Wah...."stim"myx
Noted your comment bro, will test it again with other caps combination when free. Thanks.

About the TT you guys go ahead, will let you know if I able to make it

This post has been edited by ongbs: Oct 8 2008, 03:30 AM

Food for thoughts..

These are extracts from an interview with Hyodo San, the designer of Leben amplifiers.

Full article here.

"For example, when designing an amplifier, audiophile grade components don't always bring better sound. If I were to make an amplifier with nothing but premium audiophile components, there is no guarantee that the amp will sound good. It is more important to select components by listening so that as a whole, the amplifier plays music better. The most important thing is to achieve a total musical balance....."

Good thing is, this is what most of us is doing.. tune by the ears..

Have a nice day folks...

it's all about likelihood here. Gear head won't always get the quality they wanted simply because they only 'whoreship' gear. But the chances are their system SHOULD be better

Chances of you trying to beat that system by getting stuff from Jln Pasar is pretty hard. Althought I won't say it's impossible. The component cannot be crappy, it needs to be at least performing up to a certain level. Someone used to tell me this, double the price, half the difference.

RM 10k system vs RM 20k (double the price) quality wise 50% improvement.

RM 20k vs RM40k, quality wise 25% difference

RM 40k vs RM 80K, quality wise 12.5% difference

RM 80k vs RM160, quality wise ~6% difference

RM 160K vs RM320k, quality wise ~3% difference

I would conclude after Rm100K, u r hearing very very little difference althought u pay a premium for it.

---

Added on October 8, 2008, 3:19 pm1 more reason u miss out, GROUND !!! i can't forget how properly grounded circuit save my day. 1 of the cap was not ground properly in my previous system, i check high and low for it.

This post has been edited by Vincent Pang: Oct 8 2008, 04:02 PM

Vincent Pang, your point is?

yes. i missed out the ground. thanks.

This post has been edited by ekool: Oct 8 2008, 03:31 PM

Jazzy,
I believe what Vincent is preaching in a nutshell is "quality of parts need not be of boutique grade but on the other hand, they must not be too crappy too".

And summing up his analysis using figures - Law of Diminishing Return / "Hukum Kepuasan Menurun"

Y.C.,
So it seems

Modifications wise, be it an amplifier or even a car for that matter, there are limits to modifications even if 'money is no limit' scenario..
If you got the money might as well buy the ready made absolutely better stuffs!

Just a thought....if you extrapolate that Law the other way, you will get:-

RM5K vs RM10K, > 100% improvement
RM2.5K vs RM5K > 200% change
RM1.25K vs RM2.5K > 400% change
RM625 vs RM1.25K >800% change
RM312.5 vs RM625 >1600% change
RM156.25 vs RM312.5 > 3200% change
RM78.13 vs RM156.25 > 6400% change
do your own Maths from here....my fingers are tiring fast.

In other words, start as cheap as possible, and then double your upgrade budget for maximum improvement.

Allow me to comment.
Cheap audiophile parts is one matter, but using the RIGHT part in the right location is VERY IMPORTANT. For example, its not recommended to use a cap thats for speaker crossover in input signal path although same value or a huge 2.2uf polyprop cap frequently for tube amp but in the solid state T-amp. Some types have better results in DC coupling than in signal path, thus arising the bi-polar types being most suitable for signal path. A 10uF /10VDC cap and 10uF/50VDC cap of the same brand and series will have difference in sound as there's difference in the capacitor foils. There you have it.. Ok..over to you all!. Its not all a matter of swap swap, try try, play play and listen if it works out. There's ALWAYS a technical reason of manufacturer's choice in their layout.
Go play play with them all..good luck and have fun!

This post has been edited by bsl555: Oct 8 2008, 05:06 PM

Jazzy,
I could not concur any lesser with your above statement.

