Personally, I know it will crash the system in your rural area. But it will NOT crash the system in developed Klang Valley.

So I believe selective zoning is one of the key to success of separation of prescribing and dispensing. So let's do a trial to see whether it crash in Klang or not. If not crash, keep it. If crash, withdraw (or should I say cancel) it.

that is why 'barefoot doctors' msian style, ie the ma's and nurses, are diagnosing and treating patients in many rural clinics.....so there is NO monopoly of doctors to diagnose.....

In another word, the term "Not enough" should be thrown out of the window because it's a non-excuse. Not sure doctor would agree with that, especially Hypermax.

well if you have a shortage of doctors, woulnt it make sense to take some pressure off them? i can tell you right now, pharmacist in m`sia is very underutilised (even with the shortage). why not use the 'extra' capacity to offload the pressure on doctors? dont that make sense? thats why i personally think a trial should be done and see how things goes.

This post has been edited by mr lappy: Dec 13 2008, 05:03 PM

makes no sense, as the shortage is in the rural and remote areas.......where no doctors, nor pharmacists wants to go.........and there is relative oversupply of doctors in the klang valley, especially in the private sector.....

This post has been edited by limeuu: Dec 13 2008, 06:47 PM

well, even when we are ready, doctor wont give it up that easy. with typical msian mentality, expect to see real hard time for pharmacist as well if the dispensing right is given to the pharmacist.

Hai..May i know that the pharmacy grad with degree which is not recognised by government can work in government sector or not?
As i know, the recognised degree of pharmacy only offered by UM, USM, UKM, IMU twinning and SIT twinning.. so what about the other pharmacy degree that offered by other uni such as AIMST, UCSI, etc.. The pharmacy grad from those uni are not allowed to work as pharmacist in government hospital?

those UCSI etc usually offer the certificate in foreign/twinning university. if that foreign uni is listed/recognised by the board, then you are allowed to practice as pharmacist in msia

http://www.pharmacy.gov.my/

go to board tab, under the left pane, click on the ' list of qualifications'

TS go to S'pore, they need you. there is a demand there.

I see that you are also confused with the meaning of withdraw and cancel. Well, you used "rejected" in your previous post, so isn't it the same as cancel and withdraw?
PLs stop playing with words and have a proper discussion lar.

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Added on December 13, 2008, 9:25 am

So you are trying to say that all the pharmacists in Msia are concentrated in KV only? WOw, nice logic you have.

Seriously larr, read the article properly and try to understand first. LEt me tell you this, know matter how emo you get, nothing will be changed. Too bad boy.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 12:04 amPls lar, educate your fellow pharmacist Mr Opti here. He doesn't have any insight to the current situation in Msia. Also, i believe most of his arguments now are not making any sense, more like spamming perhaps.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 12:09 amSadly, i dun agree. Bite me.

Let me ask you this, who else can diagnose other than doctors? So if doctors are not given diagnostic right, you wanna go see witch doctors or bomohs?

Kid, pls grow up.

YOu guys might say even when desirable doc: pharm ratio is reached, we doctors will not let go the dispensing right. Well, perhaps, but that's not a issue now, as we have extreme shortage of pharmacists.

Damn, arguing with Mr Opti here makes me feel stupid. Why bother wasting time with a fellow who argue just to save face? No constructive comments and what so ever. I am out of here. Good luck Opti. If it makes you feel better, alright, you win.

This post has been edited by hypermax: Dec 14 2008, 12:09 AM

I saw this practice first hand in Bangalore. Pharmacies are everywhere and they sell almost every kind of drugs available. Medical clinics on the other hand is less common compared to pharmacies.

Due to the separation of drug dispensing from medical clinics, clinics here are very simple, private doctors will usually have a very small clinic with a few tables and diagnostic equipments, suffice to say there isn't much in the clinic. They will state their name and qualifications on a small signboard outside their clinic.

