What Do "Spay" and "Neuter" Really Mean?
Female dogs and cats are spayed by removing their reproductive organs, and male dogs and cats are neutered by removing their testicles.
In both cases the operation is performed while the pet is under anesthesia. Depending on your pet's age, size, and health, he or she will stay at your veterinarian's office for a few hours or a few days.
Depending upon the procedure, your pet may need stitches removed after a few days. Your veterinarian can fully explain spay and neuter procedures to you and discuss with you the best age at which to sterilize your pet.

Benefits of spaying / neutering:

Why is spaying / neutering good for your pets?  
1) Spaying and neutering helps dogs and cats live longer, healthier lives.
2) Spaying and neutering can eliminate or reduce the incidence of a number of health problems that can be very difficult or expensive to treat.
3) Spaying eliminates the possibility of uterine or ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, particularly when your pet is spayed before her first estrous cycle.
4) Neutering eliminates testicular cancer and decreases the incidence of prostate disease.

Why is spaying / neutering good for you?  
1) Spaying and neutering makes pets better, more affectionate companions.
2) Neutering dogs/cats makes them less likely to spray and mark territory.
3) Spaying a dog or cat eliminates her heat cycle. Estrus lasts an average of six to 12 days, often twice a year, in dogs and an average of six to seven days, three or more times a year, in cats. Females in heat can cry incessantly, show nervous behavior, and attract unwanted male animals.
4) Unsterilized animals often exhibit more behavior and temperament problems than do those who have been spayed or neutered.
5) Spaying and neutering can make pets less likely to bite.
6) Neutering makes pets less likely to roam the neighborhood, run away, or get into fights.

Why is spaying / neutering good for the community?  
1) Communities spend millions of dollars to control unwanted animals.
2) Irresponsible breeding contributes to the problem of dog bites and attacks.
3) Animal shelters are overburdened with surplus animals.
4) Stray pets and homeless animals get into trash containers, defecate in public areas or on private lawns, and frighten or anger people who have no understanding of their misery or needs.
5) Some stray animals also scare away or kill birds and wildlife

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Some Myths surrounding Spaying / Neutering:

I love my pet so much, I want another one just like her.  
Chances are, your pet's offspring won't be just like their mother or father. Even breeders who follow generations of bloodlines can't guarantee they will get just what they want out of a particular litter. A pet owner's chances are even slimmer. In fact, it is possible that the puppies or kittens will inherit their parents' worst traits rather than the great ones you are trying to duplicate. Each animal is an individual with lovable quirks and habits of its own.

A female cat or dog should have a litter before she is spayed.  
The sooner you spay your female, the better her health will be in the future. The likelihood of developing mammary tumors or uterine infections increases the longer a female goes unspayed. In fact, a female spayed before sexual maturity (six to nine months of age) only has one-seventh the risk of developing mammary cancer, compared to an intact female.
Neutering reduces a dog's ability as a watchdog.
Don't confuse aggressiveness with protectiveness; a sterilized dog protects his/her home and family just as well as an unneutered dog, and many unwanted aggression problems can be avoided by early neutering.

My pet will become fat and lazy.  
Lack of exercise and overfeeding make pets fat and lazy - not neutering. It is true that altered animals require fewer calories. There's an easy way to keep them fit and healthy: cut down on their meals and treats, provide toys to keep them busy, and make time for walks or playtime every day.

My children will not have the chance to witness "the miracle of birth."
Countless books and videos are available to teach your children about birth in a responsible manner, without endangering your family pet's health (did you know that your cat or dog may get sick and even die during pregnancy and birth? Also, it is not uncommon for one or several of the babies to die within the first few weeks after birth).

Even if children are able to see a pet give birth -- which is unlikely, since it usually occurs at night and in seclusion -- the lesson they will really learn is that animals can be created and discarded as it suits us. Instead, explain to your children that the real miracle is life and that preventing the birth of some pets can save the lives of others.

Instead of showing your children the "miracle of birth," why not foster a litter of kittens or puppies for a shelter or rescue group? You will make a great difference for orphaned animals, your kids will love it just as much, and you will be teaching them to treat animals responsibly.
It is not safe to spay a female before her first heat. Early spay or neuter is risky.
As long as a kitten or puppy is healthy, weighs more than two pounds, and is two months old, he or she can be neutered or spayed. Male rabbits can be neutered as soon as their testicles become visible (at 3 to 4 months of age). Female rabbits can be spayed at 4 to 5 months old. Veterinary medicine has made great strides in the last years and many veterinarians now practise perfectly safe early sterilization.

Neutering is cruel and painful to the pet.  
Every surgery carries certain risks, but sterilization is the most common surgery performed on animals today. Spays and neuters are performed with the same general anesthesia used in human medicine, and pain medication is available for animals.

The surgery usually requires minimal hospitalization -- many pets can go home the same day. And with a minimal amount of home care, your pet will resume normal behavior in a couple of days. In fact, many males act perfectly normal the day after surgery so don't be surprised if your dog tries to play ball with you the morning after his neuter (do restrict your pet's activity for 7-14 days after surgery depending on your vet's recommendations).
Kittens and puppies are so adorable that it will be easy to find homes for them.
In six years, one female dog and her offspring can be the source of 67,000 puppies, and in seven years one cat can be the source of 420,000 kittens! But even if your pet does have "just one " litter, it won't be easy finding good homes for all of them. Every year hundreds of kittens and puppies die in shelters right here in San Diego County. Most of them are perfectly healthy and cute, but there simply aren't enough homes for them. It's not a question of age or cuteness... it's pure math.

We don't need to neuter males because they aren't the ones having the litters.
Every litter is sired by a male. A single male can impregnate many females in just one day! Also, neutering isn't just about preventing litters. Keep in mind that neutering your male animal before sexual maturity dramatically reduces diseases of the prostate and testicles. It also reduces aggression and territorial behaviors, making your male pet so much more pleasant to live with.

I don't want my male animal to feel like less of a male.  
Pets don't have any concept of sexual identity or ego. Your dog, cat, or rabbit won't suffer any kind of emotional reaction or identity crisis when neutered.

My animal is a purebred so breeding her won't contribute to the problem.
A large number of animals killed at shelters and pounds are purebreds. Remember, pet overpopulation is a problem of numbers, not "what kinds" of pets.

It's too expensive to get my pet(s) spayed or neutered.
The cost of spay or neuter surgery is a one-time cost; and, if we do say so ourselves, it's a relatively small cost when compared to all the benefits. It certainly is a bargain compared to the cost of having a litter and ensuring the health of the mother and babies. Your pet's pregnancy and the time until the litter is weaned can add up to significant veterinary bills and food costs if complications develop (which is not uncommon). Then there's the heartache if things go wrong and you lose a baby or the mother

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Somehow same issues on my thread... http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/610993

I'll be the first to say nono to neuter...say "TakNak to Neuter!!!"

just imagine urself being neuter ok? urghhh...so cruel!

I know its good for them but somehow, I just cannot bring myself to do it when I only had Casper. In the end, I got him a partner, Moonie and decided to take care of them for life.

