true Christian this, true Christian that, . . . . yeah, I agree that we should always be humble, but what we shouldn't do, is to check our brains at the door, before entering church

do you notice all the highlighted parts in red?

'weak', 'don't use wisdom' ( might as well say = dumb), a 'nobody', 'wretched soul'. In a nutshell, basically self-denigrating.

YOU portray the psyche of the modern day Christian to the tee.

But that is to be expected, as the pulpit teaches against any sound epistemology, even critical thinking.

It does not teach that faith should be based on evidence; it teaches that faith should NEVER be based on evidence. (blue)

Walk by faith and not by sight, right?

Reliable reasoning, principles of analysis & formal logic is explicitly condemned & frowned upon all over scripture.

It is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. And I will reject as spurious the discernment of the discerning.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the investigator of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since through its wisdom the world did not know God, in God’s wisdom He thought it was a good idea to save the believers through the foolishness of His teaching. Because the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks search for wisdom, but we teach Christ crucified. - 1 Cor 1:19-27

Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. - 1 Cor 3:18-20

Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. - 1 Cor 8:1 -2


Some better examples, the Bible teaches that God punished Zacharias, by striking him mute, merely for requesting evidence - Luke 1:18-20

Doubting Thomas is appeased by such a request, but immediately is shamed by having those who believe without evidence praised as better than him - John 20:24-29

The rich man begging Abraham to send Lazarus to give his relatives evidence enough to believe is shamed for even asking, and told the scriptures should be evidence enough - Luke 16:19-31 Rich Man & Lazarus

When the Jews ask “for a sign” (otherwise known as evidence), Jesus condemns as immoral the very idea of asking for evidence
- Matthew 12:38-39 The Sign of Jonah

Human “reasoning” must therefore be “cast down” along with everything else that is held up against “the knowledge of God” and in their place we must “bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ”. Right? That's what you have been taught, right?

That is why the unbelieving world view us as kooks & crackpots. You can have faith, but please don't practice blind faith.

Ask questions. As believers, it's okay for us to ask questions.

Okay, good nite guys, church 2molo

Oh yeah, & one last thing, I take issue to what you said here. While honesty is certainly commendable & admirable, what do you mean exactly by Christians can't stop sinning??!!

If Christians still continue sinning after coming to saving faith, how different are we from the unbelieving world, then?

What difference is there between a believer & an unbeliever?

What is your saving faith, then? Most importantly, what where you saved from?

There must be a contrast between those who follow Christ & those who belong to the world.

For the Bible says, you will know them by their fruits. Comon!

Why, my soul, are you downcast?
Why so disturbed within me? - bible

shows emotion is soul. and i believe bible more than science.

fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - bible

Jesus created you and He can determine when you will not be able to use your soul properly again.

about spirit, imo, spririt is the awareness of God. A dead spirit is one who no longer believes in God. and lives according to his self-will

the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - bible

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before you. - bible

so why do you seek to reconcile with the world? to the world we chrstian are stupid

the Sripture also say For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it], but to us who are being saved [by God’s grace] it is [the manifestation of] the power of God.

yes true christian means being weak, humble, full of love, a nobody, and always depending on God and never rely or believe in self.

we aren't seeking glory or honor for ourselves, but looking to become slave to God and gloryfying Him all the time.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - bible

Ephesians 4:31- 32 (NIV) - Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Hi everyone, if we claim to be christians and we go to church to seek God let us adhere to Ephesians 4:31-32.

It's okay to have critical thinking and questions, nothing wrong but be tactful in dealing / communicating with another brother or sister.

If bite each other with hostility we are still worldly in our nature and we need to realize we have long way to go. In Heaven this sort of worldly trait has no place. We need to have deep reflection on this.

Heaven is our destiny but can our nature of this sort be at home there? Please post in love.

And right on cue, the class monitor turns up & WHACKS others on the head with the Bible!

I was definitely tactful enough in my posts. Slander? Rage? Anger? Hostility? Deep reflection?

Save it UW, you can save it! Don't need your parenting here.

Instead, it would benefit you much more as the OP to address which of my replies were rude to O'dimm, rather than to act high & mighty here.

Get off your high horse.

Well personally I'm a really a parent and I care for the christians in here.

What is it, may I ask that is really bothering or troubling you?

You are not happy with God or someone hurt you?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: May 21 2023, 01:58 PM

You believe in the Bible. Not Science. You sure, boh?

Here’s what the Bible says :

The earth was created on the first day, and it was without form and void - Genesis 1:2.

