I often read on China. Let me divert a bit here

China themselves admit they are still far behind in jet engine technology if compared to USA, Great Britain, Russian and France.

Let see China fighter J-10, J-15, J-20 and J-31. What is sragging them? Jet engine

Even China developed their own WS-10 jet engine which is derived from American F 119, the WS-10 jet engine still have problem until today.

China all the while been using moatly Saturn-30 from Russia. (Saturn-30 are use in many MIGs29, 31, and SU 27, SU 30, SU35, SU57

What i am trying to say here is China still find it very challenging and very tough to get a jet engine the can equal to GE F404, GE F414, P & W F119 and Saturn-30

Both GE F404 and F414 powered the F18D hoenet and F18E superhornet respectively. P&W F119 powered the F15.

China with access to american engines and coupled with china technology still need a lot a lot of time to make a good jet engine. One china aviation researcher said it takes a long time to perfect it.

Hence what make us think by buying the Blue Print one can built a modern stealth warship of current generation.???

I read the navy requirements in certain publications. When you have politikus who knew nuts about naval vessels and weapon sistem to decide, what decision we see???😁

The navy requested for ESSM, they know it well that they need it. Remember the Naval officer, Captain or XO are the one that going to operate the vessels.Not politikus.

I do not think your reasons are the main reasons. The naval officers are also involved in system selection from the 1st stage and i bet they know what they are doing better then all of us here.

They try to do away with French weapon system. The Thales Smart S-Mk2 is the prime radar use if ESSM is considered. Thats why those involved were frustrated. You pay for 5 star but get 4 star accomodation.

The Indonesian MoD is in talk negotiating for the procurement of another type frigate for General Purpose (GP) role.

Swipe for more pic.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTWFwzVBhN5/

This post has been edited by azriel: Sep 19 2021, 09:54 AM

My tought is...
ID is collecting all 5K-6K ton frigate, exploring what benefit they can get before they decide which one or two can give most benefit for them not only for TNI but their local marine industry too.

This post has been edited by Lampuajaib: Sep 19 2021, 10:28 AM

So what radar do you assume Maharajalela will get if it is not the thales SMART-S mk2?

The thales SMART-S mk2 is the radar offered by Naval Group, it is what fitted to the Maharajalela now even with VL MICA. It is what fitted to Egyptian Gowinds. It is fully integrated into the naval group PSIM (Panoramic Sensors and Intelligence Module)

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/0...ndria-shipyard/

this iteration of the Damen MCM was designed on the Tun Fatimah Hull.


But personally I am against 1 mission only MCM ships. Future MCM systems are all modular so why still waste money to have dedicated specialised MCM ships? You could do it off OSVs supported by multiple small multi role ships.

The plan and idea for the gowind is good. The execution is a total failure.

But now for LMS batch 2 and Kedah Batch 2, the plan and idea is already a failure and will be a waste of money.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 19 2021, 12:00 PM

If for MMEA I would prefer a fully naval spec 4,000 tonne 140m OPV like this ship. Can a commercial spec ferry based makassar class play the ramming game with chinese coast guard OPVs and survive?


2 ships for 90 billion korean won, or 77 million dollars. 1 ship 38.5 million dollars or RM161.7 million.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/0...st-guard-fleet/






I am not comparing them to the Kedah. I was comparing it to the Gowind. Just a statement that those Brazilian ships are based on the same Meko A100 design as the Kedah.

Personally i would prefer the Type 31 for TLDM lekiu and kasturi replacement too.



Future MCM systems are mostly modular. It does not need dedicated ships. So to clean up a large minefield, a large ship like an OSV as the mothership plus smaller ships (like my proposed LMS alternative) to carry UUVs and USVs to tackle multiple suspected mines further from the mothership at the same time is the way to go.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 19 2021, 02:52 PM

We can.

ships, stealthy or not uses normal diesel or gas turbine engines. Just buy them.

Combat management system. just buy them.

weapons, missiles, torpedoes. just buy them.

If you are not going to reinvent the wheel to recreate every nut and bolt from scratch, it can be done.

On our gowinds, buying the blueprint is not wrong (if the original blueprint is wrong, even the Egyptian gowind would be wrong), our technical and manufacturing capability is not wrong. It is the other things. You need to differentiate them.

what is wrong is the constant need to change and add new things after the project has started.

what is wrong is the government inability to firmly do decisions on timely manner

plus plenty other things. but that does mean that we cannot build a stealth warship.





also why should we want to build them locally?

just think of it, if we spend billions on the ship, do we want thousands of europeans feel the benefits, or do you want thousands of local families getting the economic benefits from building the ship locally?

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 19 2021, 12:03 PM

If they want to do rojak, let them do rojak.

Malaysia can emulate the good things they do, and not touch the not so good things they are doing.

For example, they take arrowhead, we must not be shy to take arrowhead type 31 too because it is a good ship and will strengthen our ties with UK.

