We have conceded 24 alright and without Vida, we have conceded 4 goals during his injury period 2 against Pompey,1 each against Blackburn and Boro. That's not even counting goals that we leaked when he wasn't playing in the earlier part of the season, when he was down injured, when Rio and Wes was our 1st choice partnership. We stopped leaking goals when he started playing with Rio which again underlines the important of Vidic to us and how his presence has even brought new confidence to an unconsistent Rio. Our defensive record would be a hella lot worse had it not been for the presence of Vidic. And yes,the fact that the team is doing very well also reflects on him as well,hence the moinations for the Team Of The Year thing.

As I said, I don't think Carragher wasn't overlooked, Vidic is just better than him this season and our position shows it. Had there been a substitue bench or something. i"m very sure Carragher would have been there and I do not mean anything sarcastic by it. Just to show that he is surely next in line after Rio and Vidic.

This post has been edited by air_mood: Apr 24 2007, 06:46 PM

1st C.Ronaldo for overall perfromance... and 2nd to Drogba he score crucial goals for chelsea...

not only that, if you watch the goal chelsea scored against liverpool in the CL, the power and determination to beat agger and a good pass to cole that score the goal show how strong he is to chelsea attack...

Your position is also based on your team's ability to play attacking football, which make your defenders' job easier. Our attacking ability however was weak but not our defence, find a team with Liverpool's calibre conceeding so few goals. Some people actually said that our keeper isn't good and our defenders are doing all the dirty jobs, which I strongly disagree, however that proved that our defenders aren't doing nothing.

Based on the match between Liverpool and Man Utd at Anfield, if it wasn't for our lack of finishing ability and your Dutch keeper, we would've scored and won. We made your defenders look vulnerable. When lady luck is on your side, it plays a big role too. The same goes to the game between Roma and you lots, had tonnes of chances but lack of the killer touch.

Carra has been wonderful this season with his influence at the back four as well as his ability to give instructions. His workrate is class as well as his playing spirit. You guys quickly forget how well he did this season against Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea. Without him, where will Liverpool be this season? Agger is considerably a fresh face without much experience and the much experienced Hyypia is now relegated to the bench. As for Vidic, Rio is a much experienced defender who plays for England all the time, Vidic isn't inexperience either, Rafa wanted him before signing Daniel Agger.

What happen to Matthew Taylor anyway? Berbatov? and also Agger for the PFA young player of the year? Duke, Kevin Doyle is among the PFA young player of the year's nomination.

Noone mention about Drogba's contribution to our back four especially when our opponents take corners or set pieces against us. He won most of the aerial battle inside our own penalty box.

How does it make our defender's job easier when we dont actually have a designated player to protect the back 4 i.e. Sissoko for you and Makelele for the russians??? Carrick and Scholesy spends most of their time in the opposition half and that leaves the defending, especially thru the middle solely on our central defense. I'm not going to deny, Bellamy did give Vidic a hard time in the 1st half but Vida did well in the 2nd. He's a human being and no robot so he's bound to have a bad game every once in a while. Are you going to tell me that Agger and Carragher had perfect season this season??? No missed tackles?? I seem to recall a certain Jamie Carragher being outmuscled by Henry en route to Arsenal's 3rd goal in the FA Cup game.

If you're basing your judgement of our defense on the game at Anfield, can I base my judgement on the game at Old Trafford??? We basically outplayed you for the whole game, got 2 clear goals and was a very clear, clear win. As for the game at Anfield, most have probably slipped my mind, refresh it if you will but the only things I recall is the offside goal and that chance towards the end by Crouch which VDS saved. So how was it that you made our defenders look silly?? You did have control of the game, I'm not denying that but you didn't realy have many celar cut chances either. Lack of finishing ehh?? Not gonna deny that cause your own Jamie Carragher said after the game that you just basically need better players. Not sure who exactly he meant but there you go. Not denying that lady luck helped but it helps almost every team so what's the big deal??? It's not like we get lucky every single game. Not like you never get lucky in your games.

If you say that we seem to forget Carragher's contribution in the games against us, Chelsea and Arsenal. You're basically doing the same with Vida and Rio. Vidic took out Kuyt at OT that he basically had nothing to do at all in the game. Same thing that he did with Drogba at OT. Rio has been commanding the back 4 as well. Along with Gary Neville, he has been the most vocal of our back 4, organizing it most of the time as well as Gaz normally bombs forward to help the attack. Not going to deny Vidic is experienced but Rio certainly helped. Vidic did took time to settle down here as can be seen with his performances last season where he didnt settle down. If you're saying that Rio's experiences has much to do with how good their partnership are, couldn't the same be said about Carragher?? he has played for Liverpool since 1996 so shouldn't that render the "Agger has been doing well despite his inexperience, forms a great partnership with Carragher despite the youth factor" argument useless??

