It depends...
IMHO:
IF you're looking at holistic and total costs for the long term (10 yrs and more), say EPF a/c1 funded investments, there is no 1 fund house in FSM that has both "slightly above average" equity funds AND bond funds. FSM has good equity funds & bond funds but IMHO, not within 1 fund house, thus cant do INTRA switching.
Thus, SWITCHING between INTER fund houses in FSM costs about 1% to 2%? Please correct me if i'm mistaken (i actually hope i am, thus i've got another avenue for investments)

VS

Public Mutual's funds which have "slightly above average" equity funds AND bond funds, which one can switch to/fro for Asset Re-allocation (Tactical or Strategical) / Profit taking / etc.
Mind U, moving $50K, $100K, $200K, etc. several times within 10+ to 20+ years at $0 VS 1% to 2% makes a difference.

Thus, FSM just MAY not be "cheapest" in the long run in this perspective.

BTW, i'm assUme-ing investments via EPF lar, where most working stiff has the $ and doesnt affect "real" cash flow until retirement.
Thus, PM's cost is 3% (if one's one best customer-agent, cost is approximately 1.7%) for equity funds, not 5.5%

Just a thought and hope to be corrected, especially the cost of INTER switching costs for FSM

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Jan 27 2012, 09:49 AM

Effectively and approximately, yes.

Technically, for EPF investments, still paying 3%.
Out of that 3%, 1.75% (or was it 1.7%, i forget the small numbers) goes to Agent.
Thus: 3% -1.75% +income tax(commission 1.75% *26% my personal tax rate)

For agents' cash investments there are 2 options:
via cold hard Cash: 5.5% - 2.75% +(2.75% *26%)
via Commissions Direct Debit Instruction: at NAV cost! but commissions MUST be able to fund those DDIs

IF U are personally investing RM10K of yr EPF per annum or MORE
+ U can get another $20K+ of "sales" from your family members' EPF/cash
THEN it makes sense to be your own agent + sustainable in meeting PM's quota per annum

I've done the calc (havent U noticed i'm nuts with calculations? literally cost/benefit analysis + calculated risks) and it makes sense, ESPECIALLY when one gets detailed data for further analysis to enhance one's + family's investments.

Er.. your mileage may vary greatly - especially if you're not the active/hungry investor/knowledge type yar

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Jan 27 2012, 06:08 PM

If yr agent dont want to share share calculations, ideas, etc., U can always pm me

BTW, dont get me wrong yar - i'm not into recruiting or sales, i'm saying if your agent isnt an investor at heart (risk mgt + stats & probabilities), we can still bounce ideas off each other here or teh tarik sessions.

FYI - my flexi's BLR -2.2%, thus effectively it's 4.4%pa now.

I wouldnt suggest DUMPING most of yr $$ into any bond funds - best to have it spread, eg. 50% at most into bond funds (not specifically AmDynamic Bond) and the other in yr flexi home loan a/c.

Heck, if you're an equity investor (normal stocks, equity funds, REIT stocks, properties, etc), U may not even want to dump in 50% as your $ in yr flexi mortgage is "available any time" for U to buy into opportunities WHILE nearly making as much a bond fund (nearly heheh - say 5% to 6% pa on average). By "not placing" the $ in a bond fund, U dont have to worry about the entry or exit cost from the bond fund when U want to go on an equity buying spree.

Personally, i've only moved a small amount of $ from my flexi mortgage into a bond fund - at most, less than 1/3, and then only because i've accumulated more than what i plan to use for equity purchases within a year. Pls note that i'm an "asset allocator" and "DY% or value lelong buyer" at heart, thus keeping enough cash around for opportunities & re-balancing is needed - your mileage may vary greatly if you're more focused on Fixed Income.

Just a thought

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Jan 30 2012, 07:59 PM

No seafood here yar, just a worker ant chugging along & sharing hopefully something useful
DY% = Dividend Yield %, a measure of returns for stocks/REITs and any dividend paying investments
eg.
1. If U bought a REIT stock for $1 per unit and it gave U $0.10 net dividend at the end of the year, U can say your REIT stock's net DY% = 10%
2. If U bought the same REIT stock later in the year before dividend ex, say $2 per unit, and got the $0.10 net dividend for your 2nd REIT transaction, U can say yr 2nd transaction net DY% = 5%

---------
On your Q on compounding, i think a visual will help explain here

Based on the visual above:
1. Assuming your $10K grows 100% to $20K, yes you will profit $10K but look at the per annum growth zig zagging
2. Assuming your $10K grows 10%pa compounded, U will notice it's $26K (rounded up), not $27K. Well, assuming it's $27K, $17K is your profits

The Qs U posted is a bit... weird. It doesnt ask a cohesive Q and I think none of the answers above helps..
Pardon me if i'm mistaken, are U trying to figure out HOW TO CALCULATE your CAGR?
either for each of your entries/transaction and/or TOTAL for all entries/transaction for a fund?
heheh - the best As in the world cant help if the Qs arent on target - thus my clarification request

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Jan 30 2012, 09:58 PM

Mr Wong's my dad , i'm just wongmunkeong and i'm in IT, thus not Finance ppl too .
Ok, back to "work".

