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 FI/RE - Financial Independence / Retire Early, Share your experience

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rapple
post Jul 17 2018, 01:37 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Jul 17 2018, 12:49 PM)
I find your thinking funny. If net worth is not valued at market price, then at what price? Cost price? Lol. Guess Warren Buffett is just a millionaire.
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I wouldn't valued my properties at market price.

When you valued your property at market price, then the return from your rental income will drop unless he can raised the rental as he wish. He claims his average rental yield at 6%. Is the 6% yield on his property is based on market price or cost price?

QUOTE(NightHeart @ Jul 17 2018, 12:56 PM)
But your accounting freelance is basically trading your extra time for money no? Your time is 24 hours a day only. So there's some sorta limit (aka not so scale-able), unless your increase your earning per hour rates. How practical is it to achieve 1:3 day job to freelance income ratio?

Take it with a pinch of salt, but from my observation....accountants or whoever working in the finance department can climb up quite obviously. The CFO from my last MNC company climbed his way through from a normal exec from the Big 4. I noticed the same trend for those working in the accounts department in each of my previous employment. The key difference is, the one that tends to climb up very quickly exhibits very obvious leadership characteristics on top of being good at their work.

What I'm suggesting is, increasing your daytime job income via self-improvement should be the better path instead of increasing freelance income as the opportunity is much better no? If you suck at your daytime job, chances of you suck at your freelance is kinda likely too no? Both daytime job & freelance is basically trading your time for income.

IMO, the function of freelance is to gain extra pocket money or something to keep your mind active when you retire at 60.
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A small Company where I work, I only have 1 account to work on. I will let you guess, how much time I need to finish one month of accounting work?

Company that has less than 1m revenue per year and requires monthly accounts, I can charge at least 300 per month. My time cost is probably less than 3 hours/month.

Now, you know my average fees / hour, do you still think 1:3 ratio is not achievable given the time i have at work and after work.

Edit: The only thing I need more, is the connections. As accounting work is all confidential, I can't go sell my service because I'm unknown to them. Most of my clients is recommended by friends or clients.

This post has been edited by rapple: Jul 17 2018, 01:51 PM
aspartame
post Jul 17 2018, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 01:37 PM)
I wouldn't valued my properties at market price.

When you valued your property at market price, then the return from your rental income will drop unless he can raised the rental as he wish. He claims his average rental yield at 6%. Is the 6% yield on his property is based on market price or cost price?
A small Company where I work, I only have 1 account to work on. I will let you guess, how much time I need to finish one month of accounting work?

Company that has less than 1m revenue per year and requires monthly accounts, I can charge at least 300 per month. My time cost is probably less than 3 hours/month.

Now, you know my average fees / hour, do you still think 1:3 ratio is not achievable given the time i have at work and after work.

Edit: The only thing I need more, is the connections. As accounting work is all confidential, I can't go sell my service because I'm unknown to them. Most of my clients is recommended by friends or clients.
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Calculation of net worth should be at market price, whether we are talking about property or stocks. If you personally want to value at cost price, of course you can, but u can't say u feel funny because others value at market price. Those who value their net worth at market price are free to apply a 10% or more discount to whatever net worth to derive their own conservative net worth. I personally will value stocks at market price and properties at average of last few transacted price. I dun apply discounts to this figure .

For both stock and properties , there are market yields and yield on cost depending on what base u choose for your denominator. In any case , yields have no relevance in the calculation of net worth. Net worth is new worth. Yield on net worth is another thing.

This post has been edited by aspartame: Jul 17 2018, 02:08 PM
cherroy
post Jul 17 2018, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 01:37 PM)
I wouldn't valued my properties at market price.

When you valued your property at market price, then the return from your rental income will drop unless he can raised the rental as he wish. He claims his average rental yield at 6%. Is the 6% yield on his property is based on market price or cost price?

*
Property or asset should be valued at market price to show the real truth and situation.

A property that bought 100k ago, now worth 1 mil.
The rental income is 10k pa.

One can "syiok sendiri" by saying, the property generate 10% return.

But in actual fact, the property only yield 1%, a bad yield.
As if sell off the property at 1 mil and put in FD at 4%, the return would be 40K pa.

Same when property bought at high price.
Bought at 1 mil, but if now worth 700k,
One should view the property net worth is 700k or instead "syiok sendiri" again say the property worth 1 mil?

