Dont think you read it correctly.
I didnt say i believe in predestination.
I said, salvation is personal.

And About those who i said might not be saved.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.ho thought they were saved..


James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I think you've not read it correctly or you jumped into your own conclusions

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:4‭-‬10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.3.4-10.ESV

And do you guys even know that to understand what Jesus, Paul or other apostles said in NT you need to fully understand the OT?

You don't just read NT and claimed to know it all. 😛

but but but some says OT is obsolete and such that law is devil's weapon


ohwai

Zaness. The question about killing is a bit too simplistic. It's like saying all soldiers are in trouble. Like it or not, when combat happens, it's either kill or be killed. Capturing their target is ideal. But ideal is called as an ideal for a reason.

I find it interesting in what he said about not being able to sin ZERO but can sin less. That is the reality.

Reply to BLUE :

Just quoting verse 28 in isolation will not do . OSAS believers are very quick to point to this verse as if salvation is unconditional. You are quoting out of context.




Do you see my point?


You must read the preceding verse.

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." - John 10:27-29


Please note the word follow in verse 27. It is a CONTINUOUS TENSE in the Greek and describes Jesus' sheep

The plural pronouns they and them in John 10:28 and 29 refer back to verse 27.

Hence, the only ones promised the wonderful never perish security in verses 28 and 29 are the ones who CONTINUE to follow Jesus!

No such never perish promise, either here or anywhere else in the Bible, is reserved for one who doesn't CONTINUE to follow Jesus, such as the backsliding.

That, however, is never the way the eternal security teachers cite John 10:28!

Here is an example of how an OSAS proponent (you!) wrongly understands John 10:28 :

Once a person is saved--He can never be taken out of the hand of Jesus. A saved person will always be bound to Christ.


Incredible spiritual harm has been done over the years by ignoring John 10:27 and reading into (distorting) verses 28 and 29.

Again, the no one can pluck them out of my hand and never perish promises are not there for a backslider.

Remember, verse 27 is an integral part of John 10:28 for it describes who shall never perish, that is, Jesus' sheep who continue to follow Him.

To omit verse 27 and/or the facts about the word follow is to change the meaning of Scripture!

Only God knows how many remained unrepentant and went to Hell thinking John 10:28 gave them a never perish salvation security in sin!

Such eternal security (OSAS) proponents who thought about repentance, if at all, wrongly thought it was for reward's sake, fellowship with God, etc., but certainly not salvation's sake.





Reply to GREEN :

I see an oxymoron. You contradict your own statements.



Murderers can go to Heaven because they're already saved? Bible verse please?

Anyway, the scope of your statement is too vast. I agree with Sophiera with her soldier analogy. What do you mean by this?

If you kill by choice, you're a murderer. Bible says murderers go to the LAKE of fire. Simple as.








Another oxymoron. Bible verse please?

I would just like to add, "Jesus answered, "It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Luke 4:12

True that we can never achieve sinless perfection in this life. True that we will also sin after coming to Christ.

BUT there is a clear distinction between continuous unrepentant sin & occasional accidental sinning. The conscience will tell you & the HS will convict.


e.g. u smash your thumb with a hammer while working & you swear out loud. You pray for forgiveness.

Tell me, what will your end be?



e.g. u fornicate with your gf on Monday & ask for forgiveness on Tues.

u fornicate again with her next Monday & you ask for forgiveness again. (actually, why even bother asking for forgiveness since you're already "Once Saved Always Saved?" )

Tell me, what will your end be?

See the above 2 scenarios? And it's not a matter of 'just losing rewards' at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Those refer to something else.


Anyway, you can't just barge into a discussion with just one verse, John 10:28 to overwrite all the other scripture verses that says Salvation is conditional.


REPLY to ORANGE :



Your CAPS is the typical argument that OSAS teachers use to justify their doctrine of eternal security.

They teach that those who can sin like crazy, even after making a profession of faith in Jesus, "were never really saved to begin with".

Very, very commonly used by defenders of OSAS.

Apostasy IS in the Bible. And backsliders DO die a spiritual death. Don't play-play.




p.s. you sudah kena OSAS poison very deep, deep

UW, if you're not happy, you come out, we settle outside OKAY??!!

You can bring along your pastor prince guneratnam or peter khong or whoever! I dun care!!!!

I promise to come alone & unarmed!!

I'll even make it convenient for you!!!

How bout that OWL place downstairs nxt to the Korean rest.? They serve the waffles there not bad. Slurp! slurp! Nyumm!