As for Berbatov, he is in there in the Team of The Year but do you really think that he deserves a place in the Player of the Year nominations ahead of anyone else that's been nominated?? If it was up to me, I'd probably have switched Gerrard with Essien but that's about it.

There is no point in taking this argument any further. Your position in the league is also greatly attributed to the fact that you have scored 20 goal more than us. Ronaldo's contribution alone is comparative to the total tally of all our strikers.

For a player who isn't even a starter for his national team, Carra has outplayed many top strikers who do start for their national sides. Yes he may be out-muscled or out-paced every now and then but that comes down to genetics. Not may defenders can expect to out-muscle Drogba or beat Henry in terms of pace. Carra is not the most technically gifted player which makes it all the more amazing that he plays so well. He makes up for it with heart, passion, commitment and tenacity. While many players of today attend parties and are more concerned with getting their faces on magazines and newspapers, Carra often stays in his hotel room, watching tapes on football when on his travels. He is the consummate professional, preferring to work on his game, spend time with his family and avoid the Hollywood life. Sadly, these things are not taken into consideration during award nominations.

On a personal note, I could care less if Titus Bramble was nominated in place of Carra. I do however feel sorry for Carra and that he is always overlooked. What matters to me is that he continues to marshal the Liverpool rearguard until late in his career. I would not swap him for any defender in the world because though I believe there are those who are more talented, I don' think there is any that is more dedicated to the team and the sport. Heart over talent for me.



Anyone who remembers Istanbul will remember the moment we held our breaths when Carra went down on his back, grimacing in pain. Despite playing in pain, he had enough heart to play on and was called upon to make vital interceptions at full stretch.

I didn't take anything out from Vidic anyway. I'm just saying that with Rio and a better attacking team, it just make life easier for the defenders. When oppositions are being pushed behind and pressed badly, how do you expect the whole team to attack? I agree that Man Utd looked vulnerable when they lost Vidic and the Pompey game says it all. But that doesn't prove that Rio and Vidic are better than Carra.

I said that Vidic had a better time defending as Rio is experienced, as for Liverpool...being a weaker attacking team compare to Man Utd, Carra is only partnering Agger who is still fresh and currently in his first real season. Last season he didn't play much. Furthermore, Carra shouts for instructions, lead the team...all these duties are left to Rio when it comes to Man Utd.

Based on the OT's, Arsenal's matches this season, I do agree that we were outplayed. But for the Arsenal game, the poor keeping didn't help either. We were conceeding whenever Arsenal had a shot on target. As I've said, when there're 8 players attacking compare to 4, which causes more problems?

Sissoko didn't play much and if you had pay more attention to him, he has been shit with his passings this season. Some passes even gave the opposition chance to score against us.

Berbatov certainly does worth mention, his consistency and his ability to hold up ball has been the key factor why Tottenham is so successful this season. Though his finishing may not be the best, but without him, would Spurs be among the Quarterfinalist of the FA Cup and the UEFA Cup?

I voted for C.Ronaldo. Because his consistency and his ability to score goals.

You cant really blame anyone that Carragher has been overlooked. England for example, center of defence has got to be one of their strongest position. And with formation that England deploys, you can only choose 2, hence Rio and Terry are chosen whom in the eyes of many are the best central defenders in England. It's kinda like Cudicini in his heyday with Italy. He's one of the best Italian keepers no question but when you have the likes of then Peruzzi, Toldo and Buffon to name a few, not much he can do about it.


I f you're saying Vida has a better time defending because Rio is experienced, then same thing should be said about Agger as well. carragher has been at Liverpool since 96 so thats 11 years, if thats not enough experience, I don't know how much is. you're actually getting it wrong. With Vida and Rio, it's the other way around. Vida does most of the defending, he attacks high balls while Rio stays back and watch for the flick ons in case Vida missed the header. Vida stays back and Rio bombs forward on those runs. The reason why the work so well is because they complement each other. Vida with his defend 1st, ask questions later attitude and Rio with his slickness and pace.

Sissoko is exactly a carbon copy of Makelele, good defending at shit at attacking. his job is exactly like Makelele which is to protect the back 4, get the ball and get it to other players to do their job. He has been playing a lot before Mascherano came and partof the reason why Gerrard was shafted to the right was to accommodate him and Alonso in the cehtre if I'm not mistaken. Sissoko is sledom playign now, but Mascherano replaces him in that job. So you stil have a player that protects your back 4, kinda what Fletcher was supposed to do for us in the Milan game last Wednesday. So that should make you team's defending a bit easier.

