u gotta keep knee behind toe man. its not a rule, its to prevent u from screwing your knees man. now u r not doing BW yet, when u go above BW like 1.5x or 2x, your knees will pop out if u dont do knees behind toes. unless ur body structure allows that.. or go bellow parallel enough la. i do below parallel, i cant go A2G with wide stance.

http://www.google.com.my/search?hl=en&q=squatting+deep&meta=

http://www.musclewithattitude.com/readTopic.do?id=1084977

I will have to disagree completely with what you have said, about going deep kills joints. It's been repeated over and over again, it's like a powerlifters and olympic lifters mantra, go deep. But then again, you're a bb'er so I guess principals clash there.

I kinda agree with eldan, goin too low (on narrow stance) hurts my knees.

and i understand what jones is trying to convey...
but i still think it's impossible to keep knees behind toes on narrow stance.
It's just impossible to balance.... but for wider stance, then yes, i always keep my knees
behind the toes.

I'm just following what carl said about squatting being natural...
it's just not natural to keep knees behind toes on narrow stance.
Jones' squat is considered a sumo squat to me.... it's so wide, even carl went "whoah, so wide ah?".
That's why he's been able to keep his knees behind toes.

totally no. u can do knees behind toes with narrow stance. i already show u that day =.="

Betul ke?
Make a vid and show again can?

even if it's possible, i can't do it.... i'm not THAT flexible.

then learn and stretch to be flexible. ronnie coleman can do split legs. where the balls touches the ground and legs on both sides.

YES!! FINALLY!! SOME SIGN OF INTELLIGENT LIFE IN H&F!!!

lol jk.. about time we had these kinds of discussion...

personally, i do agree with pizza.. mainly cuz i lean more towards the powerlifter style of training and technique.. IMO, knees going past ur toes on squats are inevitable.. mainly u read articles telling u that knees going past toes is bad cuz they're afraid ppl would eventually let the weight stray forward.. so to ensure that everyone sits back during the squat they say try ur best to get ur knees behind ur toes.. kings form on the squat would not be perfect, but i would give it a 70-80% mark..

and regarding his form on bench, there are a few things that has to be clarified first.. first of all, what are u trying to achieve? bodybuilding or powerlifting? sounds to me u're trying to go for maximum size not max strength..

for max size, i think u should listen to the others here for BB form.. for i'm not sure.. but AFAIK u want max muscle contraction etc.. and at that weight, u're struggling to push the weight up, hence u won't be able to get max contraction as u were just trying to complete the lift rather then benefit from that set.. and if u're not in control of that weight, and wanna go that wide, u'll end up farking urself up..

and as for max strength, that would be a totally different ball game man.. ur form on that vid if for the sake of strength WOULD screw up ur elbows and RC.. cuz u're elbows looks too wide.. read up on competition bench form for powerlifters.. that would be a start..

and i would also advice u to reflect on ur goals and stick to it.. if u're out for size, do it the right way, for strength? do it the right way too.. madcow 5x5 is a strength programme.. hence u should do the big 3 powerlifter style(cept for squat where u can choose between sumo or oly squat).. that's my opinion..

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/power-lifting/

the link above is my bible to the big 3.. this should be able to clarify the PL style of lifting and research done on it..

This post has been edited by carlsuen: Jul 17 2007, 02:57 PM

agree or disagree with me is up to u guys..but ive tried both..and going deeps kills my ankles and knees...thats my experience..and arnold goes all the way down as well...but according to his bodybuilding bible, he advises to wear knee guard..and i assume majority of us dont...so its up to u guys...go deep or injury free .. its just my opinnion

thanks all for the input, appreciate it...
i will do what's best for me...

true that on the knee wraps.. i think at some point when i eventually start to approach 405s.. i would consider the use of a belt and knee wraps.. u have to take care of ur body well with form like that.. hence individual research is so important.. u can't expect to come to a forum and emerge full of knowledge.. it is a lifelong learning process.. and there are some things, especially details that only u can understand and remember after doing ur own reading.. not by just reading and hearing on other ppls testimonial that this exercise A is good and exercise B is not good, there are always 2 sides of the coin..

---

Added on July 17, 2007, 3:05 pmlet have a discussion here eldan.. from a BB POV, do u do half squats free weight? and if u do, do u go max weight?

cuz IMO, if u're going max weight on half squats or at least parellel, i think u'd end up screwing ur knees EVEN MORE!!

but i think there are a tonne of other ways to train ur legs other then squat.. and something tells me u don't half squat..

This post has been edited by carlsuen: Jul 17 2007, 03:05 PM

u see...the problem is....i try to carry as heavy as i can with 100% form...so my max squats is around 100-120kg depending on mood + perfect form...and if i feel pressure on my knees..id stop squatting and move on to other exercise ASAP...and my squats i vary...sometimes i half squats some times i full squats...

i really don't know much about BB form.. but i really have to comment, someone said in an earlier post that max muscle contraction is the most important in any lift for a BB.. but IMO, as a BB, most of the time, rep ranges would be above 8.. and for me it would seem impossible to keep to perfect form as such high rep ranges depending on my 8RM or 12RM or higher.. hence the use of lower weight.. as weight carried in the gym is not as important to a BB then total perfect form..

have u read up on the link that i just posted? the sticky on the squat.. only half the article is on full squat.. so filter thru what u wanna read..

i'm not trying to criticise ur opinion or way of training but i would like to invite u to think critically on this..

cuz alot of times, we wanna go for heaviest weight we can carry.. y? a few days ago, a reg forumer said and i quote "bodybuilding IS an ego game"

I dunno man...
i'm just following blindly...
but i'll tell you this...

madcow's 5RMs made my chest grow way more than when i was benching 10-12 reps

that's y i'm saying don't follow blindly.. y not spend more time reading up rather then posting unneccesarily on every thread? pls don't take this the wrong way k.. i'm trying to help u here..

there should be a sign in the Gym that says Please check in ur EGO and..or No EGO pass this point...there is a reason why i never post up how heavy i carry..cause weights its not important..BB is about symmetry and shape and size...not how strong u are..u wanna compare how strong u are..go join iron man or worlds strongest man contest or something...but like i said..everyone have different training styles...1 way doesnt suit everyone..

exactly.. which is y i would like to ask all BBs opinion here.. don't u think u would be benefitting more from lesser weight but perfect mind-muscle connection?

and if u're not doing ur heaviest weight? then there is a lesser chance of joint injuries etc.. right?

would like comments from other experienced BBs too..

No... i'm not taking this the wrong way. Seriously, i'm benefiting from this.

what i'm trying to say is... I dunno how i ended up starting madcow,
but madcow has given me more size than when i was doing moderately high reps (10 to 12).
This is very contradictory to bb where i should be lifting lighter and feel every muscle contraction.
I dunno why madcow works better, i can't explain it.

and you should see jones... just 5,6 weeks into madcow, his chest exploded

yah explodes it does... but later on i think u need to work on muscle symmetry or what not.. which i totally have no idea about..

but if u're unsure of something, u must go and research on it.. to maximise the benefits..