Yes, those are unrealised gain or net worth until one sells it off, but unrealised worth at market price, is the real worth one is having now.
That's why in accounting, we have unrealised gain vs realised gain difference.

Same with other assets, be it stock, unit trust or whatever, a yield should be justified based on current worth, to show the actual truth situation, so that one can make good decision on it.



rapple
post Jul 17 2018, 02:39 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Jul 17 2018, 02:07 PM)
Calculation of net worth should be at market price, whether we are talking about property or stocks. If you personally want to value at cost price, of course you can, but  u can't say u feel funny because others value at market price. Those who value their net worth at market price are free to apply a 10% or more discount to whatever net worth to derive their own conservative net worth. I personally will value stocks at market price and properties at average of last few transacted price. I dun apply discounts to this figure .

For both stock and properties , there are market yields and yield on cost depending on what base u choose for your denominator. In any case , yields have no relevance in the calculation of net worth. Net worth is new worth. Yield on net worth is another thing.
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You are right that yield will not shown in any net worth statement but it still comes from the properties.

How can you valued your properties at market price and have your yield based on the cost price. Isn't this misleading on the yield?

Are you going to calculate your dividends received against the current stock market value also?






aspartame
post Jul 17 2018, 02:58 PM

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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 02:39 PM)
You are right that yield will not shown in any net worth statement but it still comes from the properties.

How can you valued your properties at market price and have your yield based on the cost price. Isn't this misleading on the yield?

Are you going to calculate your dividends received against the current stock market value also?
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I seldom calculate yields on properties except when I am looking to buy. I more regularly calculate yield on stocks based on market price to determine buying or selling decisions. Yield on cost is quite irrelevant to me because cost price is history and historical yield is useless except maybe u want to shiok sendiri and say u have locked in a high yield based on cost.
cherroy
post Jul 17 2018, 03:04 PM

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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 02:39 PM)
You are right that yield will not shown in any net worth statement but it still comes from the properties.

How can you valued your properties at market price and have your yield based on the cost price. Isn't this misleading on the yield?

Are you going to calculate your dividends received against the current stock market value also?
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Yes,
Stock, reit also the same, and should be judged based on its current yield based on current price.

eg.
Bought a stock at 1.00, now is 2.00, it gives dividend 10 cents pa.
It should be viewed as 5% yield, instead 10%.

And decision to sell or buy from now on, should be based on the 5%, as it is the real yield.

As if the share price goes up to 4.00, and still gives 10 cents pa.
One may consider to sell it, as it no longer a good yielding stock, as it is only 2.5% yield, no longer a 10% yield (syiok sendiri approach)
Sell at 4.00, put in FD 4%, you get 16 cents, instead of 10 cents dividend. So FD yield is better than stock yield already.

But if one uses 10% (syiok sendiri) approach, it is masking the real situation.
A so called 10% yield return (10 cents) worst than 4% FD (16 cents)

rapple
post Jul 17 2018, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jul 17 2018, 03:04 PM)
Yes,
Stock, reit also the same, and should be judged based on its current yield based on current price.

eg.
Bought a stock at 1.00, now is 2.00, it gives dividend 10 cents pa.
It should be viewed as 5% yield, instead 10%.

And decision to sell or buy from now on, should be based on the 5%, as it is the real yield.

As if the share price goes up to 4.00, and still gives 10 cents pa.
One may consider to sell it, as it no longer a good yielding stock, as it is only 2.5% yield, no longer a 10% yield (syiok sendiri approach)
Sell at 4.00, put in FD 4%, you get 16 cents, instead of 10 cents dividend. So FD yield is better than stock yield already.

But if one uses 10% (syiok sendiri) approach, it is masking the real situation.
A so called 10% yield return (10 cents) worst than 4% FD (16 cents)
*
hmm.gif Really something that I've never think about.

I guess I have done too much DCA to lower cost instead of thinking of actual worth.
NightHeart
post Jul 17 2018, 03:29 PM

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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 01:37 PM)
A small Company where I work, I only have 1 account to work on. I will let you guess, how much time I need to finish one month of accounting work?

Company that has less than 1m revenue per year and requires monthly accounts, I can charge at least 300 per month. My time cost is probably less than 3 hours/month.