“On the second day, a vault, the firmament‟ was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault.

Only on the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed in‟ (not above‟) the vault.”

“And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one
place, and let the dry land appear. And God called the dry land earth; and the
gathering together of the waters called He seas.” – Genesis 1: 9 – 10

“And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule
the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God
set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. And to rule
over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.” – Genesis 1:16 - 18

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. – Psalm 19 : 4 - 6

“He hath founded earth upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.” – Psalm 24 : 1 – 2

The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah. – Psalm 75:3

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. – Psalm 104:5

God, “stretched out the earth above the waters,” – Psalm 136 : 6

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. – Ecclesiastes 1:5

Then Joshua spoke to the Lord on the day when the Lord delivered the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel: 'Sun, stand still [dom] upon Gibeon; and you, Moon, in the valley of Ayalon. '” - Joshua 10:12

“He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.” - 1 Chronicles 16:30 & Psalm 96:10

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. – Job 38:4

When the earth's cornerstone was laid „the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted aloud – Job 38:7

“God who made the earth and fashioned it, himself fixed it fast.” - Isaiah 45:18

“The world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.” - Psalm 93:1

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; - Philippians 2:10

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. “ – Exodus 20: 4

The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: - Deuteronomy 4:18

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. – Isaiah 34:4

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him.’” – Revelation 1:7

The Bible repeatedly affirms that the Earth is “outstretched” as a plane, with the outstretched heavens everywhere above (not all around), that it is firmly fixed on foundations or pillars, and has ends and corners jutting out into the sea.

From all the verses above & more, that are found in our ancient book, it’s undeniable that the scriptures makes claims for a FLAT EARTH. That is the biblical cosmology.

The Bible describes a GEOCENTRIC UNIVERSE within which Earth is the only material world, and around which everything in the cosmos revolves.

The Earth is described as a flat plane, resting upon the “mighty waters of the great deep.”

The Sun and Moon were created as luminaries to divide and light the day and night.

Stars were created as lesser luminaries, and all the celestial lights were created for the Earth and to revolve around the Earth.

Fascinating isn’t it?




Now here is what science/school teacher/text book/T.V. says :

Humans live on the outside of a globe Earth, which is spinning West – East @ 1000 mph,
Orbiting the Sun counter-clockwise @ 67,000 mph,
Spiralling around the outer-arms of the Milky Way @ 500,000 mph,
While shooting through the Universe @ 670,000,000 mph all at the same time!

& yet, we have been lucky enough not to have a major collision with other bodies in space, like huge asteroids & meteoroids slamming into our major cities.

& oh, also, we don’t fall off or fly off the surface due to being held down by gravity.

That sure is incredible to not feel a thing, while moving at such blinding speed.

Something to do with atmosphere or something, something . . .

In conclusion, science backs a HELIOCENTRIC THEORY.

Tell me now, for the issue above, do you lean towards the Bible, or science?

Because both cannot be true. Not in this situation.

The two hypotheses to be compared are:
A. science helps us arrive at the truth and
B. faith helps us arrive at the truth. Which is more reliable?

So many Christians are profoundly science-shy. That’s natural as we have been coached to be science-hostile from the pulpit since day one.

I see,

So GrapeX you're a Christian and you think there is conflict between science and the Bible.

Okay whatever it is, you can have your discussion, just remember this is a christian fellowship thread, we are all christians here and we are to help one another, have a brother-like relationship. That is the main thing we want.

We don't want a you is you, me is me division mentality.

We are all one team in here, regardless of different denominations.

As TS I need to ensure the atmosphere in here is in harmony and not hostile. It's not right anyway. it is not biblical to be unloving in any form.

It's not nice to call any as having poor education.

And you are right, I need to be a class monitor to remove anything or anyone that intend to disrupt the harmony in here.

So please adhere to the rules in 1st page.




PS: Bible is about Christ predominantly, it's not a science book and has never stated the earth is flat.

All I know is that the Holy Bible is focused on the goodness of Almighty God.

If the Holy Bible was indeed about science, perhaps they should introduce the Holy Bible in schools and universities, cause they are surely missing out on the greatest science book ever written.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: May 22 2023, 10:42 AM

I was reading the 4 gospels last month, well, simply because it was Easter & I decided to do some in-depth study, & I discovered something weird.

In Matthew 1:16, it says that, Jacob was the father of Joseph. But in Luke 3:23, it says that, Heli was the father of Joseph.

So was Jacob or Heli, the grandfather of Jesus?

