ok, lets get back to the "main thrust" for interests sake ...

high current in an amp is like a good engine in a car:
What makes a car "good" ? Certainly not the engine alone ... but if u got a crap engine to start with, very unlikely the car can be considered overall "good". This is what the "main thrust" is all about eh ?

And back to Ongaku ... its pure overpriced hype and just too overrated (no thanks to the reviewers). Ongaku, Kagu-On, etc etc...
Or if one already has the lear jet, the mansion on the hill with italian hot wheels, and still too much spare change... forget about the Ongaku, go ahead and splurge on an "FM Acoustics" instead.
(ok, i'm digressing here again, but u get the idea...)

Another analogy coming up ... "tubes for amps" is like "carburetors for cars"....
I'd rather choose the sequential multipoint fuel injection system with closed-loop wideband lambda system anytime.

Its time to move on with the tech curve instead of being caught in a time-capsule.

I always enjoy the music ... but i also enjoy the arguments too



BTW, Ah-Rock is now a "Behringer" guy ...

Ah, this is most true... Jedem das Seine


Specs and performance are measurable and quantifiable.

Acoustics and sound is subjective.

Some person's "arbitrary numerical rating" on whats good or better and then some other people using it for an argument, .... well, u get the idea.

who's quarreling ? We're "exchanging ideas".

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Added on October 20, 2008, 11:22 pmwhich generation r u referring to.. ? The Concertos i got ain't even close to the Concertos of today.


This post has been edited by mugenfoo: Oct 20 2008, 11:22 PM

ich dun think you understand the relationship between wattage power delivery and speaker impedance...

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Added on November 1, 2008, 11:42 pmANYWAYs..... Back to Sonus Fabers....

Nice wooden finished speakers... Can almost get away for being mistaken as some artsy fartsy piece of decor. Chicks dig it.

ViFa drivers.

Works best with matching stands.


This post has been edited by mugenfoo: Nov 1 2008, 11:42 PM

i don't use my Concertos for hi-fi anymore .. so can't really describe how they are placed except that i used to have them more than 4 ft from rear wall coz i like the depth and soundstaging (at the expense of bottom bass) setup.

Listening position is an isosceles to almost equilateral triangle setup.
I like extreme toe-ins until i can see the outer sidewall cabinet. Gives good focus especially if the room is not symmetrical or has alot of clutter like desks and other odd furniture.

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Added on November 6, 2008, 1:18 amcan lookup the terms for room acoustics:

there is the common "RT60" spec, which is the reverbtime taken to decay to -60dB from the initial impulse.

Some room responses may follow the Sabine, Erying (dunno how its spelt) or Kutruff specs for "Acceptable" room reverb times across a the audible frequency band.


Echo slaps ( when you hear your handclap going piak-piak-piak-piak.... like a machine gun aka stinging sound) .. thats bad. Need acoustic treatment to remove these. The handclap test should have just one Piiiaakkk with decent decay (RT60) .


sometimes, not to overdamp the room and maintain some ambiance... a good solution is to look into sound diffusers. These passive treatments are best bang for buck. When used correctly, makes the room sound very open, improve bass "bloom" (not boom) and helps vocal audibility.


This post has been edited by mugenfoo: Nov 6 2008, 01:18 AM

this is better. Built your listening room, model your loudspeakers and perform acoustic calculations, simulate speaker and listening positioning.

http://www.cara.de


Make sure u got at least a Pentium-4 to do those simulations or it will take forever (also depends how complex u build your models).



This post has been edited by mugenfoo: Nov 6 2008, 10:57 PM

SFs are very good when paired with aggresive amps (thats why SF & Krell are so kawan kawan).



SF driven by "lazy" amps ... sure will sound overly laidback and boring. Unless you like laidback & boring sound

SFs are not the most tonally accurate speakers, but their build philosophy that their speakers are crafted as "musical instruments" , is in giving u a very musical and involving sound (as opposed to an overly-clinical speaker like some studio monitors).

actually all this "warming up" is just for the electronic components to reach their operating temperatures.

Capacitors, resistors, transistors, & IC chips will have slightly different ELECTRICAL characteristics at different temperatures.

So the warming up is just for the while amp or CD player or DAC or whatever to reach their "stablised" operating temperature, then you get a
"stable" sonic character.

Same goes for the speaker woofers since they are mechanical movement ... once broken in, they will sound optimum just as the way the manufacturer intended them to be.