Now, you know my average fees / hour, do you still think 1:3 ratio is not achievable given the time i have at work and after work.

Edit: The only thing I need more, is the connections. As accounting work is all confidential, I can't go sell my service because I'm unknown to them. Most of my clients is recommended by friends or clients.
*
RM300 per 3 hours, assuming you spend 3 hours each working day, that’s RM6k per month assuming you have roughly 20 clients. RM9k per month assuming you work 30 days for 30 different clients, right?

If you climb up the ladder, you could earn more than your freelance & network with higher profile people. The higher you go up, the higher level people you get to meet. Attend annual budget seminar = meet more high leveled people from your industry. Manage a whole department = network with other head of departments & more.

That’s why I was throwing some food for thoughts for you to reconsider growing your day job income instead of being too focused on your freelance. But don’t get me wrong, doing freelance is great too. Just that depending on what you’re planning to achieve at the end of your career, balance out between day job & freelance.

QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 03:09 PM)
hmm.gif Really something that I've never think about.

I guess I have done too much DCA to lower cost instead of thinking of actual worth.
*
The amazing wonders of having a more open mind; you’ll learn really fast from various different perspectives.
cherroy
post Jul 17 2018, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(NightHeart @ Jul 17 2018, 03:29 PM)
RM300 per 3 hours, assuming you spend 3 hours each working day, that’s RM6k per month assuming you have roughly 20 clients. RM9k per month assuming you work 30 days for 30 different clients, right?

If you climb up the ladder, you could earn more than your freelance & network with higher profile people. The higher you go up, the higher level people you get to meet. Attend annual budget seminar = meet more high leveled people from your industry. Manage a whole department = network with other head of departments & more.

That’s why I was throwing some food for thoughts for you to reconsider growing your day job income instead of being too focused on your freelance. But don’t get me wrong, doing freelance is great too. Just that depending on what you’re planning to achieve at the end of your career, balance out between day job & freelance. 
The amazing wonders of having a more open mind; you’ll learn really fast from various different perspectives.
*
Freelance is a good step ladder to become own boss.
Many become own boss through this way as well.

While too focus on freelance job may jeopardize one job career path (climb up the ladder within the company as employed)

No right or wrong in between, it is personal choice, as sometimes, climbing up the ladder involves a lot of office politics as well.
A lot of time, not the best or better person get promoted. I guess many get what I mean.

Not mean to encourage or discourage which way one should go.

Yes, an open mind indeed is essential in learning path in any financial planning/career.



rapple
post Jul 17 2018, 04:25 PM

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QUOTE(NightHeart @ Jul 17 2018, 03:29 PM)
RM300 per 3 hours, assuming you spend 3 hours each working day, that’s RM6k per month assuming you have roughly 20 clients. RM9k per month assuming you work 30 days for 30 different clients, right?

If you climb up the ladder, you could earn more than your freelance & network with higher profile people. The higher you go up, the higher level people you get to meet. Attend annual budget seminar = meet more high leveled people from your industry. Manage a whole department = network with other head of departments & more.

That’s why I was throwing some food for thoughts for you to reconsider growing your day job income instead of being too focused on your freelance. But don’t get me wrong, doing freelance is great too. Just that depending on what you’re planning to achieve at the end of your career, balance out between day job & freelance. 
The amazing wonders of having a more open mind; you’ll learn really fast from various different perspectives.
*
Honestly, what can i ask more when my boss gives me tons of free time with a good pay and I'm the only person in the office.

Corporate life is tough and I'm not really keen on it.

I have met different sets of people with different businesses background through my freelance work.

Then I'm also actually lucky that my wife boss (A Company Sec.) will introduce clients to me for accounting work and my friend who runs an auditing firm.


QUOTE(cherroy @ Jul 17 2018, 03:38 PM)
Freelance is a good step ladder to become own boss.
Many become own boss through this way as well.

While too focus on freelance job may jeopardize one job career path (climb up the ladder within the company as employed)

No right or wrong in between, it is personal choice, as sometimes, climbing up the ladder involves a lot of office politics as well.
A lot of time, not the best or better person get promoted. I guess many get what I mean.

Not mean to encourage or discourage which way one should go.

Yes, an open mind indeed is essential in learning path in any financial planning/career.
*
Income will reach till a point where it won't increase anymore due to my non-flexible time and that's when I'll have to make a decision to commit to a full time freelancer or just be grateful for what I have at that time.