I am a miser and have always been one since a long time ago but never a cheapskate (I do not believe in squeezing others just to enjoy low prices). Almost my entire hifi gears were bought during clearance sale of non-current models, present car included, hehe…

I have computed the total costs to be spent for my 3 units of T-amps – first unit RM256, second RM274 and third (for standby) at RM55. I just could not resist going for a T-amp with full discreet components since I am already almost there.

Justblair’s comment of me at digg site is "Y.C. has been swallowed by the modification bug!!! T-amp Modded … he is the perfect example of an Enthusiast who has been rapidly inducted into the DIY electronics hobby. His conversion was swift, unexpected and now he is a modder. If you are interested in electronics, Y.C.'s conversion may bring back happy memories of your first steps into the hobby...."


March,
Unfortunately, the Law of Increasing Return never existed in any field which we could think of.


Bsl,
Your words are spot on.

I for one do not have such expertise and have often relied on 'copycat' method using what I regard as decent but non-exotic parts. There are reasons for SMDs to be on the T-amp board, however for ours, we suspect the grades used could be very inferior and some do not even conform to specs given.




This post has been edited by Y.C.: Oct 8 2008, 05:45 PM

Exactly, I was trying to point out that that `Law', just like any other, has to be qualified according to premise. I'm curious why Vincent chose to start at RM10K. Is it his opinion that anything less than RM10K is not worth starting from?

Because if I choose to start at say, RM1K, then the Law would turn out this way....
RM1K vs RM2K...50% improvement.
RM2K vs RM4K...25% change,
RM4K vs RM8K..12.5% change,
RM8K vs RM16K..6.25% change,
RM16K vs RM32K..3.13% change,

And that is using the same Law of Diminishing Returns, isn't it?

Now if you look at that reasoning, you shouldn't be spending more than RM10K on a system because you won't be hearing much difference above that. This is based on Vincent's cutoff point at around 6% in his example. Now, think if one started the Law at RM100K......

When I see you guys trying and testing various combinations of components with the TA2024....I see ppl having lots of fun and outright enjoyment. Sometimes we reinvent the wheel, but if one gets a thrill out of it, then doesn't that add to the value? I'm afraid I'm too much of a moron and a coward to join in and attempt something with my precious T-amps, but I don't doubt that the journey to improvement (via a bit of de-provements) is a reward in itself. And when the honoured sifus jump in with their advice about why this and why not that, it gets even better!

I think how much u spend has nothing to do with what u like, i have auditioned many rig during the AV show and during visits to hifi shops...and not all can produce the sound i like...
Thing is the sound im looking for might not require RM20k, i mean what s the point of spending on the best if it dosent fulfill the basic requirement which is the sound u like...as far as i know, its not the price of the component, its the material and values that make the difference...
I think the calculation given by vincent has nothing to do with satisfaction, upgrade is improving and as one get closer to the perfect sound which suit one self the improvement seem minimal as the rig is getting better and better..as u cut corners on a square it will become a circle..
But if a RM10k rig already satisfy ones every listening desire even a RM100 rig would suffice..or even a T-amp or even a DIY cable...

This post has been edited by metalmania: Oct 8 2008, 07:24 PM

March,
Now I see your point clearly. You have actually moved backwards Vincent’s starting point to before the RM10K mark!

Why start at RM10K? I can’t answer on Vincent’s behalf, but could only deduce that it is perhaps just a figure for illustration purpose. It could very well be RM1K as you have put it and only Vincent could confirm so.

If I had not remembered wrongly, the Law of Diminishing Return is not always linear, hence no qualification is necessary. Also, the diminishing return on jump to the next bracket of RM spent is not exactly half of the present return. In fact, I believe we could not even quantify the return in the first place!

Our T-amp boards cost RM55 each and even cheaper at €5 in Europe, again if I am not mistaken. We believe as a result of its extreme low price, the quality of parts thereon (both the discreet components and SMDs) are greatly compromised, hence our re-invention of wheel! Yes, we do have our share of fun and not forgetting Xtorm’s despair of having his midrange drivers burnt when he tried to dispense away with input caps on his T-amp board. I believe your T-amps (TA2022) are already well-made using parts of decent grade, hence there is no necessity to attempt anything on them. Remember the adage of “if it ain’t broke, why fix it?”
If you want to share our fun, just buy a RM55 board to try some soldering work. On?