I always think - your mom thinks it's good for you, send you to the chop board - how would you feel? Unfair la. I'm not letting my dog make the decision, I'm making the better decision for him as a good owner. If we talk about the amount of stray dogs on the road, then that's a different case.

In the end, I feel spaying and neutering is for SPCA, not for home owners. That's just my humble thought. Thanks for reading.

I know its good for them but somehow, I just cannot bring myself to do it when I only had Casper. In the end, I got him a partner, Moonie and decided to take care of them for life.

I always think - your mom thinks it's good for you, send you to the chop board - how would you feel? Unfair la. I'm not letting my dog make the decision, I'm making the better decision for him as a good owner. If we talk about the amount of stray dogs on the road, then that's a different case.

In the end, I feel spaying and neutering is for SPCA, not for home owners. That's just my humble thought. Thanks for reading.

well i won't do it..let nature take its course.All my previous dogs have lived healthy lives without being spayed/neutered.
Its not the matter of sexual urges but its just not natural.This is wat MAN invented..So let it be if you can avoid it.

Only reason to do it if you have a male and a female living together.
and you don't want them to breed.But just spay the female.Leave the male.

Maybe we should get birth control pills for pets.At least let them shag

Why do you think neutering/spaying is cruel? I am curious, care to share your opinion?
Do you think it is painful for the pet? Do you think your male animal will feel less of a male after he is neuter? Both question has been answered above. Animal is not like human, they do not have sexual urges - they do it as natural instinct only.

OT: A lot of people have vasectomy / tubal ligation surgery as a form of permanent birth control.

U say for their health sake which i tin is a pure rubbish...den y dun u neuter urself now? Den it will reduce the risk of AIDS, penyakit kelamin....and also no poor kids on street...lesser crime cases..like Nurin...tin again ok? Dun act like u r the only one flowing with warm blooded ok? 

I'm sorry QiQio, I need to understand your point of view.

How old are you?

Honestly.

KP

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Added on January 14, 2008, 11:07 am

It is true that it is good for their health.

You can consult any vet/doctor if you want and see what they say if think you cannot trust us.

As I have mentioned earlier, even for human, it is not good to give birth every single year.

You got your facts wrong, if you do actually "neuter" a human (which is called vasectomy) it does not help to control AIDS/HIV because the virus remains in the fluid and a person who has under gone vasectomy can still produce discharges when having sex.

"Neutering" human (vasectomy) will only help curb unwanted/illigitimate children not help to curb sex offenders at all.

KP

I'm sorry QiQio, I need to understand your point of view.

How old are you?

Honestly.

KP

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Added on January 14, 2008, 11:07 am

It is true that it is good for their health.

You can consult any vet/doctor if you want and see what they say if think you cannot trust us.

As I have mentioned earlier, even for human, it is not good to give birth every single year.

You got your facts wrong, if you do actually "neuter" a human (which is called vasectomy) it does not help to control AIDS/HIV because the virus remains in the fluid and a person who has under gone vasectomy can still produce discharges when having sex.

"Neutering" human (vasectomy) will only help curb unwanted/illigitimate children not help to curb sex offenders at all.

KP

IS there any concern my age with neuter issue?

IS there any concern my age with neuter issue?

I'm a vr gd fren for the vet at Setapak here...an indian guy not coz i dog always sick is beacuse we chat alot bout dogs...he always tell me dogs' history and some of his philosophy on dogs...when i talk bout neutering...he abit over react somehow by asking me: "Why dis kind of question ever come to ur mind?", "IS not i dun wan to earn ur money but dats not the wise choice if u love ur dog"...maybe he feels dat i treat dog as a fren rather than a pet...

Basically, I feel that human should not play as God. I will always believe that its meant to be and let mother nature takes it course. This is why I am against spaying and neutering. I know not every owner is a good owner, not everyone can be responsible. Some are careless, some just dont have the time, others have different excuses.

Simply put, I believe that "Do not do what you dont want others to do unto you."

won,
I understand your point and I know many of us will have differing views about this topic of discussion. It's good that we have topics like this to keep the board alive and going.

Like you said, it's the owners decision and responsibility to take care of the pet. When I bought my dog, I made a vow to my girl (soon to be wife) that if I failed at taking care of them, it will only reflect how poorly I would be if I am a dad. I did that because she is a pet lover and I want to be good and right now, as an owner, I would dare say I am doing the right thing.

xecton,
The home owners dont have to do it. They just have to be responsible. I know we cannot care for all our pet's offsprings. There are bound to be 'accidents' sometimes and more puppies come along the way. How I see it is,
1. Give it to your relatives where you can often visit
2. Sell it to a new home - I believe if people fork out money from their pockets, they are bound to be more responsible. If you give it to them free, they are bound to be more careless.

If they surive, it is their life. Whether the next owner wants to spay, neuter or even put them to sleep is the sins the next owner have to bear.

Argh!!! I wanted to click No! to Neutering / Spaying but it turns out I clicked on No! Spaying / Neutering your pet is not cruel!

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for your pets?" section, here is my reply:
Removing reproductive organs, testicles and stiches = UNNECESSARY OUCH!

But it's only a once in a lifetime procedure. Would be more painful to deliver babies twice every year of your life I would say (ofcourse this applies to female while the happy male dog just shags)

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for you?" section, here it is:
Spaying and neutering may bring a lot of good for them like living longer, reduce health problems, more affectionate companions, less territorial, show nervous behaviour, attract unwanted male, behaviour and temperament problems, less likely to bite, get into fights. All these are natural and these are the distinct features about them. Every breed is different, do you modify them to be more submissive? Do you slice off your breast to avoid breast cancer? Why dont we chop off our legs and put on a mechanical one so we become indestructible like Robocop?

Modify to become more submissive? Well ain't that bad for a having a more handsome little boy at home

But if I do have breast cancer, I would chop off my breast!

For the "Why is spaying / neutering good for the community?" section, here:
A lot of positive for the community does not mean I am about to slice off my poor kid's balls just because of the world. We really should not have that sacrifice one to save all mentality. All we have to do is be more responsible. I know everyone cannot be like that, I will let God deal with that.

If one feels positively-positive (if there is such word) that later in the future he/she will not contribute to selling or giving off or dumping their pets off spring and contribute to the over population of unwanted pets, then fine, don't neuter.

FAQs

4. My children will not have the chance to witness "the miracle of birth."
Now this is bullshit because why would anyone want their children to witness such a gory scene? They will have their chance when they deliver or when they watch their wife do.

Agree.

5. Neutering is cruel and painful to the pet.
This I have to agree. Would you like to be put on the cutting board just cause your mom thinks "OK, let's stop our family generation tree."

Hey it happens to human too.

6. We don't need to neuter males because they aren't the ones having the litters.
Oh man, come to the world of animals and we still have that preference of male is more superior than female just like the traditional Chinese mentality?

Yeah, males are not the ones having the litter they're the ones having the fun and pissing/marking all over the place only (strictly referring to pets)

7. I don't want my male animal to feel like less of a male.
A "male" isnt determined by the balls.

True and bravo.

