You are contradicting yourself. One moment you say our system is lacking behind developed countries. The next you are demanding proof that developed countries are indeed better than ours. So please make up your mind. Are we as good as developed country, i.e. superb or are we lacking behind.

Here are your previous replies:
"Hey, you are the one who wants the system to change, therefore you should provide concrete and convincing evidence that such system is better than the existing one. We doctors have been dispensing medicine since way back.

You are the one saying such system is superior than our existing one, so should you provide some evidence to back up your claim?"

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Added on December 11, 2008, 10:44 pmThere is a significant difference between sufficient and large number. I had explained before.

In a nutshell, there are sufficient pharmacies in Klang Valley to do a trial.

Key word: TRIAL and ONLY KLANG VALLEY.

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Added on December 11, 2008, 10:50 pmI know some part of rural Malaysia has no doctor. So the question is, do we have enough doctor in Malaysia?

And if we do not have enough doctors in Malaysia, why should we only let doctor diagnosis and prescribe?

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 11 2008, 11:09 PM

to hypermax,

exactly what is said by optiplex. all what you have posted before were keep on doubting healthcare system in countries with dispensing right for pharmacy is no better than malaysia or even worst. that is what my post before was about, just that msia is not ready, doesnt mean pharmacist is not competent for dispensing purpose.

how safe is it to have medicines dispensed by a spm leaver in the so called dispensary section of a clinic. i doubt and i worry for my family that stay in msia.

SPM leaver vs pharmacist. It do not take a genius to answer that. Funny why this Hypermax couldn't answer that question. Instead he wanted proof that pharmacist is better than SPM leaver.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 12 2008, 08:32 AM

Just to add on & clarify some points here...

On the PILOT PROJECT....the places marked to start off this pilot project is not only confined to Klang Valley, up north, George Town is included, down south, JB is in, as well as another 2 places. However, the pullback here is there is no date being set at the moment on when to start this...but hope it will starts in 2009.

The always brought up reasons for not starting the dispensing separation will always be down to lack of pharmacists, especially on private side...which is quite true. But the situation should improved in few years to come with more pharmacist completing their government compulsory service, with the 1st batch coming out on 2009, starting April...

However, if you look deep enough into this whole thing...the main agenda of doctors going against dispensing separation is INCOME! Coz mostly clinics are selling medicines at the same time as giving consultation...and they do get cheap, even cheaper price compared to pharmacies...and they sell you 2x the price of pharmacy. By separating the dispensing right...it means one of their main source of income r deeply affected.

Therefore, besides looking into issue of legislation, manpower, mapping of clinics & pharmacies, another major issue that really needs to be solved is the monetary reimbursement for doctors & pharmacists. Once the income issue have been agreed upon, i suppose other things r much more easier to go.

I also do hope that we can move towards the dispensing separation stage much quicker...but there are still lots to be done. Hence, the pilot project is seen as a major stepping stone towards this.

Keep our finger crossed & stay united!

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Added on December 12, 2008, 10:28 pmIt is sometimes laughable to see both doctors claiming dispensing of medicines have been their so-called 'traditional rights' & pharmacist claiming they are better position to get the dispensing right.

Each one dig out the others dirt that throw it at another...which makes both looks like kids

We have to bear in mind why the issue of dispensing separation have been playing up for decades...did i mentioned decades?? YES DECADES!!
The dispensing separation is aimed to provide a better healthcare system to the public...not to doctors or pharmacists! Various...i should say numerous studies done at countries practising dispensing separation has shown that it really benefited the patients & also the helathcare system.

In fact, look at UK, they are even started to give prescriptions right to pharmacist for minor ailments. This is a recognition towards the role of pharmacist in healthcare setup.

Be mindful that the healthcare is not about individuals...it is a team...doctors can't work alone without the pharmacist & nurses...and vice versa. If you have professionals in drugs knowledge, why not use it to provide better healthcare service?

Its time for both doctors & pharmacists respect each others role in healthcare system, less selfish, and also stop being ignorant to the facts that dispensing separation may be the way for a better future. If not, why a lot countries out there are adopting it?

It is not about the doctors r better or pharmacist are better...it is about provide a better, more efficient & effective healthcare service to the PEOPLE!!