Down the line starting from Abraham, Matthew only has 39 names, but Luke has 56 names!

Furthermore, Luke has Jesus descended from David through his son Nathan, but Matthew’s genealogy goes through Solomon.

And then it gets weirder, in Matthew 1:12 it says : Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, but in Luke 3:27, it says the son of Shealtiel,[e] the son of Neri.

So, was the father Jechoniah or Neri?

Things get even crazier, the genealogies once again diverge after Zerubbabel, with no names in common until Joseph! Wow!

And then, it gets absolutely batshit crazy, because Joseph’s immediate ancestors, his father, paternal grandfather, differ from those in Matthew’s genealogy.

If you don’t believe me, you can write them down:

Book of Luke = Joseph, Heli, Matthat, Levi, etc
Book of Matthew = Joseph, Jacob, Matthan(not a typo), Eleazar, etc

I mean comon! Jesus himself would be asking his dad, is grandpa's name Heli or Yakob?

If you did really bother to write it down, you’ll observe that in Luke, 6 men have nearly the same name:

Matthat, Mattathias (twice), Maath, Maththat, and Mattatha. Coincidence? Maybe.

I mean, if you get the lineage wrong even 1 time, it’s gonna make a whole lot of difference!

But in this case, a few times through 42 generations, & it inevitably becomes an entirely different family tree!

The genealogies are different. How come?

Luke & Matthew tries so hard to link Jesus’s bloodline to David, well, not if it matters though, since if Mary being a virgin, was implanted by Holy Spirit sperm, Joseph would not have been Jesus’s biological father anyway, this renders the Davidic lineage redundant.

Jesus was born of a virgin, and hence can never be a genealogical descendant of Abraham and David.




Also, another weird thing :

Out of the 4 gospels, only Luke makes the astonishing claim that Jesus and John were closely related.

In Luke the angel Gabriel tells Mary,

“And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren.” - Luke 1:36

BUT later when both the babies have grown up, John says,

“I myself did not know him, but [God] who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. '” – John 1:33

Heh?! How come John the Baptist doesn’t know his cousin Jesus?

Luke’s Zechariah is a priest, and we Christians know that the name Zakaria is a priestly name, that appears 7 times in Chronicles.

My suspicion is that, the author of Luke tried to give Mary a Levitical lineage by virtue of her kinship to ‘cousin’ Elizabeth, so as to solve the incompatibility of the genealogies(shown above) in Luke and Matthew.

“In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah,of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.” – Luke 1:5

Looks like the sneaky author of Luke is trying to link Jesus’s bloodline to Aaron’s, from the mother’s side. Quite perplexing.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ques...f-jacob-or-heli



https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ques...know-his-cousin


the phrase; I knew him not, the context has more to do with the one Israel was waiting for. It's Hebraism language, referring to not knowing if He is the Messiah or Son of God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: May 22 2023, 04:52 PM

God ask us to become stupid or unintelligent?


Romans 8:7 (NIV) - The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

As Christians we need to let God's Spirit take over and rule our life, every part of us. Ever since Adam & Eve fell, sin corrupted our entire being, including the mind. It's call the nature of the flesh. Flesh in bible terminology refers to our fallen nature and no it's not referring to piece of meat. Fallen nature means the system of our behavior, our thought processes, mindset, the whole works.

Romans 8 verse 7 explains, the nature of our flesh is hostile to God. It is a fact. This is why you see atheist hates God but they don't understand why, well now you know why.

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 2:10-15 (NIV)

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments

Verse 14 above tells us, the unbelievers cannot accept the things of God and consider them as foolishness. The things of God can only be access and made understood through God's spirit.

The key factor that causes the hostility or opposition to everything of God is sin.

For the christian,even after being saved, it takes time to be changed. Jesus Christ has remove all our sin and we have become a new creation. But because we still live in a corrupted body, we need to go through a sanctifying process, to be change. This is surgically done by God's Holy Spirit via our repentance. Remember only God has the power to change a person. No doomsday preacher can, no matter what he uses to convince. Only God can.

But make no theological mistake, the santifying process does not save us. We are saved by God's grace upon our faith in Christ. That is very clear in the Bible. The sanctifying work is something that God does to us. It's not we who does the work, hence why. Many people until today do not understand this part.

The accurate interpretation of repentance = change of mind. Bible says in Romans 12:2, Be transformed by renewing of our mind. In simple term repentance is to get into agreement with God that everything God say is right. Our mind need to shift in God's direction.

This is why Bible tells us; "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6.