NightHeart
post Jul 17 2018, 05:15 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jul 17 2018, 03:38 PM)
Freelance is a good step ladder to become own boss.
Many become own boss through this way as well.

While too focus on freelance job may jeopardize one job career path (climb up the ladder within the company as employed)

No right or wrong in between, it is personal choice, as sometimes, climbing up the ladder involves a lot of office politics as well.
A lot of time, not the best or better person get promoted. I guess many get what I mean.

Not mean to encourage or discourage which way one should go.

Yes, an open mind indeed is essential in learning path in any financial planning/career.
*
Yes it's a great stepping stone indeed. Agree with you, the key is to find the balance between both that can help achieve their personal long term plan; whether to become a highly positioned person in the corporate world before retiring into a freelancer or to leave corporate world earlier & build own accounting firm.

QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 04:25 PM)
Honestly, what can i ask more when my boss gives me tons of free time with a good pay and I'm the only person in the office.

Corporate life is tough and I'm not really keen on it.

I have met different sets of people with different businesses background through my freelance work.

Then I'm also actually lucky that my wife boss (A Company Sec.) will introduce clients to me for accounting work and my friend who runs an auditing firm.
Income will reach till a point where it won't increase anymore due to my non-flexible time and that's when I'll have to make a decision to commit to a full time freelancer or just be grateful for what I have at that time.
*
Seems like the opportunity presented at you now is gearing you towards existing corporate life earlier to pursue your own accounting firm thumbup.gif
Opportunity comes & goes, capitalize on it while the window is still open.

Have you met or do you have client from the retail world?
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jul 17 2018, 09:26 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jul 17 2018, 02:35 PM)
Property or asset should be valued at market price to show the real truth and situation.

A property that bought 100k ago, now worth 1 mil.
The rental income is 10k pa.

One can "syiok sendiri" by saying, the property generate 10% return.

But in actual fact, the property only yield 1%, a bad yield.
As if sell off the property at 1 mil and put in FD at 4%, the return would be 40K pa.

Same when property bought at high price.
Bought at 1 mil, but if now worth 700k,
One should view the property net worth is 700k or instead "syiok sendiri" again say the property worth 1 mil?

Yes, those are unrealised gain or net worth until one sells it off, but unrealised worth at market price, is the real worth one is having now.
That's why in accounting, we have unrealised gain vs realised gain difference.

Same with other assets, be it stock, unit trust or whatever, a yield should be justified based on current worth, to show the actual truth situation, so that one can make good decision on it.
*
Great explanation.
Dose that mean need 80k pa for rental only then meet he 8%pa? meaning 6.6k per month.
A few houses I see worth 1.2 also rented out as 2.5k per month at lost 3.5k barely touch 5k....

Meaning the owner is at lost?
I thought as long as the rental can cover all expenses and loan amount (per month) consider an ok condition? If having surplus eg: loan 400 per month rent out 800 per month.

This post has been edited by [Ancient]-XinG-: Jul 17 2018, 09:29 PM
NightHeart
post Jul 17 2018, 09:38 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jul 17 2018, 09:26 PM)
Great explanation.
Dose that mean need 80k pa for rental only then meet he 8%pa? meaning 6.6k per month.
A few houses I see worth 1.2 also rented out as 2.5k per month at lost 3.5k barely touch 5k....

Meaning the owner is at lost?
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Yes. As your property price increase, rental should increase in tandem too. But in reality it's not always the case. Buy & Sell market is often different from Rental market.

Some places, people dislike buying those properties but lotsa people wanna rent. So the rental rates increase, you can sometimes collect more rent than the monthly installment. On the other spectrum, there are places that people prefer to buy instead of rent. So the rental rates are low while the transacting price is high, this is a losing end for landlords.

icemanfx
post Jul 17 2018, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jul 17 2018, 09:26 PM)
Great explanation.
Dose that mean need 80k pa for rental only then meet he 8%pa? meaning 6.6k per month.
A few houses I see worth 1.2 also rented out as 2.5k per month at lost 3.5k barely touch 5k....

Meaning the owner is at lost?
I thought as long as the rental can cover all expenses and loan amount (per month) consider an ok condition? If having surplus eg: loan 400 per month rent out 800 per month.
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Except those bought years ago, if rental could cover loan instalment, qualified tenant would have bought.

with about 3% of adults in this country have over us$100k net worth, those could afford to retire early are few and far in between.