There is no voodoo or black magic about warming up broken-in that will make the sound miraculously superior or anything.
You really need at least a decent resolution hi-fi system to really tell the difference between "cold start" sound vs "fully warmed up" sound.

Don't forget, human hearing also changes over a period of constant listening .. You go to a rock concert, the first 1/2 hour is really loud but after a while your ears naturally tighten up & become less sensitive. Then after the concert is over, while driving home your Proton/Honda/Toyota but the car engine will sound very quiet like a Mercedes or Lexus .... Then the next morning when you drive out for dim sum breakfast , the engine sound like a Proton/honda/toyota again with its usual noise levels.

better amp is always more welcomed. OF COURSE, still need to work within a budget right ?



Warm up applies to all equipment cheap or expensive. But in really really really reallyreally cheap and nasty stuff like < RM150 PC-speaker sets, you probably wont hear the difference coz the sound quality is just too lousy to begin with.



If u got a entry to mid type Sonus bookshelves, decent amps like Nad / Cambridge Audio also can.
If u got bigger Sonuses, then will need amps with more Ommmph.

But bear in mind, even the old-school smaller Sonuses like the Electa / Electa-Amator can be quite power hungry and will need mid range amps to drive.

I had Concertos (1st gen type) driven by an Exposure amp and a Krell amp. The sound difference is really very very contrasting.

bro, if u get a chance .... do try the Concertino Domus paired with something slightly better than the Nad 3020A, mebbe a modern day Exposure integrated amp or similar (those silver colour ones) ... you might be pleasantly surprised .... Opens up a whole new dimension to your speakers. (yes yes , trying to "racun" you also).

hahahahahahaha !

of course besides those with awful slew-rates as well.

wah ... very deep ...

i much prefer the Wendy's tagline: "Where's the beef? "

room treatments .....

Ikea has alot of good stuff for sonic diffusion, if you have an inkling of what to look for.

I use an assortment of roomtunes, basstraps, those locally made copycat RPG Skyline diffusors, and Ikea stuff like bamboo blinds, curtains and rugs/carpets.

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Added on May 29, 2009, 1:01 amIkea

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Added on May 29, 2009, 1:05 amyup... to cut out the 1st order reflection. Crucial for tweeters since their high frequencies tend to reflect like laser beams . So a diffusor at those strategic locations will scatter the 1st reflection order from interfering the direct tweeter sounds to your ears.


Do it, not only for the side walls, but also the floor and ceilings too .. if you're really anal about 1st order reflections.





This post has been edited by mugenfoo: May 29 2009, 01:05 AM

Carpet on floor is very good.


Here's a school of thought ... try not to put anything too absorby (yeah i just made this word up) behind the speakers (aka front wall). But put foams and stuff at the back wall instead. The whole idea is that let the speaker pairs excite the front portion of the room to present a big and generous sound-stage towards you. Best speaker placement is when u get superb focus, and the "disappearance" of the speakers' individual presence (this one really really really hard to do). Then all u get is the depth and height and overall soundstage effect.


Yeah i got triangluar pillows (CornerTunes™ ) at the ceiling corners but i doubt if they do anything to absorb much bass. Its more for stereo imaging enhancement only.

If you have bass boom problems, the most effective "acoustic tuning" device would be to place a BIG FAT LONG COUCH behind your listening position. Guaranteed to work wonders. The more foam and padded the couch is, the more bass absorbing effectiveness it is. Then having tube-traps at the rear corners also helps to cut out more peaky booms. But too much of these bass traps can also create a suckout effect in the mid to upper bass regions. So use them sparingly. Bigger tube traps isn't always the best.

For ceiling treatment, try placing those styrofoam diffusors (RPG Skylines). This will make the room seem larger than its physical dimensions without overdamping the sound too much. Same goes for the sidewalls.

Hifi listening rooms should not be dead-sounding unlike recording studios. A well-tuned live-sounding listening room is an absolute joy to listen to. And this has the biggest effect on your hi-fi system , even more than the hardware themselves.

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Added on May 30, 2009, 11:13 am... and the right material for treatment as well.

For example, to control bass, you need stuff like heavily padded boxes (Helmholtz resonators) like the RealTrap & BassTube type of stuff.
Different sized traps work more effectively for certain bass frequencies.
Foam pillows won't do much to control bass.

But Foams are superb at cutting down echoes, reflections and mid-to-high freq comb effects and overly excited or long reverb times.


The best way to go about room tuning would be a combo of absorption and diffusion.


Anyone here using Chicken-egg cartons in their listening rooms?