This post has been edited by kingkong81: Dec 12 2008, 10:28 PM

perhaps it is pertinent to note at this stage, that separation of function will inevitably increase the cost of a consultation........

that is fine in the context of nhs or medicare (uk, oz).........the consumer is not affected directly.......

i wonder how this will work out in msia, where private consultation (that's the issue here, it is NOT an issue in the public sector) is overwhelmingly paid for out of pocket......the consumer's pocket, that is.........

I said pharmacist is the better (note: better, not absolute) person to do dispensing for the benefit of patient. So you reckon this is kids stuff? Would appreciate you clarify further.

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Added on December 12, 2008, 11:22 pmThat is why I said separation of dispensing is primarily a 1st world benefit where per cepita income is higher. Which mean it will never work in Congo or Kampuchea. As to whether Malaysia is ready for that or not, I don't know. That is why I think a trial run is a good way to determine that.

But some people insisted that we should remain a 3rd world and no need to do a trial run at all.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 12 2008, 11:24 PM

Again, pls understand my post before replying.
I did not say our health care system is superior. In fact, it is in a very bad shape.

My statement :

The "system" mentioned here is the dispensing system, not the health care system as a whole. Seriously, are you having Wernicke's aphasia?

Then how do you know there's a sufficient number of pharmacists in the area? As one of the forummer mentioned, the main reason why such trial was rejected by the authority concerned is the lack of pharmacists.

Dun you think your statement is stupid?
Who else can diagnose and prescribe besides doctors?
As for dispensing, let me give you a list of people who can do the job:

1. Doctor (of course)
2. Nurses
3. SPM school leavers, as some of the forummers mentioned
4. Pharmacists
5. Medical student (2nd year onwards)
6. Many many more

So is it safe to say that pharmacists are replaceable to a certain extent in day to day clinical practice?

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 12 2008, 11:39 PM

I am glad that you have decided that our health system is in bad shape. May I ask how you propose to do about it? Learn or not learn from developed countries?

I have been saying such many posts back, just that someone here has thick skull and doesn't seem to understand my statement.

BTw, answer my question, who else can diagnose and prescribe besides doctor?

Health System is not an isolated thing like doctor alone. A health system comprises a whole set of other discipline of which delivery of medicine is one of them. Just like when you do System Based medicine. The heart is related to the kidney and the brain etc. You can't separate one from the other.

So there you have it. It may be hard for you to believe but dispensing is actually part of the health system.

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Added on December 12, 2008, 11:45 pmHas anyone here oppose that? I don't see it in this thread.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 12 2008, 11:45 PM

Did i ever doubt the health care systems in countries with dispensing right? I only have doubt in the compatibility of dispensing right with our health care system. Pls read my post properly.

Also, how many dispensers are actually SPM leavers? I have seen a fair share of dispensers in the private clinics being nurses and medical assistants.

There are some SPM leavers, but i am sure doctors concerned would have double checked with the medication to avoid mistakes. After all, who wants to get sued and lose income?

Aiyoh. That is why we have to do a trial run to find out whether there is sufficient pharmacies or not. Yet you oppose vigorously. I was under the impression that you already have the answer to that question so keeps saying there is no need for trial and gives all sort of excuse to prevent it from being done.

For the record: The authority WANTED to do a trial and DID NOT WANT to reject the trial. It is the DOCTOR AND DAP who rejected it.

Please lah. Let have an intelligent debate here and not try giving misinformation like 'authority reject trial'. No such thing.

Come on, dun start playing with words just because you have lost in the argument.

Yes, it is part of the system, but rather, it is a subsystem. Just like when doctors do physical examinations, we will focus on a particular system (subsystem), eg CNS, RS, CVS, GIT and etc, which is consistent with patients' symptoms.
Therefore, dispensing right is merely a component, or subsystem, and doesn't represent the health care system as a whole.

If you know the answer, why keep asking?

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 12 2008, 11:51 PM

The keyword here is "BETTER".
The better person to do dispensing of medicine would be:
1. Pharmacist
2. Doctor
3. Nurses
4. Med student 2nd yr
5. SPM leaver
6. monkey

The better person to do diagnosis and prescribing would be:
1. Doctor
2. Nurse or pharmacist. Not sure who is better here.
3. Med stud 2nd yr
4. SPM leaver
5. monkey.


