This is a question that I'm not sure that I could find the answer in elitistjerks.com because of the number of pages going on in some of their longer lasting threads (Enhancement Shammy thread is 101 pages long, GG.)

When to use Windfury Totem and when to use Grace of Air Totem. I've not followed the changes pre-BC and even during BC so I'm not sure whether the concerns below are still valid or not.

From the above post, it's in the following scenarios :

Windfury
A DPS warrior is in your group - Will the 20% proc rate cause issues i.e. the crits raising their threat that they pull aggro off a prot warrior who is not in the same group?
A warrior who is tanking is in your group - The 20% proc will increase his threat more? If so, by how much (roughly)?
A warrior is in your group - Repetitive statements.
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group - Why must be more than 1 sword rogue?

Grace of Air
A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty) - druids do not get buffed by Windfury but by Grace of Air
A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components - because of the 20% proc of Windfury is less uncertain than Grace of Air steady bonus?
Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group - Hunters get more damage done with GoA because of agility?

I hear different viewpoints about when to use the above from different parties. Wanted to hear from those who are leading raids or helping with raids. Melee love Windfury Totems but Raid Leaders seem to prefer Grace of Air for tanks to learn fights better and to hold boss better (WF procs, more headache for the tanks to hold aggro). Melee are to have a slow offhand for Windfury - how slow is slow?

I'm looking for different viewpoints and what you guys do both as a raid leader and raider to manage these 2 totems. Especially in the 25-mans where most of the boss mobs are dropping the aggro list.

tanks getting agi totem for new encounters is mainly for mitigation, not threat (armor and dodge)
windfury on prot warriors does increases their threat considerably (much more than agi) over time as each proc increases AP (swings harder) and more swings are generated which means, more rage, and more threat.

mutilate rogues will prefer agi totem over windfury. combat rogues will generally prefer windfury as they dont have poison talents to ultilize both hands + agi totem buff.
and i believe you got the wrong info, melee are to have a slow mainhand, NOT offhand for windfury. you would want to have a fast offhand to generate more procs and the swings from each procs comes from your mainhand, not offhand.

and for dps warr to have wf while prot warr not having wf, its not an issue so long dps and prot warriors arent idiots. and besides, its post tbc, you got pallies for BOS threat EZ-mode. again, assuming ur tank isnt an idiot.

'your grp' - refering to yourself as shaman?

Given that your warrior is given a little bit of time to build aggro, he shouldnt need wf totem to help him with aggro (assuming his ability cycle and gear is ok). DPS are supposed to adjust to their tanks aggro, if they crit too much just hold back a bit.

i think shamans are more useful in other grps other then MT grp. we bring 3 resto shaman to raids and 1 goes to melee grp (wf), other 2 spread up btw casters and healers (woa n ms)

dont think we ever put shamans with hunters or feral druids. heroism benefit not as beneficial to them as compared to others

Enh shammy is alwaz in dps group = WF totem. Nvr a reason to use agi. Generally the idea where threat is an issue is drop TA totem first for the first 10%-20% then followed by wf.

i've nvr started learning the encounter with GOA totem. Is highly unlikely u will get 2 shotted. Its alwaz about the tps u can dish out!

if theres a muti rogue, agi > WF. and since you mentioned enh sham, enh shams cant use wf themselves, therefore agi would benefit them too.

Cheers guys.

lowzi : Actually, it was a cut and paste from that elitistjerks' post. I don't play a shaman but a Shadow Priest.

I usually do both. Windfury Totem buff lasts 8 sec per "pulse". I would plant WF totem, then immediately replace it with an GoA totem. When the buff nears its end, just repeat. Or, in threat sensitive fights, put Tranquil Air totem while WF totem buff is counting down.