But doing the rojak? no thank you.

Basically a bigger arafura,river class,lmV.
Thought haven't heard much how far along are they in trying to shoehorn MCM & hydrological equipment in those ship.



It's a rebooted not a 2nd batch. Kedah & chinese LMS is BNS product. Doubt any politicians brave enough to give anything to BNS anymore.

Technically the gov are firm in her decision
That is to take BNS side and put in MICA for example.

Doesn't mean ATM are going to take it lying down and not fight tooth & nails to get them what they really wanted.

What is wrong is not gov need to be firms. What is wrong is the way acquisition is done in the first place.The evaluation shouldn't be done by some dictatorship like politicians who has limited understanding of the subject matter to decide base on his emotions alone.

Decision should probably be done in a birocratic way like the Aussie. Have a comitee staff with not just ATM, but MITI, wisma Putra and so on to evaluate all the difference proposal. Give marks to how each platforms perform in it military usefulness, industrial trade off and platforms which tick the most box win.

Firm is in doing decisions.

When ringgit exchange rate fell, when BNS needs the money to to pay for all the changes requested, MINDEF under matsabu cannot decide anything and the project just grinded to a halt. and has been idle for more than 2 years now.

even now the government decision on the gowinds is still not clear.

whatever you call it lah, even if you give it to other people. but the basic plan and the TLDM requirements is not the best capability for the money that is going to be spent.

This post has been edited by alexz23: Sep 19 2021, 03:41 PM

.
To be fair to mat Sabu, Put yourself in his shoe, the cost had increase by 40%, and retrofitting the ship to fullfil RMN wishlist would shoot the cost even higher. Tell the rakyat that it's all his predecessor fault does nothing as people would say, he's the menteri now,fix it.Unfortunately for him no easy solution are found, like for example let cancelled the some ship like gagah samudera, or let's not arms it like kedah. Not helping that At that point in time, the rakyat mood is more towards pacifism.He need some kind of justification to tell the already angry rakyat why more money need to be dump in. Not really the easiest thing to do.

As for Sabri, he was quite lucky the ' intrusion' of PLAAF, the increasing dickness of CCP & the increasing western present in this conflict give him the needed justification to pump money into it as people wanted a ' fast ' solution. And LCS is the fastest solution.

We are a democracy afterall and public opinion does matter. Even today if you check out YouTube or other SosMed. the LCA/LIFT isn't exactly a popular things in the public mind. I think selling few big ticket item like ID are doing rather than plentiful of cost effective solution is a much easier sells to the public. In ID the bebas aktif doctrines is loosing popularity and thus the recent changes in their gov attitudes.

Like i said public opinion matters.

No one getting high looking at lots of missiles boat FAC and LCA. All they see is ATM bringing a parang to a gun fight.

If you give them the option of 24 FAC + 36 LCA vs 8 missiles Corvette + 24 used hornet. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which option they would ticks.

You can built one in Naval Group France and 5 in Boustead. Give local engineers and technician the hands on skill learning from Naval Group engineervactually building the ship

Then built the balance 5 here. How much it cost you extra of building one in Naval Group to ensure success of fhe project ? Total project cost is RM$9.12 billion, not a small sum.

I bet ST Marine Engineering Spore is a much experience and higher technology yard . Now they even built future Singapore destroyer and LPD (Helicopter carrier)

When building Formudable class, the 1st unit was built in Naval Group with ST Maribe engineers there. The balance 5 in Sppre.

I bet they also take the opportunity to exposed and learn as much.

And all 6 Formidable class complete on time in service for years 😁

Even china admit the main disadvantage of J-10, J-15, J-20, FC-31 is reliable high thrust turbofan jet engines. They have been depending on Saturn-30 and now developed the WS-10 which still derived from P & W F119. WS-10 still need years to be perfected.

I hope we can learn from China attitude. Yes you can built figher but if you do not have reliable engines liked F404, F414 , F100-220 or saturn 30 you cannot keep your jet in the sky.

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 19 2021, 05:01 PM

Who says being a minister is easy?

If he cannot do and make decisions, why do you become a defence minister?

coming from a party called "amanah", he should have known how big the responsibility is.

and what did he do? he didn't decide on anything!

why we didn't do that is water ubder the bridge.

and china attitude of their fighters and their engines has nothing that can relate to building ships.

Yup.

At the end maharajalela is just a CKD exercise. Similar to how proton build their saga & wira. While China are doing design & development like proton did Gen2 and CamPro.

Nobody will say being a leader is easy.

Ask any top leaders or ceo, they tell you leadership is never easy., when you are the decision maker.

It is not easy to make better weighted decision but when one take the oath as the ceo or minister, he has to be prepared to make decisions be it right or wrong.

If one is not prepared to make decisions then you are not suitable to be the leader

This post has been edited by jwst1313: Sep 19 2021, 06:44 PM