9. It's too expensive to get my pet(s) spayed or neutered.
So is owning a pet for 15 years, give it up then.

So true

Forgive me.

Forgive me too!

Its not nature to have 2 animals of different gender stay together and "shag" as you put it. In the wild they mate then they go their seperate ways. Putting them together and letting the male harrass the female all day can be stressful for the female especially if the male is really high libido. I'd rather neuter the male and leave the female as she is rather than the other way round.

Neutering males are easier and less complicated than spaying females thus the cost is always higher to spay.

Spaying needs a minor surgery, but neutering is much-much less.

Do you know that if you neuter/spay your pet they can still "shag" all they like?

Even if you have a vasectomy, you can still "shag" all you like.

Spaying/neutering is not removing the sexual organ itself, it just removes the part that produces the "thing" to create off springs.


KP

AS I mention, pls imagine ur next life as a dog and being neuter by ur master...how does it feel? huh? huh?

U say for their health sake which i tin is a pure rubbish...den y dun u neuter urself now? Den it will reduce the risk of AIDS, penyakit kelamin....and also no poor kids on street...lesser crime cases..like Nurin...tin again ok? Dun act like u r the only one flowing with warm blooded ok? 

What is not a wise choice? Neutering?

That vet has been treating my dogs for years, as young as I was 10..... he was the one who neutered my dog to save him from cancer..... he was the one who neutered my other dog for he said it could work for dominance behaviour..... he was the one who spayed my female dog because she was in a home with many male dogs.....

I have a male MS and a female MS living together, both intact. And the MS group already knows how much trouble (and money on pampers) that I go through every six months. I am thinking of spaying/neutering both for health reasons but the fact that i have to knock them temporarily with anesthetics puts me off.

Why?

Because of this...


Now this is CRUEL (ear cropping). When I first got my MS, a showbreeder adviced me to crop his ears, and I blindly/idiotically/gullibly did. Unlike spaying/neutering this is a totally unnecessary procedure akin to cosmetic surgery    I hate myself to this day for doing it.
And right after the operation, you could see my poor boy shivering, yet he won't respond when you call or pat him as he is still hasn't woken up. It is a heart wrenching sight, and after that regular vet visits are needed to clean to sutures & change the bandages

If anything, always get a second opinion on everything - the showbreeder has her reasons and I don't blame her. I blame myself for not being knowledgeable enough, hence i repeatedly ask ppl not to impose human feelings/wants on their furkids.

Also, if your precious furkids were to 'suffer' an operation and you have to be 'cruel' once only in their lifetime, please let it be a neutering/spaying procedure.

Theres a woman who lives on the same row as my family home who is amazingly kind enough to catch female stray cats, take them to the vet and pay out of her own pocket to have them spayed
why do i say 'kind' ?
well...because the life of a female stray is pretty much giving birth non stop the body getting weaker and weaker with each birth. Not to mention the poor worm ridden kittens who almost never survive. They keep getting sick, starving, getting run over by cars and if they manage to make it to adulthood only end up in the same situation as their parents.
I really look up to this lady, its hard to find people who care and actually DO something to make a difference. Talk is cheap.
Feeding strays is well and good, im not saying dont do it (i do it too) but unless you are willing to care for them full time, even i have to admit that the sad reality is that it changes..well...pretty much nothing

'It's all created for the conveniences of mankind'
Yes it probably was created for convinience. But to be fair you must realize that not every pet owner is doing this for their own selfish reasons. There are many very valid, very real reasons to do it for the health of the animal.

If you are choose not to have it done and can be 100% responsible for your animal and its offspring thats ok with me.
But to say that spaying/neutering is cruel, i think this is a rather one sided biased view of it, as in the example of the lady above and in so many situations that are easily overlooked, I have to say that spaying/neutering is the kind, resposible and  humane thing to do.

Needless to say i voted for neutering/spaying. Both my cats (adopted from a litter abandoned behind my house ) have had it done

This is the best sounding post I have ever read and what the woman is doing is really something worthy of respect. How does she catch the cat? If you put it in a cycle like that, I can see the picture better.

Even though I agree with this but I only see this as a point of view for strays and not properly home owned pets. If we were to house a pet, we were to care and be responsible for it for life.

My word on Neutering and spaying...it's all created for the conveniences of mankind, not the animals (excluding the health part) be it for birth control, be it for ur male animals to stop scent marking, etc

krynzpeaches,
Once in a life time is still painful and this kind of pain cannot be compared to the pain of birth-giving because watching their offsprings is the joy of life, humans and animals alike.

If not submissive = less handsome meh? Look ma-si-like-that... Sama sama saje. And no, touch wood, dont talk about yourself like that. Take "one", dont use "I" - if one have breast cancer, then she should chop off her breast.

POsitively-positive, you must be refering to me cause that's exactly how I feel.

Yes, I would like to know about such details as well - how long the surgery take, how long it takes to heal, what are the risk (infections, etc), etc.

'It's all created for the conveniences of mankind'
Yes it probably was created for convinience. But to be fair you must realize that not every pet owner is doing this for their own selfish reasons. There are many very valid, very real reasons to do it for the health of the animal.

If you are choose not to have it done and can be 100% responsible for your animal and its offspring thats ok with me.
But to say that spaying/neutering is cruel, i think this is a rather one sided biased view of it, as in the example of the lady above and in so many situations that are easily overlooked, I have to say that spaying/neutering is the kind, resposible and  humane thing to do.

Needless to say i voted for neutering/spaying. Both my cats (adopted from a litter abandoned behind my house ) have had it done

Thank you everyone for their valuable feedback! 
The posts in this thread has been interesting. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, if you share out your side of the view as well, perhaps we might learn something and help others to look at the issue in another point of view. Do feel free to post your opinion and we may have a courteous debate on it.

For example -  in the senario where you have a male and a female - which one will you spay/neuter? both?
From pasarmalam, he mention that he would spay the female and leave the male intact. Jaswwp would prefer to neuter the male so that the female will not be harassed and get stress out. I think this is pretty reasonable. Then, Hamster9 point out that by just neutering the male, it will still invite the other male to intrude on your property and that might not solve the problem, which is pretty true. I admit I didn't think of this until it was pointed out. 

Any owner who has the pet spayed / neuter care to share the experience of the process? How long is the surgery and does it take a long time for your pet to heal? Any complications? Thanks!

p/s: Pennywise, thanks for putting up your stand in this matter even you are outnumbered.    I think your posts has made this thread very interesting!

If u think that spaying or neutering is bad, think about not giving your male dog to do it when the female you own is on heat. Think of their frustration and anxiety knowing that its there, but he cant do it. Males often have this kind of problem when there is a female on heat nearby. Thats mental torture if you think about it.

Yes, it is for the convenience of mankind who loves their pet and knows their responsibility to keep one properly and safely until their end of time instead of a few dozens and not knowing what to do with it.

And also like what Cimredopyh has said too...

well.. for the least I placed my vote as No Comment as I feel there's both side of the story.