Of course, it is mana intensive. But if your raid has no Enhancement Shaman and is using a Restoration Shaman to buff a melee group, he would have more than enough mana to spare.

u'll nvr find muti rogue in raiding. And it is very clear that enh shammies are there to buff melee dps not themselves. WF is alwaz the totem to put down. Nothing else.

muti rogues exist even in guild that farms bt/hyjal. as they are very viable and at some cases stronger than even the revered combat dagger rogues in certain situations.

the only real requirement for mutilate rogue to operate is that the targets are poisonable, that clearly isnt an issue in TBC aside a few exceptions (lootreaver, the weapons in tk for examples)

sure, it is clear that enh shams are to buff melee dps, but they themselves does produce a significant ammount of dps too, even without them agi buffing themselves. doesnt hurt to buff them along while they are say buffing feral druids (OMGKITTYMEWMEW?) and mutilate rogues which uses agi totem more. hell, even combat daggers could does benefit from agi totems as WF proc has been constantly nerfed and its proc rate is very subjective at best. unlike warriors that hit damn hard for their white, rogues dont.

if you really want wf that bad, you can have the sham to refer what ray123 mentioned. and no, WF is clearly NOT always the air totem to be laid. agi is one of them, grounding is another (so long the raiding encounter allows, eg: maiden of pervert) and WOA totems (casters)

dont forget shams dont only buff melees in TBC, with heroism/bloodlust modding cast timers/channeling timers to a very horrendous ammount, adding up with WOA, you can turn a shitty as mage to a damn meter topper with just that 2 buff alone. (obviously its an exaggerated statement, but you get the idea. and yes, i clearly know you cant be perma bloodlusted/heroismed, but hey, if ur willing to do it, you can keep swapping shams once a sham is done doing it, for mega win rofl. although im not sure if its possible anymore as they disabled raid moving during combat some few patches ago IINM)

Discounting the occasional need to use other totems for specfic encounters, the main n only dps totem in melee group is WF. I believe this is what the OP is asking for.There really is no argument here. The dmg gained from wf will exceed the agi totem. This is a stated fact in elitist jerks forums after WF hotfix. Dmg output from 2 rogues + 1 dps warrior will exceed from the gains of the agi totem. If the case is out the very rarely used muti rogues than probably. But the huge portion of raiding rogues are still combat.

main totem for melee dps group is true, but by no means its the only dps totem for a melee group. and yes, im answering based on what the op is asking:


so yeah, theres the argument. as i said, if you got mutilate rogues around, agi will no doubt be better, or even argubly combat rogues that are poison specced (only viable to non-dagger combat rogues, claw spec excels most with this setup, as agi compliments their 5% crit very well.)

why is this even valid in the first place is due to the ap gained from wf buff isnt anywhere as scaled upwards from pre-bc values, the dmg inc per white after wf buff is applied isnt as drastic as you'd see in pre bc, not to mention the proc-after proc mechanism. that is granted that wf proc, the proc rate is also questionable at best. and thats all post-bc pre-wf totem nerf. now wf totem is facing nerf bat, making agi more viable than it was (instead of the clear-cut omfg wf is liek uber 1337!!!111one)

mutilate rogues arent as rare as you may think, many top guild's rogues spec it mainly because combat daggers are depressing. i personally spec it cuz i like assassination more (i raided with SF daggers prebc and still top meters anyways so no reason for me to change) and i cant stand the fact of backstabbing for just 1 CP. sealfate bloodsplatter proc sound also makes it very enjoyable over com daggers. the only damn exception to that is rogues all going swords because the best rogue weap in game is the legendary blades from illidan. should you have access to it, no doubt ur a sword rogue. dagger rogues cant be anywhere close to dual legendary SET blades that has a haste proc bonus.

=edit=
oops misplaced quote box

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Sep 20 2007, 11:04 AM

dagger rogues especialyl mutilate dagger rogues are like destro locks...
do they dish out high dps.. yes argueable, given the way the encounter works... are they consistent? no... are they the best optimal raid spec especially when learning new encounters? no... do ppl still take them for raids? yeah... but they are in the minority bracket.


and i believe that most ppl are not using combat swords to aim for the twin blades of azzinoth. most would just tkae the sword then respec accordingly. combat swords are used bcos they provide the most consistent dps for any encounter, especially given the nature of how most encounters are now where there are knockbacks, positionings, moving away from danger spots etc

This post has been edited by sets84: Sep 20 2007, 11:16 AM

Its not a nerfbat, it was a hotfix that has taken place quite sometime ago. Yes by no means is WF the only available dps totem available but it is THE totem to use in almost every boss encounter i can think of.

