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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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prophetjul
post Sep 9 2019, 05:56 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 9 2019, 11:30 AM)
Priests too. They are married to the Church tongue.gif. As for Tradition, definitely not everything from the Jews but from the Apostles and early Christians tongue.gif. We are not Judaizers after all.
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All the redeemed are considered of royal priesthood. Your popes and separated priests are not tradition. It's made in the pagan capital of Rome.

The Apostles are predominantly Jews. Jews will NEVER encourage idols, let alone idol worship.
Who is Judaizing? We are refering to the traditions of GOD.
Idolatry as the RCC encourages is against God's commands. Or are you considering this as Judaizing?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 9 2019, 06:04 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 10 2019, 01:37 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 10 2019, 11:53 AM)
The Catholic Church affirms the existence of a common or universal priesthood of all the baptized laity. But this does not exclude the existence of a ministerial priesthood. In the OT book of Exodus for example, just a few verses after the Israelites are called a “kingdom of priests,” one discovers a distinct order of men who are considered priests apart from the people. In the NT, Jesus continued the role of the ministerial priesthood by giving authority to His apostles and their successors to forgive sins and to offer sacrifice (no longer the animal sacrifices as in the old but of the new sacrifice "do this in remembrance of Me".

Having images in churches is not the same as idolatry as shown many times before.
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The ministerial priesthood was for Israel. Do you have the temple?
In fact, where does the pope appear in scriptures? Nought! Don't go onto your dubious pope Peter!
The Levitical priests were after the order of Aaron. There is no instruction to pass the Levitical order to gentiles.

Paul, in the NT refers to elders of the church in their local vicinities. There is no instruction to be governed by a central system such as your pagan Romish system of hierarchy.

Jesus gave authority to celebrate the bread and wine to any believer, in remembrance of Him and His sacrificial death. There is none given to 'priests' to celebrate this. Neither confession needs to be through the sinful priests.

Idolatry is as such

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

QUOTE
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 10 2019, 02:20 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 11 2019, 01:43 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 11 2019, 12:05 PM)
It is the old ceremonial laws which points to the fulfilment of Christ's sacrifice and institution of the New Testament which are no longer to be observed, not the moral laws such as the 10 Commandments. Are you like UW saying that even the 10 Commandments no longer applies?

Thank you for showing that scripture has presbyteros, diakonos. Question. Who ordained them?

The earliest organization of the Church in Jerusalem was according to most scholars similar to that of Jewish synagogues, but it had a council or college of ordained presbyters (Greek: πρεσβύτεροι elders[8]). In Acts 11:30[9] and Acts 15:22, we see a collegiate system of government in Jerusalem though headed by James, according to tradition the first bishop of the city. In Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains presbyters in the churches he founded.

The term presbyter was often not yet clearly distinguished from the term overseer (ἐπίσκοποι episkopoi, later exclusively used as meaning bishop), as in Acts 20:17, Titus 1:5–7[10] and 1 Peter 5:1.[11][12][13] The earliest writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the Didache and the First Epistle of Clement for example, show the church used two terms for local church offices—presbyters (seen by many as an interchangeable term with episcopos or overseer) and deacon.

In Timothy and Titus in the New Testament a more clearly defined episcopate can be seen. We are told that Paul had left Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete to oversee the local church (1Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5). Paul commands them to ordain presbyters/bishops and to exercise general oversight, telling Titus to "rebuke with all authority" (Titus 2:15).

That to me is more synonymous with Catholic teaching that authority is passed down from the Christ to the apostles downwards to whomever they ordain, aka distinct roles, rather than the Protestant concept.
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You should give a reference to your posting since its cut and paste!.

Yes, there is hierarchy of bishops and deacons. That is about it. However, all are priests unto the Lord.
However, there is no indication of a centralized government like the RCC with the pope as its head. It appears to be the local church as in Jerusalem, etc. Peter was not the first pope as RCC likes to indicate.

Further on the qualifications of the episkopos, (elder,bishop)

QUOTE
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil


QUOTE
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.