This is not to say we are ask to become stupid or unintelligent. Because if you really are clever or intelligent, you will realize you cannot fight against the most powerful being in the entire cosmos, God. God has all the power, you don't. To submit to God would mean you will go a long way. Believers who flow with God, live powerful life. God fully equip believers who flow with Him. Increase in wisdom and knowledge, even favour with people. Only God can put people to be at the right place and right time and open up seemingly impossible doors. Think about it. You want to go against God or be with Him? For me the choice is too obvious. Am I going God's way because I'm afraid and fearful? No. After living for some time with God I can testify God is a good God. I'm just saving you the headache of making juvenile mistake.

Many people cut short their own life when they think they're better than or above God. Men who profess to be wise became fools. People separated from God are enslaved by the devil. Life is already challenging enough but to be bound in darkness, is unwise.

Let us not fall into that but understand the things of God can only be discern through the spirit according to 1 Corinthians 2:14, nothing to do with human intelligence.

God Bless.

Look, God is not asking us to bury our heads in the sand either! He gave us good brains. We can ask questions. Nothing wrong with that!

A faith with only feel good sermons & lovey-dovey songs, is sadly, a shallow faith. You as the OP should help others to know the Bible better.

Expound on what is presented. Not slap it down like a tyrant.


Anyway, next, we get to the nativity of Jesus (I know it’s not Christmas yet, but I already have many, many, many questions at Easter …)

Out of the 4 gospels, only Luke & Matthew contain baby Jesus stories. The other 2 gospels told stories of the adult Jesus.

So I laid down the nativity stories side by side.

Luke & Matthew do share the same traditions including the names of Jesus’ parents, an angelic annunciation, a miraculous conception, Bethlehem as the place of birth, Galilee as Jesus’ eventual home, association with a star.

However, both Luke & Matthew were contradictory on many points.

I think having copies of Flavius Josephus the historian’s book(s) & other contemporaries would help in cross-referencing. After all, the Roman period was rich in history & records.

Anyway, I’ll list down in number form to make it easier:

1. The story is set in the time of King Herod. - Matthew
The story seems to be set in the time of legate Quirinius, 10 years after Herod’s death. – Luke

"In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be registered, each to his own town." – Luke 2: 2 – 4

This alone would present a lot of problems! If we run into trouble having to pinpoint the exact birth year of Jesus, it will affect everything else further down the timeline.

First issue is the census.

Herod (reign ended 4 BC) and Quirinius (reign started 6 AD) never reigned at the same time.

Which means Herod died 10 years before Quirinius became governor.

The Bible says Joseph, Mary & Jesus returned from Egypt only after it was safe to do so.

“….and remained there until the death of Herod.” – Matthew 2:15 *(By the way, Luke has no trip to Egypt!)

There’s a 10 years difference man! So which year was Jesus born exactly? When was the census conducted?

Yes, there is a historical census recorded during the time of Quirinius.

However, that census and no other Roman census ever required anyone to return to their ancestral homes!

Copious records exist from the time of Caesar Augustus’ reign (27 BCE—14 CE).
These records describe many events during that reign, particularly the most important.
None of them mention anything about an empire wide census. Don't have!
And consider how Luke describes this census: people MUST return to the home of their ancestors.
Consider what the empire would look like in order to accomplish that, throngs of millions migrating all over for the census.
And yet all historical records remain silent on it? How come?

Think about it!

During a time of instability, would the Roman govt want the populace to move around the empire, destabilizing it further by affecting the economy & political stability, just for the sake of conducting a ‘banci rumah’?

Why would anyone care where your ancestors lived 500 years ago?

From Josephus the historian & also Tacitus, and several inscriptions, there indeed was a governor of Syria named Quirinius. This much agrees with Luke.

But whereas Luke presents Quirinius as governing Syria during Herod the Great’s reign, all other sources tell us that his governorship didn’t begin until a decade following Herod’s death!

So much for Luke being the historically accurate account

Both authors list events that, had they actually happened, could not have escaped public record. That means either Matthew or Luke is wrong on this issue.




Second issue is that the massacre of the innocents is not recorded in history. Anywhere!

“Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” – Matthew 2:13

“Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under,” – Matthew 2:16

Matthew (funny that the other 3 gospels are silent) claims Herod killed all boys near Bethlehem who were 2 or under.

No other gospel makes this claim.

There is no evidence outside the Bible of any atrocity like this!

Historians (pls refer to other books other than the Bible. Don’t live in a bubble.) recorded many things about Herod.