Metalmania,
It appears that most of the time, you would not be totally happy with sound you are getting from off-the-shelf equipment regardless of their selling price.

And you do believe that you could build equipment from ground up at a much lower price than having to pay for those off-the-shelf equipment. And as such, you would prefer to DIY, right?

Y.C i'm at the point of DIY-ing my own LP's..hahaaaa i will name the product Y.C

Metalmania,
Ya kah?

I shall be very honoured to have a LP named after me.

On second thought, would it be able to produce music?

bro march,
interesting maths there!

anyway, I do agree with your last statement.
With the T-Amp which starts at RM55, my MAX budget for 'upgrade' would be RM55, RM60 tops. Any higher I will no longer consider it to be the 'best bang per buck' amp. Might as well go for higher T-Amp model, right?

The other factor during the 'upgrade' exercise is the 'learning experience'... these are the intangible gain that you'll get that no money can buy..
NOT to mention the TOTAL satisfaction achieved...
It doesn't matter how good the specifications is on paper, how excellent is the review and what other users said/praised about it. It is our own experience that matters! If you have a golden ear that can differentiate all the sonic differences, then all is well and good! If not, why bother?
To me these are just a guideline to decide in which direction I need to take... In the end of the day, say what you want, if my ears say otherwise, I'll stick to what I hear! eg. the F-ELNA caps that I and some of us used or ekool's 22.2uF input caps

I also agree to what metalmania said. The cost has got nothing to do with what we like although some people simply like 'expensive' things
Expensive does equate with quality products, no doubt but not necessarily the sound that we wanted/liked.

A story.
I had a friend who got started in HiFi kinda late but within a short time starts to buy and sell things(ugrading) in the quest for the 'right and balanced' sound that suits his taste. Finally he did achieved what he wanted but still looking for a 'perfect' sound.At this juncture I cautioned him,there is no such thing as 'perfect sound' and IF he were to change any part of his system, it might 'upset' or lose the system balance and MAY required total system 'change'. Sure enough, one (expensive)link was 'upgraded' and the whole system sounded 'wrong'. In the end, he gave up and sold off almost all his hardware...

Lesson learned? Individually, each system components may be good, heck may even be excellent, but when working together, they may not be sonically compatible or synergized to each other strenghts.. hence the importance of getting things 'balanced'...as I earlier quoted..

Again HiFi/audio isn't an exact science.. you draw the line/limit in what you're doing..

my 2 sens

well guys, i am still playing with stock T-amp. it's abit surprise i didnt mod anything so far, unlike the normal self.

to be frank, i dont know what to mod so far, maybe i deserve abit more solid bass. but that might be due to the limit of my speakers also. anyone got idea?

err....Negara Ku...

wui223,
actually in stock form the T-Amp is one great performer! Yes. the bass as we all know is kinda lacking.
Start with the input caps change. that would be the minimum I'd recommend if you do not want to mod anything at all.
What speakers are you using? Of course speakers are the final limitation..

In fact, as far as I can see from my text books, most `laws' in nature are non linear, exponential ones are more common and some are downright chaotic!

Oh, thanks for another vote of confidence that my T-amps do not really need any modding. However, I think if bsl555 were allowed lay his hands on them it'll be a different story....anyways, he has given me his opinion of them after our weekend `shootout' against the NAD. It'll remain a secret unless he chooses to reveal it to you folks himself.

Okay, the depth of my DIY efforts....just in case you folks think I'm a total nincompoop with the soldering iron....a Y.C. cap now drives my Mitchell turntable PSU! (psst...bsl helped me find it, the capacitor I mean, not the turntable, at Jalan Pasar, together with a spanking new Hakko soldering gun, but honestly, I did the soldering all by meself.)

This post has been edited by March05: Oct 8 2008, 09:21 PM


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