As for why your attacking don't work so well, I reckon it may have something to do with Benitez;s rotation policy. Playes may not have time to click as they keep playing with different players all the time. that maybe where we might have something going for us. There were a time where we went for a good 4,5 games straight with the same unchanged lineup so players click with each other, they know what sort of balls their playing partners prefer, where to make runs etc.

Berbatov is a great player no doubt. His lack of goals probably has something to do with his non nomination. And as I said earlier, do you see him replacing any of the other guys that has been nominated??

Guys, there is no point in continue debating/arguing over the selections since its already been voted by the players so no matter how much we agree/disagree on the selections, it wont change anything.

^ True dat. The winner(s) has been announced and we all know the result. So shall the mods kindly close this thread. Let's get on with football peeps!!

Well that's like saying there is no point in talking about a match after it's over but yet we do it. We each like to give our analysis on the situation and justify certain things that happened.

Yup, 1 2nd that. As long as the arguments is healthy, it's good actually. I like to read as it gives me more info about other clubs or other players. I have no complaint about Ronaldo as he's been fantastic throughout the season and he's a popular choice. But, I still can't get it how out of 11 players, 8 came out from MU. The different between MU, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal is not that superior IMO. And regarding Carragher, it's like John Terry for Chelsea. They're both inspirational for the club. Chelsea suffer a lot without Terry's around. Not for his skill but more to his leadership and his spirit.

Which is why I said there really is no more point in arguing. As fans of our respective clubs, we each would like to see our players in that team and we each have reasons to justify their selections. Terry has been amazing and I'm just as surprised to see both Rio and Vidic selected ahead of him. There is no doubting his importance in your defence.

Most probably we could ask the players themselves? I thought the nominations came from the players? And they themselves voted? I understand how important are Carragher and Terry to their respective clubs. As I'm not saying that both of them are not good. Most probably that Carra was overlooked or something. I'm not taking anyone's side or being biased towards my favourite team. But to be honest, I found that the partnership between Rio and Vida has been fantastic throughout the season. Our team conceded less goals when they were around and Vida scored a few important goals in UCL and Premiership. And not to forget that goal scored by Rio when playing Liverpool at OT. Maybe, because of this Vida and Rio was nominated. Frankly saying, Terry was out injured for quite a long time. How is he going to get nominated by warming up the bench and how fair is that if he's being nominated instead of Sol Campbell or maybe Carragher himself?

No offense to both of you, Duke Red and bwan. 8 players came out from Man Utd, well can we just discuss(rationally) whether these 8 players really deserved the nominations or not?

For the centre backs, it's kind of subjective to only nominate Terry and Rio as the best. Rio did many mistakes for the past few seasons, but yet still an undroppable player for England, just because he cost a lot. Terry wasn't even an England squad regular two seasons ago, till Sol Campbell lost his placing at Arsenal. Not to forget, there was Anthony Gardner, Ledley King and even Wes Brown before Terry was even considered. During that time, Chelsea was just another team fighting for fourth place with Liverpool, and Terry was already impressive. Moreover, Carragher hardly get his chance.

It isn't that only Rio is experienced, but don't forget that Vidic is 26 now, with reasonable experience whereas Agger is only about 21. This is Agger's first real season, some tackles are raw and decisions are bad. Carragher is the only one who is organizing the defence and shouting for instructions. You can always see him instructing Agger as well as the fullbacks all the time.

Sissoko is never a copy of Makalele, I'd take that as a compliment if you do say that. Liverpool will be in a better position if Momo is as intelligent as Claude. Claude is a defensive midfielder who stops opposition from attacking with his dirty work. That's all Sissoko does, but what makes Makalele special is that he distributes passes well too, his decisions are always good which is useful. What Momo does is just tackling and distributes bad passes which is useless. That's why you only see him distributing short passes earlier in the season. Not to forget that, he was injured for quite a while during this season. Mascherano is still pretty lenient with his tackles but I gotta admit that he is still a class player.

If the rotation policy affects the team's fluency in attacking, how do you explain Valencia when Rafa Benitez was there? How do you explain our fluency against teams like ManUtd and Chelsea? Most teams in Europe rotate players all the time, even Barca and Real Madrid just to prevent fatigueness of the players. Rafa had this idea even when he was at Valencia, it won them 2 La Liga titles in 3 seasons, 1 Uefa Cup. Furthermore, most of these passings and tactical jobs are done during training sessions. I can't deny that rotation policy may be one of the factors which made us poor while attacking, but there're still other factors like lack of creativity and consistency. A lot of players in Liverpool are in their first season such as Mark Gonzalez, Jermaine Pennant, Kuyt, Bellamy...etc, it is never easy to adapt into a new team, moreover...a few of them came from other countries or continents. These factors contribute more problems to the team when it comes to attacking.