WHY then does the RCC forbid their bishops to be married?
prophetjul
post Sep 11 2019, 04:36 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 11 2019, 02:30 PM)
"Do this in remembrance of Me" and the authority to forgive or retain sins were given only to the Apostles and not every believer, thus only the episkopos and presbyteros have this authority as they were the select ordained by the Apostles. And certainly this authority was not meant to be only at the first century but meant to last until the end of time until Christ returns again.

The Apostle Paul does not say that a Bishop must be the husband of a wife, but insists upon the expression "one wife." Had he meant that it was necessary to have a wife, he would have been violating the law himself. In the early Church, owing to the scarcity of single men eligible for the Priesthood, married men who wished to be ordained could be accepted provided they had not been married twice. Those presenting themselves must have been the husband of but one wife. That is all that the text means. Catholic Bishops and Priests do not violate that law. A law forbidding a man to have had more than one wife does not order him to have one; nor is it violated by a man who has never had a wife at all. However, as Christianity grew and vocations became more plentiful, single men only were accepted, and had to remain celibates, according to the advice of Paul.

Your question has been answered over and over again. The RCC does not forbid their bishops to be married. It is a vow they themselves voluntarily make.

Catholic priests do not wish to be only natural. They wish to be supernatural. Paul was human, but he did not marry. And like Paul, Catholic priests wish to centre their interests in Christ and share their hearts with no one else. Meantime, they are not forbidden to marry as human beings. They are forbidden as Priests. Prior to their choice of the Priesthood, every Priest could have chosen marriage instead had he wished.

On the practical reason, I can see why this is also a good case for celibacy. If priests are married, there might be grumblings of unfairness when it comes to attention to their own family members compared to the flock which they are supposed to pastor.
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"Do this in remembrance of me" is a command given to every believer.
Where is scriptures states the retention of sins by the episkopos? This is the practice of the unbiblical separation of priest and laity, started by the RCC. Essentially to control the people.
When Jesus gave the instructions to the apostles present, it was a pattern to ALL believers.

While Paul does not say the bishop must have a wife, his statement implies marriage and family is a norm for the eldership. TWICE. In 1 Tim 3 and Titus 2.
The RCC essentially forbids marriage of their priests. This contradicts what Paul instructs.

QUOTE
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


The Latin RCC forbids their clergy to marry. And at large most RCC follows this.
It is a BAD practice as we have seen. Paul instructs marriage, not celibacy.
By the way, we believers are supernatural, not only the priests!

Your excuse and reasoning is bunk and without merit. Paul says so

QUOTE
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)


This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 11 2019, 04:45 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 09:22 AM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Sep 11 2019, 10:37 PM)
It is ok to have our own opinions.

I had the privilege of meeting Brian Simmons, the translator of the Passion Bible.

At that time, he had just published his first passion book, the Song of Songs (Solomon).

He strongly believes his translation bring a fresh take on the scripture through the eyes of a lover.

My take on versions like NLT, the Passion translation and the Message is that they are no different from the efforts taken by many to translate the bible into various languages like Thai, Cambodian, Burmese etc etc.

There are literally thousands of such translations.

While they are no works of scholarship, they all do touch specific target groups. So do the versions like NLT, Message and Passion.

And the one thing they have in common is that they are works of love.

In my eyes, they each are all a tiny part of the wonderful mosaic of God's plan to reach as many people as possible with His wonderful Word.
As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Can we really deny that the Holy Spirit has used these translations to touch and change lives?
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I think the fresh take approach is rather dangerous.
At best, its a commentary.
At worst, its misrepresents God.
Love has boundaries set by Holiness of God. Its not unbounded which ends in lust.

Bear in Mind, the Spirit of God wrote the scriptures. Be aware that we do not chop and change for the purpose of 'groups'.
That will be misrepresenting God's word.

QUOTE
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.


