higher than in Malaysia. To that extent the people are paying for it.

He never mentioned it, yet you choose to interpret it as saying "life are cheaper than developed countries". You do have some issues with how to interpret what people said or didn't say.

We have universal health. USA do not. What is your opinion on this strange happening?

oh i see. no offense, just a heated discussion. hehe!

despite the lack of understanding in and underestimate of pharmacist roles by hypermax, i have to agree that msia is not ready yet. pilot project would be lovely to test the system, but in the end, i think msia might not seems as ready either.

it will also foot too much financial hassle to the public. and also lack of health awareness among the public could be the downfall as well. the reason why pharmacy works so well in other country is because general health knowledge among the public is way better than the typical msia, hence better use of the pharmacy besides GP, and also the pharmacist is as well respected as the doctor.

Then the question I would like to ask is, why he never mention safety but only money?

Sometimes, it is not what's said that is important but rather what is not being said. And all I hear is money. Of course, on what is not being said, your guess is as good as mind.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 09:50 AM

Yes, I understand you. So you obviously feel that we should go ahead with the trial even now, despite the fact that Malaysia might not even be ready for a trial. That's what I asked above, are we even ready for a trial?

Also, what is your basis for saying that we have sufficient pharmacists in Klang Valley? What is considered sufficient in your opinion? 1000? 2000? 3000?

May I ask how do you know we are not ready for the trial? If I have to choose between words of the Health Ministry and you, sorry, I think they are more qualified than you because they have better credential. Not unless you show me your credential to be better than theirs. This is just plain logic. When in doubt, pick the words of those who has better credential or expert. This is the same answer I gave to Hypermax.

I do not know what number of pharmacies is considered sufficient. And I believe part of the reason for the trial is to find out that answer. Without that trial, you guess on numbers is as good as mine and anyone else. On the other hand, may be we should ask Hypermax for the answer because he already know the number is insufficient. The unfortunate thing is, he refuses to give us the figure.

I don't know I'm not LKS so I'm not going to speak for him. But I do know of course LKS has his own bias (just like all of us have our own biases).

But I will disagree on your statement "why he never mention safety but only money?" and "And all I hear is money." I heard more than that - yes LKS did mention money, but he also mentioned: (i) unequal distribution of medical and pharmacy services, (ii) quality of medical personnel, (iii) problems with the medical system, etc.

Whether you agree or disagree with all the reasons LKS mentioned, the fact is he mentioned several reasons so why do you say "And all I hear is money." You must have selective hearing.

I don't know whether Klang has enough pharmacies or not. I do not have those data. I am sure the Health Ministry have them and will use that to come up with the idea of trial. But without that data, your guess is as good as mind. Expect Hypermax who claim he has the data but is not sharing with us here.

But I don't see LKS talking about those data so I presume number of pharmacies is not an reason for his objection. I can only see money being the issue from LKS.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:15 amOK. may be I am too harsh on LKS. I thought money is his top priority.

Let talk about the other issue you said he mentioned.
1. unequal distribution of service
We know there are insufficient pharmacy and unequal distribution in many part of the country. But the most highly developed part of Malaysia, Klang? I am not so sure LKS is right about Klang.

2. Quality of personnel.
I believe all these personnel are qualified and licensed doctor and pharmacist. So I am not sure what quality problem, if any, LKS is talking about.

3. medical system
Isn't this the purpose of this trial?


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 10:15 AM

Firstly, I'm not a healthcare professional. I'm participating in this discussion as a regular consumer who uses healthcare services. My interest is: will this system benefit me and how will it benefit me? Do the benefits come with any drawbacks?

In relation to the credentials of the Health Ministry, they may be better qualified than me but well let's just say that I'm wary about the motives or goals of the goverment in general. The various government ministries do things for their own purposes and not always for the public's best interests. Just because someone is an expert doesn't mean you blindly follow what they say right? Earlier someone said people nowadays don't treat the doctor as god. Even though doctors are supposed to be the expert in their field, patients nowadays are more educated and if they have doubts they also seek 2nd opinions.