We know he was born around 74 BC, that he died in 4 BC, etc.

Astonishingly, the massacre of the innocents is missing from any historical record!

I mean, if something this big & outrageous did happen, obviously it would be important for historians to record this terrible event. Right?

Perhaps the author of Matthew was trying to draw parallels with the baby Moses’ story when Pharoah executed infants.

Was the author trying to curve fit to make it sound like, “A-ha! A prophecy was fulfilled just like the Old Testament predicted!”

The author of Matthew is certainly making up stories

Especially considering how late the book of Matthew was written.

All the NT writers definitely had the advantage of reading the Pentateuch & Torah for inspiration. It’s easier to draw a bullseye around the arrow, no?



2. Mary and Joseph live in Bethlehem. – Matthew
Mary and Joseph live in Nazareth and are brought to Bethlehem by a census. – Luke

So now, Matthew says one thing & Luke says another.

Additionally, if you pull up a map of places like Bethlehem, Nazareth, Jerusalem & Egypt, & given the traveling time needed back in those days, you’ll quickly notice after factoring it all in, that some things mentioned in scripture are impossible to pull off!

“And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,“ - Luke 2: 4-5

Just a side mention, but it is also slightly odd that Bethlehem is called the “City of David,” as this normally refers to Jerusalem.



3. The angel appears to Joseph after Mary has become pregnant. - Matthew
The angel appears to Mary before she becomes pregnant. - Luke

Hmmm……



4. Jesus is born in a house. - Matthew 2:11
Jesus is born in a stable or animal stall. - Luke 2:7

“And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn” – Luke 2:7

Okay lah, hotel, barn, hospital, shop, anywhere also not so important.






(other points later when I go home type. . . . cont)

I completely agree God never indicated we cannot ask questions. What I'm teaching is that in order to flow with God, we need to come into agreement with God's principles.

I'm talking from spiritual pov. I'm talking about coming to terms with God.

What is conflicting you now is head knowledge. I suppose you need answers probably because you're a young Christian with lots of questions.

The grace that God give to me has been a spiritual one. That I can help with most people.

I may not be the right person for you, you need to seek out good apologist for your questions.

I too have questions to God but I'm keeping that aside until I meet Him face to face. I don't think I have the time to indulge all of your questions except one. You can easily find most of the answers on the internet anyway. They are nothing new.


You know not everything is recoded in history. More so, Herod was under Roman empire. Anyone found guilty opposing the emperor in any form (in writing or action)will be punished every severely ie death.

So it's not surprising nobody dared to record that massacre of any leader under Roman empire because obviously this will give them a malicious impression. And because there is no record (saved the gospel) therefore historians long after that time would not know anything about it.

The gospel writers were willing to put their life on the line to record what is true. They were convinced they found the Messiah and Jesus is the Son of God. That makes the difference. That is why the Bible has records of a lot negative things which atheist use to attack to discredit God which they don't think much about.

I'm more than convinced that the bible is credible because of these negative records.

I still have unanswered questions to inconsistencies I encountered reading the nativity, so I would like to continue from where I left off yesterday :


5.
Jesus’ birth is attended by magi. - Matthew
Jesus’ birth is attended by shepherds. – Luke

Okay also lah, maybe a lot of other people not mentioned also visited. No big deal.



6. All Jerusalem is afraid of Jesus, and Judea is unsafe for him. - Matthew
Jesus is warmly received in Jerusalem and recognized as the messiah. - Luke 2:25 - 35

“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;” - Matt 2:3

Ehh?!


7. Mary and Joseph move to Nazareth to avoid Archelaus, tetrarch of Judea. - Matthew
Mary and Joseph return to Nazareth because it is their home. - Luke

Hmmm…..



8. Soon after Jesus’ birth, the family flees to Egypt. - Matthew
Soon after Jesus’ birth, the family travels to Jerusalem for his presentation at the temple - Luke

* Remember when I mentioned Luke has no trip to Egypt? Well, Matthew has no trip to Jerusalem! ref(point 1)


In Matthew, Jesus is born in his home town of Bethlehem, they flee immediately to Egypt, and upon their return from Egypt, they travel directly to Nazareth to avoid the son of Herod, Archelaus.

But in Luke, Mary and Joseph start in their home town Nazareth, travel to Bethlehem for a census, go to Jerusalem, and then return to their home town of Nazareth.

On one hand, one gospel writer says they travelled because of a non-existent census.

On the other hand, another gospel writer says they were on the run, from murderous baby assassins.