The overpriced olio oglio with sea bass not so good though






------------------------------------------




Hoka Nobasho please listen to this :



click here: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3104122216

ha ha

All I'm asking what do you understand on the sole purpose of the Law? Common Man. Just answer that if you don't want to answer what I asked you about the fields.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 30 2018, 07:40 PM

A 1-hour long audio is a bit too long to digest. Are you able to summarise what the audio is all about?

well UW,

do you agree with below statement?

"Christians no longer need to confess their sins. Because of grace and Jesus’ finished work on the Cross, all sins are now forgiven as soon as they are committed. There is no need to ever ask for forgiveness"

If one could follow Jesus continuously, why does one need God to protect him from not being plucked out?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jan 30 2018, 09:38 PM

Grace & Truth are not on the same side with the Law

John 1:17 (NIV) - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Good morning or night. I want to start by giving you the meaning or definition of Grace. Grace means unearned or unmerited favor/mercy of God. Something given not because you work for it but given to you out of the person's goodness, love or mercy.

Now that I have everyone's attention, I will begin to dispense a series of devotions, scripture exposition as what God deposited into my heart for the benefit and for edifying believers in Christ so that you will understand why Grace is the Gospel and why the Law cannot justify you. Before I continue, I just want to make clear, I'm against Sin, against chasing of wealth in Idolatry and against false doctrine. So do not write to me after this, I will not entertain persecution, insults, sarcastic remarks. I will only respond genuine and those who are open. Those who have followed me, I appreciate your friendship. Those who persecute me out of ignorant zeal, I forgive you but I will not respond to you any longer, neither read what you have to say, Bible tells me not to entertain any quarreling and the servant of the Lord must not quarrel.

The Laws of God was given through a servant who will not abide in the House of the Lord forever but GRACE and TRUTH came through the person of Jesus Christ, the Son who WILL abide in the House of the Lord Forever.* The Law was "GIVEN". But GRACE & TRUTH "CAME".

What this means is that one was given from a distance (to a servant)..where the cloud was dark with lightning. The place was so terrifying people was in fear. Even if an animal touches the foot of the place where the Law was given, that life will die.

The other "CAME"...personally, up close by the very person of God Himself. signifying mercy and love as being the main agenda.

I want to tell you straight, the Law was not God's main agenda for mankind. It came in "side ways" by stealth. If you check Romans 5:20, in the KJV..the word "The Law enter", the phrase "enter" in the Greek is pareiserchomai.

Check this link http://biblehub.com/greek/3922.htm

And you will know what I say is correct. In the Old Testament, hundreds of years before the Law was given, while the Israelite was travelling with God after the deliverance from Egypt. They murmured, complained all the way and none of them died. This very first phase of their journey with God was under the dispensation of God's Grace! Don't believe me, You can check this in the Bible, none of them died. It was only after the Law was given at mount Sinai, when they complained and murmured ...the very same sin, they died.

What is my point in all these?

God wants you to embrace Grace. Not the Law. Why? Because as I've said before, The Law was not God's main agenda but Grace is. Grace is not a teaching or a subject. If you meditate on John 1:17, by the Holy Spirit revelation, you will realize, GRACE is the very person of Christ..in other words, GRACE is the very person of God. This was demonstrated when Christ was here in the flesh. He dispense Grace wherever he went. The Ungodly could receive, the undeserving all receive his power and miracle. Did those who could receive..the ungodly and undeserving was obedient to God, Are they the type who had it all together? Were they "continuous" relationship with God? Answer is No.
Were they in Sin? Answer is Yes.

God's Grace is for the undeserving. The Religious one n well verse in scripture, ironically could not receive anything from God. And today we have people teaching..Oh you must have it all together, you MUST be in complete obedience else you will lose salvation, the reason why God doesn't answer prayers is because you were sinful and disobediant.

And YET all the ungodly and prostitutes, the one one who unscrupulous with money could all receive answered prayers from Christ. Why? Because they are ALL in the category of being qualified. That is the working power of God's Grace! Apostle Paul calls the Gospel, the Gospel of GRACE! (read Acts 20:24).

So do not allowed ignorant people to misled you. If you don't have it altogether, you can still receive from God as I have. Why? Answer is Grace!

But UW, does it mean, we can do whatever we want and sin like crazy and still receive God's Grace? I will answer this in the next devotion. Until then understand Grace is the main priority and God's main agenda not the Law. I will try to expound..what about obedience? And what is the purpose of God's Law in the next devotion, so continue to follow after this dear friends.

God Bless.


* Abide in the house forever is symbolic to the context of covenant. Does not mean Moses forfeited Heaven.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 1 2018, 09:49 AM

....