The concept of CAGR is in simple effect, your returns on your capital + returns on returns, which i think U've nailed down. It's just the bleeding maths thinggy right? i'm no maths genius (Credit3 only for SPM ) but logic is my game, thus, in Excel, for lump sum:
1. IF U know the %pa compounded (CAGR) and years compounded
U calculate forwards for $10K and grow it by 11.6%pa compounded, it'll be $29,966.90879,
eg. $10,000 * (1 +11.6%)^10yrs
Note: The karat symbol, "^", is math's "BY POWER OF" (pls correct my math's English if i'm mistaken)
Thus, yes, you're right IF past history is repeated perfectly for your purchase and sell timing
I'm just assUme-ing that U are estimating your future returns?
If so, please be aware that U should always look at "bad ending", "good ending" & so-so ending scenarios for your time horizon, to get a holistic probable view (IMHO lar).
eg
for 10 years' bad ending = 1999 Jan to 2008 Dec
for 10 years' good ending = 1998 Dec to 2007 Jan
for 10 years' so-so ending = 2001 Jan to 2011 Dec

2. IF U know the total value at end of 10yrs and want to find out the %pa compounded (CAGR)
CAGR %pa = (Current Value / Cost)^(1/years) -1
Where:
Current Value = units * NAV (ie. redemption value / sell back value)
Cost = total cost for that transaction or purchase

Using your example, Kid Save Fund:
Current Value = $29,966.90879
Cost = $10,000
Years = 10
Thus, CAGR = ($29,966.90879/$10,000) ^(1/10) -1
=2.996691 ^0.1 -1
=1.116 -1
= 11.6% pa compounded (CAGR)

Cool or ?
For multiple entries/buys (like DCA or VCA) in a fund, calculating your overall CAGR is even more (unless U use Excel's XIRR function to have a close approximate) but calculating each entry's CAGR is the same as the above (2).

Hope the above helps more than confuse

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Jan 30 2012, 11:28 PM

U may not like dividends yearly by an equity fund.
Reason: When mutual funds distributes dividends, its NAV drops exactly the amount distributed AND to add insult to injury, the distributed $ gets taxed sometimes. Thus, waffor? Sandiwara only

Bought (past tense) and looking to be a bit more overweight than normally planned Asset Allocation

Just to share:
1. Bank of England pumps another £50bn into UK economy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/fe...titative-easing

2. Bank of Japan surprises with new easing; yen falls
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bank-of-j...alls-2012-02-13

3. ?? other EU nations go on the QE bandwagon?
Dunno when heheh

Eh? no specific market other than KLSE . I dont target a specific foreign country, just like U with yr mutual funds approach.

To be more specific PIX done last Dec + another smaller portion last week.
PFEPRF done early Jan 2012 + waiting for another smaller portion IF things go on up later this month.

Pls note though, that these lump sums are in addition to my quarterly value + dollar averaging.
My double-barrel shotgun = no fear/greed + value/opportunity . I've no sniping armor piercing rifle yet, thus, gotta take a shotgun approach

Well i think KucingFight has some triggers, like if Fixed Income held % is WAAAY out of whack, he'll spend some of it on Equities or Gold/etc gua.

---

Added on February 14, 2012, 6:10 pmI'm no seafood though i'd recommend U try this eyeballing this:
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/690951/+1850

Then google items like
Asset Allocation, Asset Classes, Asset Sub-Classes, Dollar Cost Averaging, Value Cost Averaging, TwinVest, Value and Growth Stocks.
Phew.. that should take care of the basics

Lots of things out there for learning - sigh.. wished Google and Internet was so easily available when i was younger & dumber..

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Feb 14 2012, 06:10 PM

True - based on Value buying. However, what if the market decides to go "like that" threading bit by bit up for the next 3 year?
Heheh - that means we'd have lost 3 years CAGR by not participating right?