QUOTE
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 10:28 AM)
John 3: 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
We are so judgmental of other people sometimes. God did not send Christ to condemn you. So likewise I think we should not judge others with harsh words like you're the anti christ lah, you're not saved lah, etc etc.

It's a very condemning spirit.

Besides on the same verse the condemnation here in context is on people who reject the name of Christ, not because they don't have it all together.
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Depends how you define 'belief' and faith.

The Jewish understanding of faith is not just a mental ascend. Faith demands action or works to justify that paradigm.

Therefore James put it as

QUOTE
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


So when we have faith in Him who saves, we should be obeying His commands. Otherwise, its open to doubts.

QUOTE
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


For even those who do works but not according to His commands

QUOTE
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 01:31 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 01:27 PM)
So have you been keeping God's commands up to God's expectation?
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Don't you try to?
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 01:36 PM)
I do but my question is, have you been able to keep it to God's expectation so much so it's the qualification of your salvation since u said it's 2 side of the same coin to salvation..IF I remember it correctly.

Or I could be wrong..... hmm.gif
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You are wrong.

I did not mention that we are perfect in keeping to His will.
I said Faith demands action. James said that too.
Abraham showed it. So did Rahab.

However, there are some who think that mental ascend to 'accept' Jesus as their savior is a passport to eternity.
And show nothing else to demonstrate that 'faith'.
James called it dead faith. Even devils have 'faith'. Just the wrong type.
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 01:48 PM)
So both Faith + Works = passport to heaven?

Then how do you explain...Ephesians 2:8-9?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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Good works do not save us. Otherwise all other good works religion is the same.

However, faith in Jesus requires and demands works/action.

Further to the verse that you used

QUOTE
0 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
.

See the play with words here?

So True Faith demand works/action. Dead faith demands nothing.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 12 2019, 02:02 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:16 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Sep 12 2019, 02:10 PM)
Jeng jeng jeng .... The Bible reveals both aspects:  salvation by grace through faith and the reward of the kingdom is by works biggrin.gif
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Not really

Faith in Action by Father of Faith!

QUOTE
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:25 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 02:16 PM)
It's not play of words

Read the verses carefully, "Salvation...it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works"

Emphasize key importance = Gift and best of all From God. Which part of the "Not of works" you missed out here?

Not means No, you know?

Yes further verse says we were created to do good works but bear in mind for it is God who works in us. Again point to God. What I'm trying to say is that you don't control God and neither can you force God to work in you.

so ultimately Salvation is a gift of God's grace.
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Yes. It is a gift.

And which part of works you missed out inspite of highlighting it for you?

Here again

QUOTE
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


So True Faith demand good works/action. Dead faith demands nothing. Dead faith is just an inkling in your head.
Even the devils have faith. Dead faith.
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 02:26 PM)
True Faith in God, not in ourselves to obey or to work because that can turn into a kind of dependency which is what the Bible is trying to cut off. 

We need to cast such dependency away imo and look to Christ alone as the anchor.

I've always argued to put in works into the equation is to mix and muddle up the meaning of gift.
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You are muddled because you do not understand the Jewish meaning of faith.
Bible is trying to cut off nothing.
Help you again

From Father of Faith

QUOTE
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Which part of Abraham's works do you not understand?

Would Isaac be conceived without Abraham performing with Sarah? laugh.gif

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 12 2019, 02:31 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:33 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Sep 12 2019, 02:30 PM)
Wah so fast to write me off.  XD

Your premise on the word salvation is the initial salvation.

In Romans Paul tells us that justification is by faith. He feared that some might not know what God had done, what Christ had accomplished, and how effective the precious blood was. They might have thought that just believing was insufficient and that there was an additional need for man's works in order to be saved. Therefore, Paul used the case of Abraham to show that justification is by faith. James, however, also used the case of Abraham in speaking about justification by works. Consequently, we can see that there is a close relationship between justification by faith and justification by works. Paul and James actually spoke about the same thing; their words are not contradictory.

This work is the work of faith. Faith and works are inseparable; they are two sides of one thing.