This post has been edited by mugenfoo: May 30 2009, 03:09 PM

ok .. to be honest, i'd have to listen to your room to really hear and see what might work and what doesn't
But since we are all self-professed gurus in the forums et al, i might as well try and derive some fun out of it as well.

First of all, what seems to be your room's sonic problem ? too much bass? too little bass? too bright ? too dull? Can't seem to get stereo imaging in focus ? Compressed soundstage ?


If u wanna try out the CornerTunes™ , do check out http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com
The site is kinda old .. and i'm not sure if that guy's still in business, but you'd get some ideas from there. You might be abl to find some s/hand stuff of these at hi-fi forums or similar.

Ohhhh.... i see... u got an almost square room huh ..... ok ok ... lets see now.

OK, 1st things 1st .... i assume that your listening axis is along the length of the room.

Speaker placement .... make sure they are at least 3 ft. from any walls. Your listening sweet spot should about close to the centre of the room.

The reason that I recommend u start with this placement is:
1) the "near field"-style placement would be best to minimize the square room's colouration on your system
2) U got ample space the treat the room walls (and ceiling as well, if the height is also close to 11~12ft.)

The bass from AN&LR-CloseYourEyes are pretty much upper-mid bass only. Not much low freqs below50Hz. And i would suspect that speaker to sidewall placement would be key in solving it. Following the above "near-field" placement method, try to also angle-in your speakers until you can see the speakers' outer side-cabinet from your listening position. This would also help improve your focus alot and also reduce boominess as the speakers' woofers would be exciting the room at extreme angles. This usually means very extreme toe-in angles of more than 30degrees. Looks weird. But might sound very good in your case.

As for treatments.... lots and lots of padding at the side and rear walls. Would suggest that you treat about 2/3 of your sidewalls with a combo of diffusors and absorbers. Leave the 1/3 of the sidewall space clean ... and this 1/3 section should be at the speaker-end. At about middle of the side walls, go with diffusors ... (like RPG Skyline Styrofoam, or even hanging some Ikea bamboo or wood blinds are good). Then as you progress towards the rear end (closer towards backwall) of the sidewall, more absorby stuff. Plant some basstubes or rolled foam tubes at the rear corners. They would work as bass cavity traps to reduce bass boom caused by acoustic corner loading.

Directly behind your listening position, try having 2 large bean bags (and i mean BIG!) to the left and right. You can move the bean bags closer or further apart and see how the bass and even overall soundstage changes. You can also move them further back away, and this might help to tame some troublesome bass-booms too.

Backwall: hang some thick drapes or maybe even chicken-egg cartons / or similar, (floor to ceiling) would be good. Basically you wanna make your backwall seem further away acoustically. Cubpoards, bookshelves (with lots of books), cabinets (no glass panels) , etc etc at the backwall would be good.

happy furniture-moving & room-tuning.


This post has been edited by mugenfoo: May 31 2009, 12:42 PM

Good, your boom is reduced.

If your speakers are about 6 ft apart.. thats good. Near field means you should sit closer than 8 ft from your speakers.. Maybe try 7 or even 6.5ft. Maintain the extreme toe-in.

Since your room is almost square, don't bother too much to make the speakers "disappear". You'll need an entirely new room for that, or extreme room treatments that will make your room look like a confinement cell in Tg. Rambutan "Hospital Bahagia".

Moving your listening sweet spot away from the backwall will also help reduce the bass exaggeration. Since bass notes are strongest when u sit closer to the wall especially the backwall.

Ceiling corners are a pain. Unless u are so hardcore to hang some basstubes aka BassTraps™ or RealTraps™ panels there .... I'd say don't bother. Just treating the floor corners will suffice already. The RoomTune CornerTunes™ are not meant to fix bass problems but more for spatial control only.


Here's another trip u can try. Angle your speakers up abit . Give them a 1 to 3 degree toe-up. Might be good, or not. I dunno. But it's free to experiment and part of the fun of getting your system to sing. U can also vary your sitting/listening position too. You might notice that the perceived bass booms change as you sit higher or lower from the floor.

Experiment, experiment & experiment... and have fun too.

Good luck !



p.s. By this experience, we all can see how good speaker placement can bring the biggest effect to a hi-fi system. Even more than a RM20,000 speaker cable or interconnect can ever hope to achieve.

I've tried using the Cardas ratios ... it didn't work for me .
Soundstage was really crap when i follow the Cardas rules.


But no harm trying....