For you to say a SPM leaver can have as much knowledge about medicine as a pharmacist really make me doubt your intelligent.

Aiyoh, we must find out whether there's enough pharmacists before begin the trial ma. Let's say if pharmacist memang not enough, then what's the point of having the trial? Confirm won't work why bother trying? Waste money you know? I was under the impression that you already know you lost the debate and failed to find enough evidence to back your claim.

Btw, let me tell you this, in bolehland, if gov wants to do something, no one can stop. So is gov really sincere in running the trial? I think you already know the answer.

Intelligent debate, ha, look who's talking. Who kept on bringing in bomoh, oracle, and asking silly questions like "if we do not have enough doctors in Malaysia, why should we only let doctor diagnosis and prescribe?"

So far, i enjoyed reading others' posts except for yours. I am beginning to get nausea just by reading your posts

No offense ya

Sorry my fren, I think u misunderstood me...wat i mean is when both pharmacists & doctors starts to point fingers at each others, talking bad about each others in public...it makes it look like kiddo fighting.

I do personally agreed that pharmacist can do better dispensing than others...that is on of d major part in the 4 years training.

I do prefer to let the professionals to do the part they are best in...pharmacist in pharmaceutical care, nurses in patient care, & doctors in diagnose & prescribe ()

This is purely arrogant...this is the kind of thing that we do not wish to see.
Doctors thinking they are the utmost important ppl & can't be replaced.

By comparing a SPM leavers being able to do a better dispensing job is nonsense. Then wat the heck pharmacists study drugs 4 yrs for?

Mind you...if u r talking purely dispensing, like...take 1 tab 3 times a day...bla bla bla...sure, SPM leavers can do that. Wat we are talking about in dispensing is including providing proper counseling & patient educations. I have seen doctors can't even do simple dispensing, not to mention wat drugs they suppose to give.

FIne..i respect that doctors are in better position to diagnose & prescribe...it is wat you all are trained for. But do respect others healthcare professional as well.

Do u think providing a proper treatment is juz by simple diagnose & prescribe? Then wat are the nurses for? Wat are the pharmacist for? We need everyone to run the whole system!

Remember, no one can work alone...it is a TEAM!

Show some respect my fren.

This post has been edited by kingkong81: Dec 13 2008, 12:05 AM

I am very glad you recognize dispensing is part of the system.

Here is another lesson for you. By tweaking the subsystem, you can affect the whole system. Dispensing is part of that logic.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 12:02 amSo how do you know there are insufficient pharmacies? You done a research survey already? Care to share your research survey result with us?

If you can't show us your proof result, then I must say you a oracle. No doubt about it.




This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 12:02 AM

well you did, from your very early post of talking about dispensing right given to pharmacist because of their advance level of human right in those developed countries. and your doubt of how safe and efficient a pharmacist can dispense compare to a doctor. you are more to generalizing pharmacist as whole rather than focused on to the pharmacist in msia or msia healthcare system.

you are sure? i am not to be honest from my observation. and i have seen plenty of dispensers in the dispensary of the clinic have none of any sort of qualification either.

All I ever said is, when it comes to dispensing, pharmacist is the better person. I have never say pharmacist is as good as doctor in diagnosis and that sort of stupid stuff.

So which part I said is considered finger pointing? Would appreciate you pointing it out.

If what I said is correct, then it can not be called finger pointing and talking bad.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 13 2008, 12:07 AM

Did i say SPM leavers can do a better job than pharmacists? I only mentioned "who can", not "who's better". READ READ READ PROPERLY LARRRRRR

Again, pls read properly before replying.
I acknowledged that pharmacists are in better position to dispense. I had mentioned numerous times in my posts.
I am just doubting the compatibility of such change with our current health care system. Most countries with dispensing right have a CENTRALIZED HEALTH CARE DELIVERY SYSTEM, unlike Msia.
Again, READ properly before replying.

Yeah, how do you expect the system to be better just by tweaking one subsystem, when all other subsystems are in trouble as well?

There are more important issues to be solved. Like health care personnel overworking. This issue has greater potential to kill patients.

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 13 2008, 12:10 AM