Yet, I chose my words carefully ... biggrin.gif  .... salvation is not merely just initial salvation in which we see the two-foldness. I use "the reward of the kingdom" in that salvation is the life-long process.
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AMEN!

That is the True meaning of the Jewish understanding of faith.

Amen....AMAN.....Hebrew for faith.

Therefore True Faith demand good works/action. Dead faith demands nothing

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 12 2019, 02:35 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 02:36 PM)
Ya Righteousness imputed because of his Faith in God.
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Which part of the performance do you not understand?

QUOTE
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;


When was righteousness imputed?
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:41 PM

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And confirmed by James

QUOTE
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 02:47 PM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Sep 12 2019, 02:45 PM)
True. But unless we understand it in the reality of the union of Christ, we will go to two extremes:
1) We became dead passive thinking that Christ will do "everything". - HYPER GRACE

2) Or, we will use our flesh to work out our on-going salvation.- WORKS SALVATION
*
thumbup.gif
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 04:13 PM)
I'm really referring to the bold. It is really a prevalent problem in the Christendom.

For me personally, works + Faith has a lot to do with believing in God's promises, in God's ability to answer prayers, it's no point to just believe but act the opposite by complaining and acting out contradictory to what we have prayed. There are Christians today, no longer believing in God's divine miracle. And also in the aspect of loving others in action and not just mere words.

That is the key aspect of Works + Faith in the book of James if we look at all the examples given.

As for Salvation, what the Bible says, it is the gift of God and not of ourselves, we believe in Christ, in his finished work, we are saved by the confession of our mouth. And the prove of our walk really depends on what we believe in. The Holy Spirit will only act according to God's word. If we don't believe that Christ alone is the assurance of our Salvation, we will try to incorporate the works which is what the Bible is against. The works of the flesh as you called it. We nullify the meaning of grace.

Because when we believe right, on Salvation as the gift aspect being a grace gift, when we understand apart from Christ, we can do nothing and learn to live in the New Covenant of Righteousness by Faith, working of God's Holy Spirit comes in a promised. it is something effortless (meaning NONE of our deeds or performance), This fruits or works as what prophetjul is implying  comes without us being conscious about it.

Matthew 25:37-39 (NIV) - 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

When we keep harping on this works, it's not going to work. I think we need to focus more on Christ being the vine and none of ourselves.
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Actually I am not harping on works. Feels like works to you is a dirty word. The problem is that you were taught Faith vs Works thing.
That is a wrongful way to look at faith.

Faith or Aman in Hebrew depicts the need for action/works. Without which James calls it fake. He describes that even devils have faith. Strange?

No. Because the faith as understood by the Jews is Faith and works are binary not separated as depicted by Luther.
There is no Sola Fide in the Jewish perspective of Aman.

How can we be unconscious of faith works when we are taught to obey God?
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 04:46 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 12 2019, 04:44 PM)
prophetjul is closer to Catholic teaching on this compared to UW. smile.gif
*
I am closer to Jewish understanding of Faith/Aman, not Roman Catholic teachings on works. laugh.gif
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 05:59 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 12 2019, 04:52 PM)
Well, as how the Bible has point it out, our focus is on primarily Christ being the Savior. If we can get in heaven, with mixing in our faith with our obedience, there is really no need for a Savior. Simply because the gauge now has me involved in it.

Too often we always look to ourselves, our shortcoming where we fall short or where we've fail and .......without realize God already knew all our disobedience as if  catches God by surprise.

I'm not trying to say Don't obey. I'm trying to disassociate the confidence in what we do or lack of it in pleasing God.

if only you could understand where I'm coming from.
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Well, if only you knew where the Jewish understanding of faith is coming from, and not what you were taught to match faith vs works.

you will have a hard time deciphering what James is trying to teach you. laugh.gif
prophetjul
post Sep 12 2019, 06:02 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 12 2019, 05:29 PM)
The RCC does not teach that works itself saves.
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i do not mean works itself either, but obedience to God's commands. Which RCC seem to be very lacking.

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