So, going back to the proposed trial by the Health Ministry, do you know why they proposed it? They must have felt that perhaps a trial was in order, but for what reasons? This is what we must analyse to see if the counterarguments are valid.

If you don't know then why do you so strongly seem to believe it is sufficient? We don't really need a trial to find out the answer do we? Can't we get some estimate from overseas? That would be a benchmark to start with, e.g. find out the ratios of doctors:pharmacists or pharmacists per population for various countries or cities. Compare that to what we have and make some allowances to cater for Malaysian context. Can't we do that?

Maybe LKS doesn't have the data either But he did mention it as an issue.



Again, I hope we can get some data and compare to overseas because that would help the discussion here.



Have a read again of LKS's article. I do believe that nowadays the unis are churning out graduates by the thousands and quality is not what it used to be. Just look at our local unis, each year their ranking in the THES seems to be going down - this means the quality of the unis is going down and what does that say of the quality of the graduates they produce? The bar for qualified professionals isn't really that high either (and not just for healthcare field but in other fields as well) and I feel that there is a quality issue.



Again, read the article more closely. There are other issues with the medical system (and its administration) in Malaysia which makes the separation of dispensing rights problematic at this moment.

IMO, the pro and cons are plain to see.
1. Cons.
Higher cost (Patient has to pay doctor consultation cost. As for medicine itself, the cost may be lower because of greater choices).
Inconvenience (but free market force would relieve that to great degree for reason I mentioned before)


2. Pros.
Increase safety to patient.

So basically, we have to look at cost vs benefit ratio. As things stand, I don't know and neither would you what is that ratio. And I believe the Health Ministry also don't know for sure and that is why they propose a trial instead of permanent country wide implementation.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:48 amOn government conspiracy theory. As I said before, let's discuss as to what are the possible ulterior motives. So far, I could not think of any. Can you? If there is money to be made, it's does not go to the government so they have no motive. If gov did not give dispensing to only 1 pharmacy company, then there is also no motive there. The Health Minister is not a pharmacist so he has no motive there either. So please come up some ulterior motive to share with us.

While it's good that we question their motives, we must also object with reasons and not some self interest. And the main reason I heard are:
1. Not enough pharmacist. Again, HOW DO YOU KNOW there is insufficient? Your words vs HM? I take HM's.
2. Doctor can do the job. By general consensus now, pharmacist are the better person.
3. Cost. But without a proper cost vs benefit ratio study, we don't know, do we?

Since No.1 and 2 has been discarded, that only left with cost vs benefit ratio to work out and that calls for a trial.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 10:57 amYou are saying our doctors and pharmacists are not very qualified and of low standard. Assuming that is a valid reason, then this very reason for not giving dispensing right to pharmacist is also the very reason why we should withdraw diagnosis right from doctor. They are all sub standard professional so should not have exclusive rights. It's only logical.

Since we are not using this reason to withdraw doctor diagnosis rights, it should not be the reason not to do the trial also.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 11:05 AM

there are many other issues dragging on msian healthcare provisions, not least of which is basic access to, and equity of health care........in many rural areas people still have no access to doctors, the rural clinics are manned by ma (medical assistants, or the old name dressers) and nurses, and not a private clinic in sight for miles.......

yes, unfortunately, msian lifes are cheaper, msia is still very much a 3rd world country.......that is a fact........that is why cheap and accessible (in the sense of physical access) health care, NOT quality, is wanted.......if you can get cheap and cheerful, that's even better!

This post has been edited by limeuu: Dec 13 2008, 11:41 AM

This is the part I do not understand.

Not enough doctor. But doctor still given sole right to diagnosis.
Not enough pharmacist. This is the reason why pharmacist should not have right to dispense.

Both not enough. So why use "not enough" as reason not to give right to pharmacist? Or is this called double standard?


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 11:47 AM

just another comment.......it's quite pointless to do any trial........we all know in an ideal world, there WILL be separation of function.......it works, and it IS better.......

we just need to find a way to implement it without crashing the entire private healthcare system of msia.....

and that will be the day when we implement the national healthcare financing system, if it ever comes to reality......