Elmer Towns (The Gospel of John: Believe and Live", :

The Greeks had three words for life, each with a different shade of meaning and emphasis. First, the term psuche referred to the self who was alive..John uses psuche as the life laid down by the good shepherd (10:11). Second, the word zoe in classical Greek normally referred to the essence or principle of life itself—the existence of life as opposed to death. The third word, bios, was used by Greek writers to describe one's manner of life and was almost exclusively used with reference to human life (such as biography). In this gospel, John uses the word zoe as spiritual life, and it often is accompanied by the adjective aionios (“eternal”). As aionios is also an attribute of God, it has been suggested that eternal life is nothing short of the life of God. [/b]

The result of faith in Christ is eternal life. John associates the adjective aionios with the noun zoe in 17 verses in this gospel. The phrase means a life that is endless, beginning at the moment of faith (5:24) and never ending. But John makes the phrase refer to more than endless existence. It also involves a sharing of the divine life (5:26; 17:3). (32)




This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 2 2018, 10:45 AM

ooch that is hard to swallow for those folks who want to reign in THIS LIFE and have their best life NOW.

Just random musing before sleep... The authors of Psalms addresses God as an actual person. Very personal letters towards someone. Really emotional too.

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This was written to believers which are already saved.. sin is an ongoing thing.. you will still sin even after you're saved.. but salvation is permanent..

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son / Lest He be angry and you perish from the way; / For His anger may suddenly be kindled. /

😉


Let us kiss Him !

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 5 2018, 08:21 AM

There are certain aspects i agree.. such as the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 12:6,7
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Correct. But I rather think there's a gap of clarification between what is your term of salvation.
You are right to say, when a person is saved, there is a repentance of sin..

Ephesians 4:22
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Yes. These are the fruits of one that is saved.

However, your argument is to backsliden christians.. that their salvation is at stake?
Revelations 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

What does the verse above tell you? and from the verses above, what will God do if His children are backsliding?
Salvation is permanent for many reasons supported by many verses (although you've mentioned its quoted out of context.. im not sure how how else you took those verses into your understanding)

I understand its plural. Yes.
So what do you understand about John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
What do you understand when Jesus says, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

By theory, if a person kills after the person is saved.. his salvation is intact, IF salvation is true in the beginning.
If a person sins after salvation, salvation is still intact.
Is sin quantified in the Bible or categorized? Sin is still sin regardless if its murder or merely a lie.

1 John 1:8 - 1 John 2:2.

If you're saved and you lie by choice, are you bound to the lake of fire? According to the law, you don't even need to lie to sin, even a thoughts is a sin..

Lastly, If backsliders die a spiritual death.. then basically you're just saying God is a liar..

Romans 10:9,13
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did the Bible say.. you shall be saved conditionally? or you shall be saved.. as long as you continuously call upon the name of the Lord?
While you ponder on this,

What about Revelations 2?
Did God say, all of the church of Ephesus shall be sent to the lake of fire?

Okays what about Lot?
Questionaire..Is Lot today now in the lake of fire or at the bosom of Abraham?
Solomon? Did he not backslided too?
What about Jonah?

p/s: I think you've ignored a number of bible verses about salvation..

This post has been edited by zanness: Feb 5 2018, 09:00 AM

Grace & Truth are not on the same side with the Law Part 2

John 1:17 (NIV) - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Our loving Saviour said something profound; "....you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." When Christ said that, He said it to the Jews who already knew the Law at heart. Jewish children were required to learn and memorize the Torah (The Law) by the age of 5. So obviously Jesus wasn't referring to the Law that will set them free, because they already knew that! It's redundant to tell them something they were already subscribing to! What was He referring to? If you look at the main scripture text for today, Grace is the answer!

Under Law in the Old Testament God demands righteousness from Man. The Old Covenant is about the performance of Man, Thou Shall not...., Thou Shall not. The focus is on "Thou". And Yet for 2000 Years, nobody could keep God's Law consistently throughout the person's Life. That is why there were animal sacrifices, the sacrifice of bulls and goats to temporary cover the person's sin, telling us the reality...that Man could not keep God's Law. See God is a Good God, He still provided a way out, even though He knew Man could not keep his Laws. If God were to play strict adherence, meaning If there is no animal sacrifice for sins, multitudes would have died without mercy. And we have ignorant God haters who labelled God as being a blood God who demands sacrifices, quoting this demean God without understanding the context.

When Christ came in the New Testament, It's as If God is saying to us..Do you know consent that you were unable to keep my laws by your own strength? Because in the New Testament, God said this.