Mind U, i'm not saying "dont follow value investing", k?
I'm just saying that using value investing is just one method, there are other methods as well.
IF U are like me, a worker ant earning salary and saving a chunk to invest, sooner or later, U'd be totally lopsided with Fixed Income (cash, bonds, FD, EPF) holdings as a % of total net worth and total investments held IF we kept waiting and holding on to ammo coz no obvious value/lelong appeared

Just throwing some ideas around ar, no right or wrong

no seafood here though IMHO, i'd recommend U stick to FD or plonk yr cash into yr flexi mortgage if U have one.
1yr or 6 mths time horizon + liquid in case of emergencies? Sorry ar - point blank, U dont seem to have built up an emergency fund AND your "investment" time horizon is too short to be viable IMHO.

---

Added on February 14, 2012, 6:41 pmer.. U talking about ForEx or Money Market? MM ada lar but ForEx.. havent seen one locally

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Feb 14 2012, 06:41 PM

3 months' data = NEVER drop in price... laughing until i fell off my chair
KParam has the patience.. ohm... ohm.. newbies' gift from the sky

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Feb 21 2012, 05:41 PM

Hhehe - you're right dewVP.
I think PinkSpider & i was just... very shell shocked at yr "expectations management" - me especially on the time aspect (3 months = forever)
There's a first time for anything i guess - thanks for bringing some smiles this afternoon

Just to help adjust "time & returns expectations", IMHO (please tembak if totally out of whack ar bros & sis):
1. Short term is usually 1 to 2 yrs for equity funds, which is usually not advisable.

2. medium = 3 to 5 years+

3. long = 10yrs+

4. an average return of 6%pa to 9%pa compounded annual growth rate (CAGR) / compounded per annum returns is "average" for 5yrs+ to 10 yrs+
Note that average is statistical - Year 1 may be 70%pa, year 2 20%pa, year 3 15%pa, year 4 -30%pa!, etc.
Can be a wild ride even if "statistical average" returns/growth is about 6%pa to 9%pa compounded - thus, be prepared mentally

5. If you're not a hard-core investor, to calculate yr net returns pa / CAGR, just take yr transaction's (CURRENT VALUE / COST) ^ (1/years held) -1
This is assuming U've dividends auto-reinvested

6. Focus on total systematic offense, defense and the "supply chain", not individual funds/stocks.
ie. Have a plan & methodologies - eg. Asset Allocation with DDI + Value lump sum OR Asset Allocation with Value Averaging + Value Lump sum, etc.

Just a thought

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Feb 21 2012, 05:58 PM

ah.. my bad English comprehension then.
Anyhow, AmDynamic? I'm assuming AmDynamic Bond fund? Definitely ada more than 3 months data leh. Again, perhaps U chose to see 3 months only thus that's your reality. No probs though - peace

Is this what U are looking for?
For Public Mutual's:
Page 199 of the Master Prospectus http://www.publicmutual.com.my/OurFunds/Pr...usDownload.aspx
It is stated:
% per annum of NAV for each fund in tabular format
AND
at the bottom of the page "..The management fee is calculated and accrued daily...."

------
Other charges? er.. SWITCHING fees, back loads (for some fund houses may have), etc.
Too general a Q methinks as there are so many funds and fund houses, each with their own peculiarities, akin to asking "what are the other costs to for a massage" - it DEPENDS heheh

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Mar 21 2012, 01:47 PM

entahlah - the Q itself a bit fuzzy to my lowbrow IQ
I thought fellow forumer meant "show me mana stated NAV is already net of the management fees and stuff", not reporting of management fees and other stuff
I need a stiff drink.... <hopes HR aint reading this>

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Mar 21 2012, 01:54 PM

To all Mutual Fund / Unit Trust agents,

Just to check / clarify.

For withdrawals from EPF for Mutual Fund investments, I was just told by Public Mutual that EPF does NOT accept digital printout of ICs which were scanned into my PC and printed out - ie. "must be photostated".

True / False?
Note: I've just written to EPF as this withdrawal was for my sis & I.

IF True, this is truly MALAYSIA BOLEH
Are we supposed to go back to the stone age?
ie. Abandon digital and info age, go back to photocopying and er.. these days not that easy to find photocopy shops around, especially during off work hours.

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Mar 29 2012, 06:57 PM

No Sifu here boss, just an average Joe focused on making something for my girl and my retirement
Attached is the mutual fund worksheets in ZIP.
Please remember to "Add-Ins" and put in the stuff required (see screenshot), else the CAGR using Excel's XIRR() function wont work.


As for the Stocks worksheet.. er.. i'm having trouble thinking of how to make it easy to use as it reads a CSV EXPORT FILE specially formatted by me from HLeB
Let me meditate on it a bit yar and see how it can be solved easily

NOTE: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK - it's my cleaned-up personal worksheets with some samples for U to understand and modify to your own needs.

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Apr 7 2012, 09:39 PM


Attached File(s)
 Sample_PFP___Mutual_Funds.zip ( 64.89k ) Number of downloads: 60