Wow! Somebody is certainly telling stories here!

Heck, that is not even the best part.

Hello, Bethlehem is in Judea! If Joseph were a Galilean from Nazareth, with a home there, why would he even think about going back to Judea?

It would be helpful for anyone to try googling for tetrarchy : smaller kings, ruling carved off regions, etc

Also look up the geographical locations of these towns. We can still find ancient maps from the Roman period. Look at the path taken, time needed, etc to see if it all makes sense.

I'm sorry to admit, but these discrepancies between the 2 infancy narratives, cannot be reconciled with history outside the NT.

Mind you, I didn't even touch on the subject of a moving star, finally stopping on top of a building. I'll stop here.

Both authors of Matthew & Luke list events that, had they actually happened, could not have escaped public record. Quite baffling indeed

I have another question unknownwarrior, not crucial to salvation larrr, but still, have been wondering . Been at the back of my mind for some time, but didn’t bother asking anybody about it.

Regarding measuring righteousness in the Bible.

1. Story of Lot




So Abraham, from haggling 50, down to 45 down to 30 and finally down to 10 righteous people, persuades God to finally save Lot & his family from the sinful cities of Sodom & Gomorrah.

This next passage is when God’s 2 angels , disguised as 2 men, cop a lot of attention :


"But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house.

And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight?

Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.

Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please.

Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” - Genesis 19: 4 - 8


This is highly disturbing!

For the sake of protecting his visitors, Lot is willing to offer his 2 precious virgin daughters to the men.

By the words ‘wicked’, ‘virgin’ & ‘do as you please’, I can safely assume that sexual assault is what is meant here.

Tell me, how is Lot, as a father, be considered as righteous?



And then in the next passage:



This is even more disturbing!

His 2 daughters, even being virgins, were willing to commit incest with Lot.

And if that wasn’t bad enough, they committed non-consensual (rape) incest!

Argue this from any cultural context, but this is still wrong!

Now how can Lot’s 2 daughters be considered as righteous?

God said that he was willing to save 10 righteous people.

Well, minus the 2 future sons-in-law who refused to leave, Lot’s wife who turned into a pillar of salt, only 3 people managed to get out safely.

And yet, none of the 3 were righteous!

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2. Story of Job


In the book of Job, it says:

- Job was blameless & upright. Feared God. Turned away from evil.
- 7 sons 3 daughters.
- Possessed 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, 500 oxen, 500 donkeys
- Many servants

Then God decided to use Job as a type of wager, in his gamble with Satan.

Except for his wife & his body being afflicted with painful sores, none of the above possessions were spared!

In the final chapter, God finally restores Job & blessed Job with more than what he had in the beginning.

Job was blessed with :

- 14000 sheep, 6000 camels, 1000 oxen, 1000 donkeys
- Another 7 sons & 3 daughters.
- (No mention of new servants, but to God servants are worthless shaite anyway.)

Here’s my question, while cattle & servants are worthless shaite in God’s sight, are the 10 children’s worth = lowly cattle?

“And in all the land there were no women so beautiful as Job's daughters.” – Job 42:15

Yes, God gave Job 3 more daughters who were more beautiful than his first 3.

Big deal!

They’re even named Jemimah, Keziah & Keren-happuch.

But tell me, would you have forgotten daughters 1 – 3, whom you brought up with love & care, no matter how beautiful daughters 4 - 6 were?

As parents, how would you feel? Kids are irreplaceable!

And I sure as hell have no idea how Job’s wife could give birth to another 10 kids. Maybe Job married more wives.

Who wrote the book of Job? No idea The author is unknown & some scholars even claim that it’s older than the book of Genesis.


Lets be honest here, how many of us Christians are willing to be subjected to what Job went through?

We would tell ourselves that we’re glad God & Satan hasn’t trained their guns on me!(yet)

The Book of Job does not paint a very attractive picture of the God of the Bible; he has treated Job and his family rather shabbily.

Indeed, the moral of the story seems to be that God is ultimately indifferent to the suffering of humans.

It’s fairly common that believers don’t notice the negative aspects of favourite Bible stories, those downsides that actually wipe out the values we're supposed to advance

Why aren't we as Christians stunned?


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petpenyubobo

Hi,

I have no idea what you tagged me for, but I have been a Christian for decades, heard thousands of hours of sermons & have read the Bible from cover to cover many times. No where does the Bible mention about reincarnation. The Christians faith is linear. It's not cyclical. You only get this one life, then after that, it's the afterlife.

Regards