But neutering and spraying is not as cruel as debarking and declawing 

AS I mention, pls imagine ur next life as a dog and being neuter by ur master...how does it feel? huh? huh?

U say for their health sake which i tin is a pure rubbish...den y dun u neuter urself now? Den it will reduce the risk of AIDS, penyakit kelamin....and also no poor kids on street...lesser crime cases..like Nurin...tin again ok? Dun act like u r the only one flowing with warm blooded ok? 

IS there any concern my age with neuter issue?

I'm a vr gd fren for the vet at Setapak here...an indian guy not coz i dog always sick is beacuse we chat alot bout dogs...he always tell me dogs' history and some of his philosophy on dogs...when i talk bout neutering...he abit over react somehow by asking me: "Why dis kind of question ever come to ur mind?", "IS not i dun wan to earn ur money but dats not the wise choice if u love ur dog"...maybe he feels dat i treat dog as a fren rather than a pet...

If the we are keeping the pets ourselves and are responsible owner, I guess we do have the option whether we want to spay/ neuter or keep them intact. 

One point to ponder however, just say in the senario like:
1) when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
2) we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption

Will you spay/ neuter the pets then? Do you still think that is is cruel and we should let mother nature take its course?

There is a possibilty that you may not find a good reponsible owner to take care of them. The owner might just let them be and unwanted litter happens. The new owner may just simply pass to other people, throw the puppies away and they become strays.

Worse still, there are some unscrupulous people who will lie to adopt your pet and then resell it to make money / treat it like a breeding machine. These cases really happens as we have read about them in other forum.

What will you do? 

If the we are keeping the pets ourselves and are responsible owner, I guess we do have the option whether we want to spay/ neuter or keep them intact. 

One point to ponder however, just say in the senario like:
1) when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
2) we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption

Will you spay/ neuter the pets then? Do you still think that is is cruel and we should let mother nature take its course?

There is a possibilty that you may not find a good reponsible owner to take care of them. The owner might just let them be and unwanted litter happens. The new owner may just simply pass to other people, throw the puppies away and they become strays.

Worse still, there are some unscrupulous people who will lie to adopt your pet and then resell it to make money / treat it like a breeding machine. These cases really happens as we have read about them in other forum.

What will you do? 

Well..I have to applaud Junnie in the adoption of the chow chow she posted before the owner hands over the chow chow, the new owner would have to pay for spaying.    Too bad it has already landed in a family already when we called to confirm

I know I wouldn't be angry too, atleast you found your furkid safe and sound, and it being spayed/neuter already save you the cost to do so right?


KP

If the we are keeping the pets ourselves and are responsible owner, I guess we do have the option whether we want to spay/ neuter or keep them intact. 

One point to ponder however, just say in the senario like:
1) when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
2) we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption

Will you spay/ neuter the pets then? Do you still think that is is cruel and we should let mother nature take its course?

There is a possibilty that you may not find a good reponsible owner to take care of them. The owner might just let them be and unwanted litter happens. The new owner may just simply pass to other people, throw the puppies away and they become strays.

Worse still, there are some unscrupulous people who will lie to adopt your pet and then resell it to make money / treat it like a breeding machine. These cases really happens as we have read about them in other forum.

What will you do? 

That's IF you wanted to spay / neuter... If you wanted to get a next generation and you just came home with the other half of your furkid. You'd scream and kill the founder.

Anyway, here's my post to your replies above.
krynzpeaches,
Give birth! Lose your body shape! Endless hours of nursing! Clingy is good!! Then you watch them grow up and take care of you back (applies to humans), or be taken care off by the same responsible owner (applies for pets) - I think it's great!!

Got such thing as chop chop = more handsome wan meh? This I really do not know but finding a body organ missing, die die I'm all against it! I'm refering to myself being positively positive in being the ideal responsible owner but I know accidents might happen thats why if you read on the other thread, I'm taking precaution with Moonie now.

Seems like you experienced with this whole process thingy. By the way, I know you're pro for Sugar Gliders, did your neuter / spay yours (a pair)?

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Added on January 15, 2008, 11:49 pm
Ok, you just love to put up a good fight, eh? I like you... Hehehe... Let me answer this.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

Scenario 2 - we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption
- Stray is not my problem go to hell. Kidding. If I found a stray, I'd run it over and save the world from another 'problem'. Kidding. The serious thing I'd do is put it up for adoption. Before handing over to the new owner, I will speak to them and tell them the available options out there for them to spay / neuter their furkids.

Bottomline: I will educate people that there is such an option to neuter / spay their kids and not contribute to the problem at-hand but for myself, I wont do it. Hahaha... I think suddenly some of you guys going to flame me for being DOUBLE STANDARDS! Hahaha... Lol!!

I reply for the sake of replying saje. Dont take it too seriously. Just do what you think is right for you. For my conscience, neuter / spay is really not for me. Maybe later, I know the risk will be higher, so still considering - maybe wear baby diaper whenever on heat, for life.

Yes, what people do in the background, we do not know but like I said, that is the sin for him to carry, not me. I know this talk about sin and all is subjective as most probably do not see how God will play a part in this. Call me selfish but I really cannot bring myself to put my dog on a chopping board.

I know 3 weeks of healing from operation sounds so much more tempting from 3 years of labour pain. If I cannot take care of it anymore and give it up. If the new owner want to pretend in front of me and background turn my dog into a puppy factory - nasib la for the dog. Best we can do is give it to someone we know and can visit often.

After so many people against my idea, I think MAYBE spaying / neutering might be the way to go before giving it out. But the dogs will never forgive me for giving them that one last pain before pushing them away. I dont think I will ever be able to forgive myself also.

I have extremely high sensors for guilt so that is why I am extremely against shedding blood.

That's IF you wanted to spay / neuter... If you wanted to get a next generation and you just came home with the other half of your furkid. You'd scream and kill the founder.

---

Added on January 15, 2008, 11:49 pm
Ok, you just love to put up a good fight, eh? I like you... Hehehe... Let me answer this.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

Scenario 2 - we found stray / lost pets (and unable to fin its owner) and put them up for adoption
- Stray is not my problem go to hell. Kidding. If I found a stray, I'd run it over and save the world from another 'problem'. Kidding. The serious thing I'd do is put it up for adoption. Before handing over to the new owner, I will speak to them and tell them the available options out there for them to spay / neuter their furkids.

Bottomline: I will educate people that there is such an option to neuter / spay their kids and not contribute to the problem at-hand but for myself, I wont do it. Hahaha... I think suddenly some of you guys going to flame me for being DOUBLE STANDARDS! Hahaha... Lol!!

  your answer really   

Anyway in Scenario 1,
Even if you give it up for adoption, how sure are you that the people you are giving is good or bad? Take example you have a very expensive MKA cert female shit tzu and something along the way happened that you have no choice to give it up. You would look for responsible owners right? But anybody can act they love dogs etc but which in fact in the background they have other intention in mind which is breeding.

Would you consider it to be cruel that they start breeding her non-stop just to get money out of it? Means every possible heat cycle she would be "raped" by a male dog to get offspring for sale. Means it's going to wear out her womb in say 3 years?