Romans 3: 13-18 (NIV)
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Note on "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness"..we still see this live in action even today, even here. People are still being sarcastic, insulting others...a sad reality even among believers. "This actually testifies once again, Man could not fulfill God's Laws perfectly. If anyone could, For God to send Christ and to say what He wants to say in Romans 3:13-18 would be an irony. And Sadly we have people who propagate, we need to keep the law and the irony, they can't. They more they enforce the Law, they more failures happens and sadly people don't realize this truth.

Before I continue, I want to be clear, I am for God's Law but I am for it for the sole and original purpose God designed his law. God's Law is Holy, it is severe and it is unbending. I am not antinomian.
Today we have people trying to mix law and grace in Christianity, removing the severity of God's Law and making Grace to be of no freedom! They mix and mashed it up, making God's Law something bearable (bringing it down to our level, something the pharisee did)...we can keep it even though not Perfect but it's alright, quoting God's grace as their defense. Many Christians do not understand the purpose of God's Law. They will say things like...We don't murder, We don't steal...that is keeping God's Law, yet at the same time, their mouth full cursing and bitterness? Who is not guilty of these? Who can dare to claim they can keep God's Law and yet in their heart so much bitterness and contradiction? Aren't we seeing something familiar here? Something Christ exposed and said...outside looks so clean like white washed tomb and yet inside full of decay and death?

I am not elevating myself, we are all on the same ground. I have to pull this out for you to understand, you have not understood why Grace and Law cannot mix. To Mix it in the gospel is to do something God never intended.

Well what about.... Christ said, He didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it! Well and THAT was what He did! But do you realize? Only Christ is qualified to fulfill God's Law? Why? Because He is the only one who is without sin? Anyone who has sin in his life and tries to fulfill the Law, God rejects? So that verse is not meant for any of us.

What about the part that says..If anyone teaches to set aside the law will be called the least? What about when Christ said about...Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, you can't enter Heaven? When it comes to Faith without works is dead, the Pharisees have plenty of works to show for they were very meticulous to the detail! And how can anyone beat the leaders, the deacons, the pastor's righteousness of that day in age? It's like saying you need to be better than your pastor to enter Heaven.

If one were to think deep about this, knowing one's own weakness of the tendency to hate others, to so lovingly wanting to trigger others, to so lovingly wanting to insult/demean others/ to so lovingly couldn't stop surfing for pornography......he/she should relent submission and concede, He or She cannot.

With that being said, now comes the main point of this devotion.

God's Law was given birth, designed for the sole purpose of...Bringing Man to the End of Himself. See this verse below to which I said, many would missed it and did not understand:

Romans 5:20 (NIV) - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase...........

Do you see that? If God's Law was brought in so that the tresspas might increase, how can you say you can keep God's Law? Think for a good 5 minutes before continuing.
..So that the trespass might increase, but I must keep God's Law. Both statement is a contradiction. No matter how you try to rationalize, both doesn't gel. For accurate theological exposition, this verse explains it.

Romans 7:8 (NIV) - But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Do you see that? The Key phrase "Produced in me..."? Read that again.."PRODUCED IN ME..."

Do read the part, where Paul said something about the good I want to do but unable to, the evil I don't want to but end up doing..? That is the EXACT work of the 10 commandments! Surprise you didn't know this? If you can understand what Romans 7:8 is saying then you will begin to understand this

1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. Take a few minutes to digest this.

but UW, what about obedience? If God's Law is meant to increase trespass, then where do I look to, for moral obedience?

Well the answer is (obviously not the Law) but to look to Jesus Christ, isn't that the entire theme of the New Covenant? No I stand corrected, it's the entire theme of the Bible from OT to NT! And what did Christ "CAME" to bring? Answer is Grace and Truth! Truth stands on the same side of Grace as what the main scripture verse says above! Grace is the answer for "Right Living".

How? Well the Bible did say..to keep in step with the Holy Spirit, or to follow the Holy Spirit. Why? Because we all want the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Why Again? Because against the fruits of the Holy Spirit, there is no Law!

What is following the Holy Spirit? Is it back to keeping God's Law? Answer is no. How do we get the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Is it by us being obedient to God's Law? Noticed Self control is part of the Fruits? Well if you could get the fruits by your obedience, it's no longer call fruits of the "Holy Spirit" but Fruits of 'yourself" or "Man"? Isn't this obvious enough? Well you can argue, it's not you but the Holy Spirit when you obey, well I will argue Fruits of the HS doesn't come by your exerted will power or strength. If it doesn't come from you your obedience, then it's something you are not conscious of. If it's something you are conscious of, then it's not originated from God but yourself because you are the one producing it.

So what is the solution?

We will continue this in Part 3. Suffice for now, I need you to understand the Sole Purpose of God's Law.

God Bless.