Barring clearing BT and having any gear accessible to use, combat is still the way to go in pve progression. My guild rogues n other guild frens have varied their spec and most in the end still take combat swords. The difference in muti spec was such a blatant difference.

yes they are the minority bracket, and com daggers are still superior due to combat potency and the fact that they do not have poison requirements. but i have to say they CAN be very consistant if they work really hard for it. the only inconsistancy from the spec is luck based from SF proc, but same could be said to combat dagger's combat potency proc. just beg to differ in your otherwise clear and correct statement.

---

Added on September 20, 2007, 11:59 amgo through the shaman changes, there have been few nerfbats + hotfix/fixes that you mentioned. if it were the WF way back in the old days, even i would agree with you that WF is the only damn wind totem for anyone. proc after proc is just too darn tasty for anyone to pass
and the proc rate % was also much higher than now.

and no, combat daggers by far > combat swords. if your gonna use combat swords as a medium of measurement, even mutilate can beat them VERY consistantly excluding encounters that cannot be poisoned. daggers just simply scales WAY better than swords do.

the only damn exception to that is the twin blades of azzinoth. that thing is by far the most superior rogue weapon, so good, its also very damn useful in pvp even with the lack of stam/resil/pvp standard speeds.

in your raids/rogues it could be different perhaps because it isnt easy to cycle through muti's finishers/CP's. its MUCH MUCH harder to cycle through muti sequence than you do on combat daggers/swords. and there is no absolute cycling sequence either as it has a variable of 2 or 3 cp generated via mutilate.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Sep 20 2007, 11:59 AM

Dude the hotfix was ages ago. No procs on specials. I'm not stating the old wf.

im not saying you are either, as there were numerous hotfixes and nerfs. one would have to go through the whole patch list (or you specifically pointing which hotfix/nerf, like right now) to guess which one ur refering to.

=edit=
oh and this is all due to alli qq'ing much
now that alli got shams, i dont see blizz continue nerfing them now (aside the last nerf), funny aint it? lol

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Sep 20 2007, 01:35 PM

Sorry to interrupt but when i was still playing shammy during my old Gruul days i could do more DPS as an enha over muti rogues but i couldnt win combat rogues in DPS. Combat rogues as in both daggers and swords

I had tried putting GoA and WF on different times just to see how much can i catch up with the combat rogues. GoA doesnt really help me much as it only increases my crit %

My group is usually 2 rogues+1 war+1 shaman+1 anything depends on attendance

WF clearly can help buff DPS better than GoA and a shaman buffing himself for DPS isnt going to be very helpful. If you can raid as an enha during my times then you would be consider lucky so do please play your role properly by bringing benefits to the raid instead of trying to increase your own DPS

Of course if your guild rogues in raid are all muti rogues then GoA is more appropriate

i can pull over 1k dps over a 5min sustained fight during my kara days while having even few blue items remaining on my item slots (lol assassination dungeon items)

and im pulling hate easily from time to time with ~800 TPS
if ur doing as much dmg as i am, ur guaranteed to pull aggro and die as tanks in kara lvl yields around 700-1.1k TPS MAX over a 5min sustained. difference is i have vanish, you dont.

my point? your rogues cant mutilate properly letting an enh sham overtaking them.

enhancement shammies might be able to top dps at the start of their raid days maybe....
but end game raids, i think they'll be shut out by the top four any day

blame blizz itemization, and their talent specs. but on the bright side, enh shams and retardins recieving mega buffs (shamans confirmed too, and even got a few interesting talent fixes thats shown)