Or

Would you consider it to be cruel to suffer a one time operation which only last for weeks to heal and happy be someone's pet?

Your choice, 3 weeks of healing from operation or 3 years of labour pain?

Spaying for adoption is a must I'd say.

Also another applaud for junnie too that apart of the new owner bearing the cost of spaying or neutering, the new family will be given a probation of one month from the old owner who will check whether the dog is suitable with the new family or not.    (cough, was put in the waiting line in case something happens to the new family, that's why i know) 

That's IF you wanted to spay / neuter... If you wanted to get a next generation and you just came home with the other half of your furkid. You'd scream and kill the founder.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

Wah liao, I wake up only to find my post kena bang kuat kuat. You guys wait, I reply when I get to work later. Now rushing... Hahahaha...

Thank you everyone for their valuable feedback! 
The posts in this thread has been interesting. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, if you share out your side of the view as well, perhaps we might learn something and help others to look at the issue in another point of view. Do feel free to post your opinion and we may have a courteous debate on it.

For example -  in the senario where you have a male and a female - which one will you spay/neuter? both?
From pasarmalam, he mention that he would spay the female and leave the male intact. Jaswwp would prefer to neuter the male so that the female will not be harassed and get stress out. I think this is pretty reasonable. Then, Hamster9 point out that by just neutering the male, it will still invite the other male to intrude on your property and that might not solve the problem, which is pretty true. I admit I didn't think of this until it was pointed out. 

Any owner who has the pet spayed / neuter care to share the experience of the process? How long is the surgery and does it take a long time for your pet to heal? Any complications? Thanks!

p/s: Pennywise, thanks for putting up your stand in this matter even you are outnumbered.    I think your posts has made this thread very interesting!

krynzpeaches,
Give birth! Lose your body shape! Endless hours of nursing! Clingy is good!! Then you watch them grow up and take care of you back (applies to humans), or be taken care off by the same responsible owner (applies for pets) - I think it's great!!

Got such thing as chop chop = more handsome wan meh? This I really do not know but finding a body organ missing, die die I'm all against it! I'm refering to myself being positively positive in being the ideal responsible owner but I know accidents might happen thats why if you read on the other thread, I'm taking precaution with Moonie now.

Seems like you experienced with this whole process thingy. By the way, I know you're pro for Sugar Gliders, did your neuter / spay yours (a pair)?

---

Added on January 15, 2008, 11:49 pm
Ok, you just love to put up a good fight, eh? I like you... Hehehe... Let me answer this.

Scenario 1 - when the unfortunate happen - we are unable to take care of our pets anymore and have to give them up for adoption.
- I would give them up for adoption as nature would want it - NO AGAIN TO NEUTER / SPAY! Why? Ok, if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it. I know I could have with the spaying and neutering thing but then I do not wish to play God. I see it as a sin, as minor as it could be. As light as it is compared to debark / declaw. I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid. I wont go deciding on other people's behalf - that's not right, I think. I know it probably sound selfish that I do not have the courage to bear the sin. It's nothing about guts but I'm all against taking mother nature and modify it into something else. I ain't Captain Planet but I love them too much to hurt them. Discipline / cane them, I think OK... Cut them, NO!

After so many people against my idea, I think MAYBE spaying / neutering might be the way to go before giving it out. But the dogs will never forgive me for giving them that one last pain before pushing them away. I dont think I will ever be able to forgive myself also.

I have extremely high sensors for guilt so that is why I am extremely against shedding blood.

Some of you guys argue that spaying/neutering your pets is a human act and that it's not natural.

Breeding your pet and selling of their puppies/kittens/etc <-- Did it cross your mind that the very act of breeding your pet for profit is also a 'human act' rather than letting nature take its course?

Alot of things that we do for our pets are 'not' natural. We groom them, we cut their nails, we bathe them with flowery scented shampoo, feed them with nutritious kibbles - all these are 'not' natural. No?

If sending our pets to be spay/neutered is considered as sin, then we are also potentially committing sin by handing over our pet's pups/kittens to people who might torture/abuse them. It's really easy to blame fate/destiny or God but it's not 'easy' to blame oneself.

One cannot say, "it's their luck/fate/destiny" if the poor pups/kittens ended up with abusive family who chain/cage them 24/7. These can be prevented by NOT breeding your pet (you can opt to not spay/neuter) or let 'accidents' happen, make more effort and check the background of the people who wants to adopt the little darlings and etc etc.

It's unfair to the pups/kittens if we say it's their luck to end up with bad families. I usually don't go to pet shops because it's heart breaking to see puppies looking at you through the pen or cage. This, my friends, is the result of breeding for profit or 'accidents'.

Sure, some of you guys can say that you can't keep so many dogs/cats in the house after your pet gave birth, hence the selling/adoption of the pups/kittens that follow. Alot of first time owners look at these pups/kittens and see them as 'aaaawww so cute!' - alot of them are NOT prepared when their cute fluffy pup/kitten grows into adulthood.

I've seen many posters here that asks for advice when getting their first dog, with requests like : I want a small friendly dog. I want a cute cute dog. Dog that don't shed much, dog that don't bark much, dog that is easy to control, etc etc. What these people don't realise is that each dog is an individual - their temperament differs, and sometimes dogs that are supposed to shed a little might end up shedding alot.

Then those who breed puppies for sale will recommend their pups to them. Taken in by the cuteness, the new owner buys the pup. A year or so later, they find that they can't control the dog and gives it up for adoption or just chuck the dog away in some park. The dog breeds, and puppies are born and the cycle continues.

Personally, I would rather have my pets spayed/neutered than to give their puppies away to strangers. I do not want to worry if the foster family is treating them right or not.

This is just my 2 cents, so flame-throwers, don't flame over here ok? I apologise in advance if I've accidentally stepped on anyone's toes and paws. or tails...

beranak pon shedding of blood gak   

nasib la that dog?    haih..tak sakit hati ke?   dah tak sayang ke? 

sin and God? Which part of the Bible/ Quran/ buddhist sutra/ hinduism sez so? 

Well, I hope if your furkids is lost, it is not found by me then .......jk 

I would say spaying / neutering is advisable if the founder really cannot locate the owner (after a lapse of time and effort spend) and he/she cannot keep the dog and have no choice but to put it out for adoption. At that point of time, I think the probability of ever finding the owner is slim and by not spaying / neutering it, it would just expose the lost dog to the risk of misuse. Imaging, once the furkids got into the hand of the puppy miller, do you think you will ever see them again? They might not even see daylight again - being stuck in a dark cramp cage and only be used for breeding.

I respect your stand on senario 1, I do hope if the case really happen, you will thoroughly screen your potential adoptee before handing your westie over to them.
Another point to add:
Some people think that by not handling over their pet MKA cert, it will discourage the people from breeding their furkids, hence there is no need to spay / neuter. Well, that's not the case. If you see the selling thread nowadays, a lot of puppy without MKA cert is sold and they are snapped up like hotcakes. Hence, unscrupulous breeder don't need the cert at all since the puppy can be easily sold without the MKA certs. They can even market mix breed puppy that are born from simply mixing different breeds together.