This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jul 17 2018, 11:01 PM
LoTek
post Jul 17 2018, 10:49 PM

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QUOTE(aspartame @ Jul 17 2018, 12:49 PM)
I find your thinking funny. If net worth is not valued at market price, then at what price? Cost price? Lol. Guess Warren Buffett is just a millionaire.
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QUOTE(rapple @ Jul 17 2018, 01:37 PM)
I wouldn't valued my properties at market price.

When you valued your property at market price, then the return from your rental income will drop unless he can raised the rental as he wish. He claims his average rental yield at 6%. Is the 6% yield on his property is based on market price or cost price? recommended by friends or clients.
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Yields based on market price, total rental income p.a (income, not profit, in case anyone queries) is in 6 figures.





You know what this is turning ridiculous, as if I have to defend myself, stopped posting regularly especially with my old account due to noise, just starting to get busy with this account but I'm probably just going to back to being a reader whistling.gif Feel free to PM me if you want to chat.

This post has been edited by LoTek: Jul 17 2018, 10:51 PM
R93
post Jul 17 2018, 11:34 PM

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FI ultimately means that you can shape your life without taking money into consideration, FIRE doesn’t necessarily mean you have to quit your job, my first goal is to achieve FI, everyone "enough" number for retirement is different, to me, RM4mil with debt free is good enough. Saving money into EPF is the only saving I have smile.gif , if the average dividend is 5.6%, by age 55, my account should have at least RM1.5mil, so the dividend is sufficient to support my monthly expenses (hopefully Malaysia is not going bankruptcy or the inflation rate don't go beyond 10% wish.gif). However, it is still a long way to go... laugh.gif
MUM
post Jul 17 2018, 11:53 PM

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QUOTE(R93 @ Jul 17 2018, 11:34 PM)
FI ultimately means that you can shape your life without taking money into consideration, FIRE doesn’t necessarily mean you have to quit your job, my first goal is to achieve FI, everyone "enough" number for retirement is different, to me, RM4mil with debt free is good enough. Saving money into EPF is the only saving I have smile.gif , if the average dividend is 5.6%, by age 55, my account should have at least RM1.5mil, so the dividend is sufficient to support my monthly expenses (hopefully Malaysia is not going bankruptcy or the inflation rate don't go beyond 10%  wish.gif).  However, it is still a long way to go...  laugh.gif
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thumbup.gif interesting .....
btw,...any idea what is the actual current inflation number per annum are for the past few years?
R93
post Jul 18 2018, 01:27 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Jul 17 2018, 11:53 PM)
thumbup.gif interesting .....
btw,...any idea what is the actual current inflation number per annum are for the past few years?
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Some website shown the past few years data consumer inflation rate is <3% in average, I not sure how accurate is, I only know when the sugar price increase 10sen/kg, Teh tarik will increase 10sen as well devil.gif , any sifu can advise here? confused.gif
MUM
post Jul 18 2018, 06:32 AM

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QUOTE(R93 @ Jul 18 2018, 01:27 AM)
Some website shown the past few years data consumer inflation rate is <3% in average, I not sure how accurate is, I only know when the sugar price increase 10sen/kg, Teh tarik will increase 10sen as well devil.gif , any sifu can advise here?  confused.gif
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sweat.gif Thus on this, ".....Saving money into EPF is the only saving I have , if the average dividend is 5.6%, by age 55, my account should have at least RM1.5mil, so the dividend is sufficient to support my monthly expenses ....", just be aware that the purchasing power of that RM1.5mil at that time will not be like what it is today... sweat.gif
R93
post Jul 18 2018, 07:02 AM

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QUOTE(MUM @ Jul 18 2018, 06:32 AM)
sweat.gif  Thus on this, ".....Saving money into EPF is the only saving I have  , if the average dividend is 5.6%, by age 55, my account should have at least RM1.5mil, so the dividend is sufficient to support my monthly expenses ....", just be aware that the purchasing power of that RM1.5mil at that time will not be like what it is today...  sweat.gif
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oh ya, Rm1.5mil might be not enough at that time, in order to achieve FI, my plan is to sell one of the property next year, hopefully the market is still growing... blush.gif

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