They will only perform medical examinations, diagnosis and simple medical procedures in these small clinics but for the medications, they will write a prescription and they will ask the patient to go the nearby pharmacy to buy them.

The doctors will charge for their consultation service. (perhaps later I will upload an example of medical prescription given by Indian doctors here).

Your previous post: "Did i say canceled? I said WITHDREW. YOu are the one having eye problem."

While there can be differences, but in this context, what is the difference if the end results are both the same: the trial is not going ahead. I know you are smart england language teacher lah. Please don't try to show off here. This is not your classroom.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 7:09 amI am glad you notice the absurdity of that sentence. That was meant to caught your eye. Now that it has, please tell us how many pharmacies in Klang Valle? You said you know but not telling. It left me with no choice but to call you a liar because you know nothing either. Despite claiming otherwise.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 7:12 amTell me, in rural areas with no doctor, what should we do? Let the patient die so you can have your diagnosis right? What sort of a doctor are you?

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 14 2008, 07:28 AM

"Conspiracy theory" are your words. I don't think it amounts to a conspiracy, just simply that often our government's planning or implementation is lacking in transparency. Just because you cannot think of any possible ulterior motives doesn't mean there aren't any.



And I put it to you: how do you know there are sufficient? You already admitted you don't know. Secondly, did the HM put out a statement saying that there are sufficient pharmacists? I've not seen that mentioned anywhere in this thread.



No 1 and 2 are only discarded in your mind. To me they are still relevant and factors to be considered in calling for a trial.



In the end we are again going round and round since all the points you raised have been discussed earlier. No point in repeating them again, there is already too much repetition in your posts. There is no satisfactory conclusion to be had here. You have your own views and you're free to argue them until the cows come home.

Since you asked this question, so tell us in your opinion what should we do?

Hypermax should also chime in since this is a very real problem.

Simple. Whoever is the better person around, he/she should do the diagnosis.

If there are doctor around, then the doctor should do it. If there are no doctor around, then the bomoh can do it.

If there are pharmacist around, the pharmacist should dispense. If there are no pharmacist around, then the doctor can do it.

So the next question is, are there sufficient pharmacist in Klang Valley to do dispensing. Hypermax says it is not enough but he flatly refuses to back up his claim so I believe he probably lying. On the other hand, the Health Ministry obviously think there may be enough so wanted to do a trial. So who would you want to believer, the HM or someone who pluck his figure from thin air and hence, a possible liar?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 8:59 amIt was suggested that such ulterior motives exist by others. I am merely spelling it out so don't shot the messenger. Hypermax think every government action must be suspect but the reverse can also be true, i.e., some of the policy may be good. In this case, I fail to see what ulterior motives there could be.

On transparency. I don't think I hear people asking for the rationale behind HM's decision. If they ask, may be HM will give. But all I heard are automatic blasting by doctor and DAP. So why don't DAP go ask HM for details?

I believe we are all born with a brain and should use it or loss it. And there is no harm in trying to figure things ourselves which I think is a failure of our education system.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 9:04 amLike I said, has anyone asked HM for the figure? May be they have but nobody with substance (like DAP) wanted to ask. Let DAP ask for the figure first before blasting because doing so is unbecoming of an opposition figure.

On the actual figure. Hypermax keeps saying he know there are insufficient pharmacies. Why don't you go ask him for his figure?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 9:08 amOnly in my mind? You bad lah. How can you treat Hypermax as a non-person? Bad boy

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Added on December 14, 2008, 9:11 amObviously you have never heard of the saying "it takes 2 hands to clap".

When someone repeatedly say he knows there is insufficient pharmacies in the Klang Valley, I have to repeatedly ask him for the figure to back it up.

BTW, I am here for the fun. May I ask why are you here?

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 14 2008, 09:14 AM

Sorry, which figure did Hypermax pluck from the air? I know he quoted figures for pharmacists and doctors in Malaysia (though not in Klang Valley specifically). So far I've not seen any figures for Klang Valley only. Hypermax did give his opinion that he feels that pharmacists are insufficient. Your opinion is that it is sufficient. Neither of you have any hard numbers, so it's each person's opinion now.