You lost your pet, so pretty much it found itself living the life of a stray ( a purebreed with a collar and no way of tracing to any owner is a stray ) then by some amazing luck you find it in in the hands of someone who cares enough to spend money to do something they believe was best for an animal that isnt even theirs, even if you had intended to breed i doubt you would scream and yell to find a much loved pet in the hands of someone like that.
The only person who would scream and yell in such a situation, in my opinion, does not care for that pet as a companion, Thats someone who just cares about breeding
for anyone else the joy of finding them again would eclipse the disapointment of being unable to breed
No matter how i look at it if you give your pet to someone who is irresponsible or someone who takes advantage of your pets ability to reproduce, the 'blood' is still on your hands.

You knew there was a chance it could happen. You were the one who put them in that situation. You made the choices for your pet that resulted in that situation.
If you had done everything you could and still something bad happens, THEN only you can say that it was fate
Accidents happen, priorities and situations can change.
You cant controll or predict what happens in the hands of the new owner so you should do everything you can to make sure your pet stands the best chance at a happy, healthy rest of his/her life

If you didnt do something but  knew maybe you should have, when something bad happens, sorry but you are the guilty one. Too easy to blame everything on God.
Not a flame, just my 2c. If i sound like im hot under the collar its because this was written from the heart. 

Some of you guys argue that spaying/neutering your pets is a human act and that it's not natural.

Breeding your pet and selling of their puppies/kittens/etc <-- Did it cross your mind that the very act of breeding your pet for profit is also a 'human act' rather than letting nature take its course?

Alot of things that we do for our pets are 'not' natural. We groom them, we cut their nails, we bathe them with flowery scented shampoo, feed them with nutritious kibbles - all these are 'not' natural. No?

If sending our pets to be spay/neutered is considered as sin, then we are also potentially committing sin by handing over our pet's pups/kittens to people who might torture/abuse them. It's really easy to blame fate/destiny or God but it's not 'easy' to blame oneself.

One cannot say, "it's their luck/fate/destiny" if the poor pups/kittens ended up with abusive family who chain/cage them 24/7. These can be prevented by NOT breeding your pet (you can opt to not spay/neuter) or let 'accidents' happen, make more effort and check the background of the people who wants to adopt the little darlings and etc etc.

It's unfair to the pups/kittens if we say it's their luck to end up with bad families. I usually don't go to pet shops because it's heart breaking to see puppies looking at you through the pen or cage. This, my friends, is the result of breeding for profit or 'accidents'.

Sure, some of you guys can say that you can't keep so many dogs/cats in the house after your pet gave birth, hence the selling/adoption of the pups/kittens that follow. Alot of first time owners look at these pups/kittens and see them as 'aaaawww so cute!' - alot of them are NOT prepared when their cute fluffy pup/kitten grows into adulthood.

I've seen many posters here that asks for advice when getting their first dog, with requests like : I want a small friendly dog. I want a cute cute dog. Dog that don't shed much, dog that don't bark much, dog that is easy to control, etc etc. What these people don't realise is that each dog is an individual - their temperament differs, and sometimes dogs that are supposed to shed a little might end up shedding alot.

Then those who breed puppies for sale will recommend their pups to them. Taken in by the cuteness, the new owner buys the pup. A year or so later, they find that they can't control the dog and gives it up for adoption or just chuck the dog away in some park. The dog breeds, and puppies are born and the cycle continues.

Personally, I would rather have my pets spayed/neutered than to give their puppies away to strangers. I do not want to worry if the foster family is treating them right or not.

This is just my 2 cents, so flame-throwers, don't flame over here ok? I apologise in advance if I've accidentally stepped on anyone's toes and paws.

I agree that a lot of things we do for them is not natural - such as those you listed but that does not cause them pain and also if we really let NATURE takes it course. I doubt my poor Westie will survive. At most, they'd first be run over by cars as soon as they step out of my house. So, let me put it this way, by not spaying / neutering them I feel that we are giving him that last bit of nature about themselves. Get what I mean?

You have the same argument point as Cimredopyh. It is partly our fault for not doing enough for them. However, what if we spay and neuter them and then the new owner realize "Awww.. this damn thing dont even have its genitals! What the hell am I keeping and feeding it for when it cant brings me money!" and he / she kills it and cook stew with its meat? If we think of it like that, wouldnt that be more cruel? Or maybe NOT kill it but rather kick it out of the house to survive on its own in the wild wild city? Hahahaha...

Anyway, there wont be much of a flaming here because we are all friendly people, just looking at things from some very different perspectives. Thanks for your feedback!!

With our fast moving generation/country, do you really-really think your off springs will take care of you as much as you have for them?

I've seen too much disappointment and sad stories to let that happen again.

Ohh, sooo you're the "positively-positive as an ideal responsible owner?" Not everyone is like YOU and you have to remember that.

Me experiencing the whole ordeal is a personal matter that I don't think is appropriate to discuss it here don't you think? But do you think I would talk about it if I don't?

I'm not a super pro about Sugar Gliders, but at this moment, I know everything I should and still learning about it.

YES, my beloved Igantius Sorvo Corromandel the Male Sugar Glider is NEUTERED. And he is the first Sugar Glider neutered by procedure in Malaysia (the other one was naturally and by accident )

As far as spaying for female gliders, there no such procedure unless necessary because of the presence of their "pouch". It is an extremely difficult and almost fatal procedure to delve into their pouch just to spay female gliders, so unless they have a womb infection, most vets would not recommend it (even in the USA).

-----

Wahhh, sounds so easy for you putting everything in the hands of GOD and let the lucky future owner to bear their own sins!

When you say, "if God intended their life to be a horrible one, nobody can help it" does that mean if one is destined to have a horrible life, one should do nothing, sit on their a** and wait for the terrible to come???

One does not need to be religious to know that God makes plan for everything, but that does not mean we don't have to work things out.

I do not want to touch on this issue pulak, but don't go putting things lightly in Gods hand...

And "I will let the next owner carry the sin, give the owner a chance to choose what's best for their new furkid..." Ermmm, wasn't the furkid yours before? As far as the sin part, that would be the new owner's responsibility, but if your prev furkid turned out to have a bad life in the hands of the owner, wouldn't you feel that stab of pain too? Or you just don't care anymore because the furkid "was" yours?

Never mind, I guess all these talks and discussion does not apply to you at all cuz you know sooo much that you are a responsible owner.
You don't even know what's in their mind to say that they won't forgive you for starters. Animal or not, in time they know things were done for the best and they don't keep vengeance...

If you are extremely high in sensor for guilt, I wonder how can you not feel guilty for allowing the things that you could've prevent to happen... (per say in the case above lah...)
I have to agree with most of the things you say...

All these heated discussion is just to make people see and understand that we should be responsible for the well-being of all animals not just our pets because we are on the top of the hierarchy and we must look out for the others.