If the number of goals is one of the factor why he isn't nominated, why is Rooney even nominated every season? He didn't score that much either, maybe more than Berbatov, but to compare to a player in Tottenham and a player in Man Utd? Rooney obviously get better services from Man Utd than the Spurs. How many goals have Rooney scored when he was in Everton? I'd see him replacing Gerrard at least. I rather not mention any players other than Gerrard as it might trigger some sensitivity here.

Terry and Rio is the best defender in England, simple. Yes, Rio did make mistakes in the past. So?? Carragher has never made mistakes??? Even Terry did make mistakes. As for Rio being undroppable, that's a bunch of crap really. When Rio hit a bad patch of form, he did get dropped and Sol Campbell replaced him. It was a very high profile drop so I don't know what you're complaining about Rio not being dropped. before Rio and Terry there was the partnership of Rio and Campbell and before that was the likes of Adams and Keown for example. Carragher has only been holding a regular place in the Liverpool lineup for the past 4 years or so, at a time when Rio and Campbell and Rio and Terry were conquering the defense, and rightly so. Back then carragher couldnt even get a starting the place with Henchoz and Hyppia being the normal preferred partnership so how do you expect him to break into the England lineup when he couldn't even get into his own team?? Agger is 23 and Vidic is 25. So they're not that much apart. Don't make him look like he's too young to be that good.

That's where you're wrong about Makelele. He doesn't distribute passes. He wins it, and most of the time he plays square balls to the other midfielders to do something with it. He very rarely joins the attack as his 2 goals in 4 seasons would testify.

That rotation policy thing might work in Valencia but it still hasn't work for him in England hasn't it??? 3 years on and it still didn't work. Fluency against team like us and Chelsea?? So?? There might be one offs but you need consistency to win things, one offs wont get you there. What's the big deal with achieving fluency against us(at home I might add) when you struggle against team in the lower parts of the league?? All the team do rotate once in a while but very little team rotates for almost every single game. Doesn't Benitez have a whole sequence of games where he went with a changed team every single game. And the numbers was very high I might add. No idea if it's still a continuing sequence though. WIth all due respect, you can practise all you want in training but the situations in training and in a real football game is not the same ain't it. One can turn out to be a Schmeichel in training but turns out a Massimo Taibi in the game.

The likes of Bellamy and Pennant are definitely in their first season and it does take time to adapt to the team,the tactics and so on but how do you expect the players to adapt to it when they have to play to new tactics or team mates every single game??

Why is Rooney nominated every season??? For why he is nominated this season, see Steven Gerrard. One thing people get wonrg about Rooney is, his game is not just about the goals. He is involved in everything playmaking, creating spaces and etc.. Not saying that justifies his nomination but there you go. So what if Berbatov is at Tottenham?? Should we praise him cause he managed to perform well in an average team?? guess I should praise Bouazza then, one of Watford's best player, performing well in a crap team. It doesn't work that way. you perform well, you get accolades. Simple.

End of.

I think this is becoming more like a bashing topic rather than a healthy debate, this isn't going anywhere. Ego is blinding us as well as biasness. I can keep it going but what's the point? You have your point there, but that doesn't mean that I agree with you totally. Even for the Rooney's case.

Of course they deserved to be nominated. Will this be a precedent of things to come then? Will the next Premiership champions have 8 players in the team of the year again? These nominations were indeed made by players which is why I think they are flawed. It's obviously easier for a player in a big team to get noticed, and it's harder to play them especially when they are supported by other good players. I asked before if someone like Rio Ferdinand would have been nominated had he played for Watford instead? It's a real subjective question but I'm certain it won't be as clear cut as it is now.

That's where you're wrong mate. Carra has always been a regular in the team since making his debut as a defensive midfielder. When Henchoz and Hyypia were playing, Carra played at rightback and then leftback when Markus Babbel was signed. In short, he has always been a Liverpool regular.



Player rotation only works if you already have your team playing a particular brand of football. As it is Rafa is still bringing in players to build a team of his liking so each year we have players who have to learn to fit into the system. We aren't just talking about 1 or 2 players a season here. Ferguson himself took what? 7 years to win his first league title? Since then, Man Utd have been playing a particular brand of football and players that come in, fit right into the system. I have seen progression in Liverpool's style of play but I do not think we are playing to Rafa's expectations yet. Judging by some of the games I've seen, I bloody hope not. When Rafa took over at Valencia, he inherited a good team and rotation was easy because he already had a group of players that had played together for sometime. If you look at Liverpool today, you can easily spot 4 or 5 starters who have just come into the team.

I actually did praise Bouazza in a previous post. What's wrong with performing well in a crap team. Should players from only the top sides be nominated then?