Anyway, found this article from NST 29/3/08 (excerpt):



So what useful info can we get from the excerpt above?




I'm here to learn about this issue and see what people have to say. If you're here for the fun can we take you seriously?

Unofficially this is what happens. The best person around tries to do a diagnosis. Whether his diagnosis is right or not is debatable. It's also up to the patient to see if he is comfortable with the diagnosis or not. This kind of thing happens not only in rural areas but also in urban areas. Happens right here in LYN, see how many threads in the "Health & Fitness" section where people ask about this condition and that condition and forummers give all kinds of replies. But again all this is on unofficial basis and at patient's own risk.

But from an official standpoint, I don't think the government condones unlicensed professionals giving medical diagnosis. You'll never hear the HM officially saying "If there are no doctor around, then the bomoh can do it." From an official standpoint, doctors are presently allowed to dispense.

This post has been edited by jchong: Dec 14 2008, 09:57 AM

The proposed trial was in Klang Valley if I am not mistaken. So we should concentrate on Klang figure and country wide figure is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Think about it. If you were to do a trial, which area in Malaysia would you pick? If not the most developed Klang, where else?

Hypermax said Klang has insufficient pharmacies. So unless he can show us the figure, I will have no choice but to say he is talking through the wrong orifice.

BTW, let get the record straight. I said I do not know the figure for Klang. But I am basing my opinion that the HM very probably must have those figure before even contemplating doing a trial. Allow me to ask you a question, choosing between HM and Hypermax figure, which would want to take?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:01 amGood article but it does not shine any light on present discussion. If you read carefully, he said this system is not ready for implementation in the (whole) country.

So what that article says is nothing new. We ALL know the whole country is NOT ready for pharmacist dispensing long time ago.

In this tread discussion, we are talking about ONLY the Klang Valley and it is ONLY a TRIAL. Not IMPLEMENTING in whole country. A very significant differences.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:04 amAll work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Heard of that proverb? So let down your hair and lighten up. You should try it for your mental and health sake. And I am deadly serious about this friendly advise and NOT trying to be funny.

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Added on December 14, 2008, 10:14 amThis is exactly the reason why I am confused. If government can never condones the less qualified person to give medical diagnosis, then why are government condoning the less qualified person to do the dispensing?

There are lack of doctor in Malaysia but that will never be the excuse to allow bomoh to do diagnosis anywhere, let alone the big cities.
Going by the same logic, lack of pharmacist in whole of Malaysia should never be the excuse to allow less qualified person to do dispensing. Unfortunately people are still using that flawed logic to disallow dispensing by pharmacist even in the BIG CITIES!

What sorts of double standards are these?


Let's just look at the above logic. And not bring in "lack of pharmacist etc" here.




This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 14 2008, 10:14 AM

WOw, lol, i seriously think you have some mental issue after reading your post.
Oh well, good luck and have fun.
Just to remind you, no matter what who said and from which orifice your statements come out from, situation in msia won't change a bit.
Ok, i am seriously out of here. Good luck jchong. Btw, are you sure you want your meds to be dispensed by a pharmacist like him?

Ha. This really shows how ignorant you are. Typical frog in the well mentality and the sky is going to fall on your head in 2013 and you still don't realize it. I bet you don't even know what I am talking about. If all doctors in Malaysia are like you resistance to change, you will go extinct when 2013 comes. Ya, you don't want to change but changes is going to be involuntarily squashed onto your thick skull. And I will very much enjoy watching from the sideline and shout "I told you so"


Here is a hint for you, heard of ASEAN Free Trade Agreement?

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Added on December 14, 2008, 2:42 pmI sure would not want to be handled by a doctor who think he is a god and can make no mistake. Would you?

Never mind, come 2013 there will plenty of options to choose from

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Dec 14 2008, 02:42 PM