Don't just think or feel that yourself is responsible enough, but think of those many-many unfortunates out there that came about because of our mankind's doing too.

I don't know, I think I've seen too much of those already that it breaks my heart from time to time...

I really hope that other forumers (besides all those debating here) actually do come in and read all this and take a piece of something useful with them...

*sighhh*


KP

Its not about the time and money la. I purposely lose my dog, you neuter for me. Then I pretend find back and save on the cost of the operation? I also understand your views. There is a man who sold me Moonie, he is a family friend. I went over his house to pick up Moonie which he brought from Seremban (so I dunno what is in Seremban) but this man, I saw his kennel, right next to his house. All sorts of dogs inside that compound which is supposedly TNB land but he fenced it, opened a small gate connecting to his house and has a kennel inside. From outside, cannot be seen wan because of the kind of entangling grass he put on the fence. I lived in the next neighbourhood for ~25 years and I've never knew that it was a kennel - so when you said never seen daylight, I think I can imagine the scenario. But used for breeding - can I say breeding is better than extinction? What if one day no more Westie or GR or Shih Tzu? Hehehehe... Just another point of view.

Wow, good idea huh... Give away the pup without giving the MKA cert. True true, no cert still sell like hotcake but mostly these are not for breeding and selling cause I think most likely they will still be parked as home owner, home pets as without MKA cert, they hold less value (monetary terms) in the mind of those money making zombies. Therefore, I would believe they would not waste so much time mating and breeding them since they have no cert. I believe even though it may not be the case but this step, helps, definitely!
If its me and I dont believe it's best, I'd still send a flying kick over to the founder. Of course before that, I'd also punch myself in the face for losing it. That is human carelessness that can be avoided if we are more careful.

My God! Just when I finish with one post, here I have to reply another! Lol!!! Ok, let's see what's written.

You know, with the way you reply, I cant tell which is your post and which is my quoted ones. Hahahaha... Are you trying to confuse me in this debate? Hehe!!

I really really think I have the time to take care of their offsprings later, despite the fast moving country. Even if I work in NY, Tokyo or Singapore, I would have time. I make time! I know its difficult sometimes and require a lot of discipline. Sometimes, I dont have the time, so my sister stand-in for me, sometimes my maid but rarely cause she is my grandma's personal helper so we only ask her if its really necessary.

This part, I really dont understand what you're writing. If you dont mind, you can share with us. If it's a personal matter, treat it as I never asked. "Me experiencing the whole ordeal is a personal matter that I don't think is appropriate to discuss it here don't you think? But do you think I would talk about it if I don't?"

Dont be humble about the sugar glider part. I do read and I can tell from what you've written there that you are good with them, damn good. Oh my, your sugar glider have a super-long name. Thank you for educating me about sugar gliders. We can neuter the male and your sugar glider is first in Malaysia - Malaysia Guiness Record Holder!! We cannot do that to the female because it's too risky.

If we take this into the debate, we look at it like a female sugar glider cannot be spayed. Would that not risk the chance of pregnancy if you no longer can take care of it and then it's given to a new owner? I mean, I know dogs can be easily spay / neuter. Sugar gliders can be neuter but not spayed (assuming it's too risky to even try, so we consider it's not do-able). But just because it's easily done on dogs, then we should do it to help with the overgrown size of mongrels and strays on the street? Can we really say that it is all because sugar gliders are caged pets?

This is my personal point of view on this debate. We, humans, would modify anything for our own convenience. From rocks to start fire, to sticks, to matches, lighter, and gas. Same goes for neuter / spay. If it's easily done for dogs, we do it to prevent them from being bred by puppy-millers, and contribute to the number of dogs put to sleep, run over, killed, badly treated. But just because its dangerous to do it to sugar gliders, it's OK to just neuter the male but would that not make the female still open to risk of contributing to the over-populated community of wild sugar gliders, etc?

Get my point? Counter me, I would really like to see what's in your mind so please share it with me on this.

You have the same argument point as the two before you. That the fact that it WAS my furkid before it was given away. You know, I think that if it is really our furkid, we should not give it up AT ALL. Let's not talk about the next generation because not everybody can take care of a sire + dam + a litter of 4. Even I might not be able to do it, but for as long as I live, I will keep Casper and Moonie with me, even if it means selling my PC and stop coming to Lowyat.net! Hahaha... Dont take it lightly because PC is my life and its important to me as anything else but for me to be willing to give it up, it must be really something. This shows that despite they are just DOGS, they are really important in my life. I will share with you my story later on why they are so bloody important and how did I turned so positively positive.

Please do not be offended by my post. I know it sounds as though I'm a stubborn mule but I am not. I just know damn well what I want and what I can do. It does not mean that all these talks and debate does not apply to me. Of course your views affect me and your passion to keep things going, deciding whats best for your furkid even though its different from what's on my mind earn yourself a great deal of respect from me.

Oh yes, I do have strong sense of guilt but I can also not see / look / know / acknowledge once it's out of my hands. That makes it sounds like I'm dangerous eh? My gf says I have double personality! One minute can be so kind, one minute can dont care at all. I dont know but its just the way I am.



Enough reason to cover why I would not put them to spay / neuter. Thanks for reading.

   
You misunderstand my point.

Firstly, I am not suggesting that to save the cost of operation, you purposely lose your dog and then pretend to find it back once it is done. 
If you can find your dog that fast, I don't think it will be spayed / neutered yet. You don't just found a lost dog and bring it immediately for spaying / neutering operation right? You will try to look for its owner, ask around, paste flyers, etc. (unless those people who has the intention to keep the lost dogs for themselves but that's another story) That's because as a dog lover and owner, you will understand the other owner pain of losing their beloved furkids. However, sometimes we are unable to find back the owner no matter how hard we tried or we found out that the furkids have been abandoned by their own owner. Then the next best thing is to find it a new good home. To ensure the furkids do not fall into hands of unscrupulous people, the best solution is to spay / neuter it. If the new potential adoptee actually refused to adopt just because it is spayed / neutered, do you he/she actually truly care for the dog? Think again.

I also do not agree with the statement bold above.
let me show you some pictures of puppy miller dog condition:



The photos are taken from this website : <<ban puppy mills>>.
I post some pictures here just to make an impact. There are more photos in the above website if you are interested. Now, do you still think life is better there?

Secondly, please don't take the "give away my purebreed dog without its MKA cert" as a good idea. 
I have personally seen non MKA cert puppies being sold at a high prices at pet shops, >RM1K per puppy and they are not rare breeds. Some are even mix breed. In fact, dunno why recently got trend of selling mix breed puppies for as high as RM800. Some are so mixed I don't even know what breed they are and they look so weird.   At the current economic condition ( recession and price hike), this still look desirable / profitable to many. Besides this, I would also say that  "What if one day no more Westie or GR or Shih Tzu?" will be more likely from too many cross mixing of breed rather than nobody is breeding them until we can't even differentiate what dog is that ....

OMG, I got work to do...

Anyway, if I split the answers would it be better?
I was referring to the off springs (or your kids in this case) taking care of you, not the other way round.

A mother/parent can raise and take good care of 10 children, but it is not a guarantee that the 10 children will be able to do the same to her/them.

That is why I see that sometimes the pain of giving birth and losing a few percentage of your life is not that worthy...
What I mean is should I be discussing how responsible I am in taking the proper birth control measures too? Or how I would consider under going the proper surgery once I have enough of my own kids?
Thank you, but learning is a continuous process and I still consider myself learning a lot about them.

He's Iggy for short

Yes, not being able to spay a female glider does risk the chance for it to get pregnant if being placed with an active male in the future... BUT, the process of introducing successfully the previously paired female is a longer and tedious process.

Anyway, that is why I DO encourage suggie owners who are real in keeping them for long term to Neuter the males too... And why I intend to keep my suggies for as long as they live...

True enough, because gliders are caged pets unlike dogs/cats that can be left as strays on the streets.

Female gliders also do not go on heat and create noises or mess like dogs and cats do. But male gliders will mark and musk a lot if not neutered. And for those who does not understand this process, will complain and give up the male simply because they bald, turn yellowish and smell.

We don't have gliders in our wild. Gliders that are released in our wild is most likely not to survive at all to even create a wild glider population.

But, there's already too much, too many money making people breeding gliders unethically without thinking of the consequences and the future of the long-life spanned creatures, which leads me to encourage glider neutering.

If you have read, you may have came across us trying to solve this problem and fighting for the greater good of our poorly treated suggie families in the pet shops.
YES, for responsible owner/people, if you have furkid, you shouldn't give it away at all but must find all ways and means to keep them and make them happy.

I know I won't.

Who ever denies the goodness that a pet can bring? I understand your story and am not even surprised by it, because a good pet does make people come together.

I love cats, but am terribly allergic to them plus with suggies to care, I don't have time for one. But, I decided to give in and keep one when I saw how it makes my husband happy and actually more calmer

But I will neuter my cat because I know it will not change his personality, only for his well-being and a measure to prevent him from pissing on my walls.

In your last word "Enough reason to cover why I would not put them to spay / neuter."makes it sound like spaying/neutering is a death sentence...

And for the record, I think you are as stubborn as mule and you have double personality! Haha


KP

*oiii, I gotta work lar...*

Hi guys,

I read this topic with much interest because I own a 8 months old female golden retriever.
For weeks I am struggling within myself whether to spay my dog or not.

I got tonnes of questions running in my mind during these period such as:

Would I breed my dog?
I want to because I like to see her babies... but then again, for a person without any experience in breeding, this is not an easy task. The mother might suffer complication during delivery. And especially large breed, the offspring have a big chance to get Hip Dyspxia which a risk I am not willing to take it.

So, if I do not want to breed it, can't I just leave her as she is... heat comes and go. I just need to make sure no males are around(which should be quite easy since I only have one dog and my house are quite well walled). That stopped me from spaying her. But a few days later another question popped into my mind. Is there any long term effect on the dog if I did not mate her when she is in heat.
So then I did some research and found out that the pulp (equivalent to the human's discharge') tend to stay inside the uterus which can contribute to uterus cancer and all other kinds of tumor(Golden and Lab are not called Tumor Dog for no reason)
Spaying is about removing the productive organ from the body. And because of that the hormon discharge will be different --> this has effect on the temperant but most ppl will tell you that their dog have better temperant after spaying so I guess that is a good thing.

My dog due to have her first heat soon... i guess since she is already 8 months old. Prior to reading about spaying, I have never ever wanted to spay her because of obvious reason - why the surgery/pain when everything is so fine with her? But reading research and report on potential cancer especially for female dog changed my mind. I am doing this as a PREVENTIVE measure. I am not sure if she will get cancer in the future but it is a risk I am not willing to take. I rather see her pain now for a week than seeing her in pain for months (touch wood) in the future...

I love her and that is why I am spaying her...

I know we all got to work but it's so tempted to reply back here to see what others may write!! Woo hoo!!!

You mean after you give birth to a certain amount of children, would you wanna "ikat" (like spay / neuter) or you want to go on with birth control measures? Hmmm... humans would definitely go for "ikat" but then if its for me, if my wife wont want to, I wont force her. Since furkids cannot voice out saying "No, daddy, dont slice my balls!" I just cannot bring myself to JUST-DO-IT for them.

About the sugar glider example on the fact that we can neuter the male but not spay the female. I am talking about it being in the wild. If a male is neutered, the female cannot be spayed (too risky so we conclude as cannot), then that will somehow still contribute to the overpopulated of sugar gliders. Now I am no pro with sugar gliders. I had wanted them and the urge just kept coming back. My sister and gf is stopping me from getting a pair but I had really really want it. So occassionally I would go read up on them in the Sugar Glider thread.

You're the pro when it comes to sugar glider so its my privilege to be educated by you on some information you might share. I didnt know that female sugar gliders who has been paired with one male, takes a long and tedious process to be paired with another male. I believe what you're trying to tell me is that they are faithful to their other half?? Is it??

So neutering the male sugar glider will help with the baldness, turn yellowish and smell issue? Now that is a positive point which might be considered for you sugar gliders lover.

Oh, sugar gliders cannot survive here eh? OKOK... This is educating!!

Are you married? How old are you and how does cat make your husband happier and calmer?

Lastly, I am not stubborn and I dont have double personality!!

As for not having genitals -  Mana ada leh, spaying/neutering is not removal of genitals.  The following sentence that follow about why keep and feed the pet if it brings the owner no money - these are not owners, they are breeders. These people are only concerned bout the money that the dog will bring to them, not because they love the dog.

But, there's already too much, too many money making people breeding gliders unethically without thinking of the consequences and the future of the long-life spanned creatures, which leads me to encourage glider neutering.

Hi guys,

I read this topic with much interest because I own a 8 months old female golden retriever.
For weeks I am struggling within myself whether to spay my dog or not.

I got tonnes of questions running in my mind during these period such as:

Would I breed my dog?
I want to because I like to see her babies... but then again, for a person without any experience in breeding, this is not an easy task. The mother might suffer complication during delivery. And especially large breed, the offspring have a big chance to get Hip Dyspxia which a risk I am not willing to take it.

Personally I will avoid spaying or neutering my pet if I can help it... my dog is fully functional

I wan't my dog to be just the way he's born... and it's also the reason why I prefer males over females... periods can be messy and pregnancies can really complicate matters.

OK, after seriously considering what mrkenjiro wrote, I think maybe spaying and neutering can be a positive thing for our pets health concern.

Now a new question for everyone in here... I want to breed my dog but dont know when but it's not now, possibly. I cannot decide how many litter I want.

Since there so many things that is undecided now, I will not spay / neuter them. Will it be alright later if I suddenly decide to? I know the risk of operation will be there as it gets older.

Since I put up a good fight on my beliefs on saying TAKNAK to spaying / neutering. I hope you guys can put up a equally good fight to guide me down the right path.

Now this aint about double personality or double standards. This is just something that's been bothering me a while. It's not like I can neuter them now and put it back later...[/b]