We have been given the grace of Faith and the spirit of believe in the miracles and power of our Lord Jesus.




This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 08:59 AM

This Maldonado is co founder of king Jesus ministry and mega church in Miami?


Not that I don't believe God miracle to heal, just that I don't believe it will come via a fake teacher who called himself 'apostle' and preach a rather extreme version of prosperity gospel.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Jul 3 2017, 09:12 AM

What did he say about prosperity?

For example he preach you can 'activate' God's word and the power of 'redemption' by honoring God with Your first fruit of income. He said, fasting of the first fruit has the power of multiplication... every time you honour God first.... God will say that his money, his finance is protected because he honor the God first


Which is entirely unbiblical

Okay, then.....What is Proverbs 3:9-10?

I believe you need to read the whole chapter

The emphasis is to fear God and seek wisdom


My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments, for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you. Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord , and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. My son, do not despise the Lord 's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called blessed. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion, and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. Then you will walk on your way securely, and your foot will not stumble. If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"—when you have it with you. Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you. Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord , but the upright are in his confidence. The Lord 's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
Proverbs 3:1‭-‬35 ESV
http://bible.com/59/pro.3.1-35.ESV

Correct we need to fear God and seek wisdom, isn't this proverb a wisdom? Even verse 9-10 of chapter 3? You cannot disregard what it says there.....

For me I don't pick and choose which one, I take all of it. But even then..Verse 9 and 10 states....

that God promise to supply more than enough...to be filled with plenty...that is multiplication, no matter how I want to twist or turn it's definition, that is what it says.

Are we at the liberty to choose which verse apply and which doesn't when it comes to wisdom?

Edit:...I think we can..but does that negate it's truth?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 09:53 AM

Hi,

Can you pls answer questions as below:

1) y God ask Saul to kill soldiers, men, women, children, infants and even animals in Samuel? Soldiers i understand because they are enemies but y other innocent beings?

2) y Abraham's nephew's wife become salt just looking back how the angels destroyed the city? Like what is the purpose of turning her to be salt? The only reason is probably disobedience bcoz angel asked them not to look back but why does it matter? and even it does, why turn to her to salt bcoz who not surprised/shocked and turn their head naturally bcoz suddenly got very loud explosion?

3) why jesus didnt say anything in old testament? He's god and was there since beginning of the time, right? why he didnt say anything like god to moses and other prophets? basically he seems like not there until new testament come and said he is there. why god didn't mention jesus and he got a son in old testament?

4) read some christianity thread in other thread and some christian themselves said xxx version of bible is better than some yyy version. some even said some verses aren't in yyy or zzz version and tats why xxx version is the best. In that case, why do u still think bible is reliable bcoz didnt this already fit wat muslims say bible has been altered?

so far these are the questions wat i can think of. probably i will ask more when i read more of the bible.

tq

This post has been edited by BlueTicket: Jul 3 2017, 09:49 AM

I believe you get the priority wrong because we should fear God and based on principle that everything we own is from God. So when we do offering we merely give back portion of what God give us.


Jesus teach us to give and hope nothing in return


And therefore cornerstone is to fear God as if you fear God you wouldn't hope for return from you offering by treating God like you atm machine


Blessing of God is always bountiful but it is not always in form of money

Which verse did Jesus say that?

Did He say that when we give towards our fellow neighbors?enemies(human) or towards God?

As far as I can find...most likely you took this from

Luke 6:35 (NIV) - But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The irony is....Jesus tells us to expect nothing from a fellow human being (granted) but Jesus never says to expect nothing from God. In fact the irony is that God will reward us great. Can you tell that to God almighty, that you expect nothing from Him when this verse says "Great will be the reward"?

I think this fearing God in tying to expect nothing from God is like worshipping a fearful God which is not how Jesus depict as a Father. The Father that Jesus revealed is one who celebrates with a fatten calf and put shows and ring on our finger as his child.

Don't get angry with me but I think this doctrine of "fearing God and expect nothing from God" is not biblical because the Bible tells otherwise and if you say we should fear God then we need to accept what God says in Proverbs 3:9-10. Else it's a contradiction.

**

I also understand your concern where we need to have a proper reverence for God and not treat God like an ATM machine but if God's own word says He will cause our barns to overflow...who are we to reject God's own saying? You're like saying we need to fear God and yet reject his word of promise as well which is a contradiction, imo.

For me, a proper reverence for God is also to accept his blessings, acknowledging we need it and not reject it because we think we can handle life. God never says to expect nothing from Him, Jesus was careful to point it that we are to expect nothing in return from our enemies...Never from God. We need to be clear and accurate on this.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:58 AM

True, not every reward is about money but to "not expect reward from God" and to "expect nothing" is a form of self righteousness...meaning to say you can carve out life on your own. You can handle life on your own, you don't need God's reward or grace or providence....That to me....is very self righteous. Truth to be told.....we need God in every area of our live, for some people..it's strength, for others health...for some it's finance. I think it's not right to tell others to Not expect anything from God because God is the one who is all sufficient and needs nothing when we are the one who are in need of everything which only God can fulfill.


To propagate, just give and expect nothing from God is like saying, God I don't need you because I can stand on my own in life. That is relying on self strength which as far as I know..God hates.



Matthew 7:11 (NIV)- If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (This verse tells me God loves to give good gift if you ask, this is far from anything to imply to expect nothing because "doctrines' teach us God doesn't necessarily want to give you, this verse debunks that idea.)

Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (This verse tells me Faith MUST believe God rewards those who seeks Him..hence to expect reward IS BIBLICAL. *Note I'm not talking about money but I'm talking about "expecting reward from God", the expectancy is biblical)


Another question to ask...Is it wrong to expect nothing from God? My answer is no, nothing wrong but also...don't criticize others when other people are blessed abundantly as cult or heretic, as it would not be fair to enforce what you believe in on others who needs God deliverance from their place of lack.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:47 AM

1.
God alone has the right to dispense Life and Death, secondly God has an eternal view of things, what He does is always according to his omniscience knowledge.

We may accuse God of being evil to dispense destruction on infants and animal but bear in mind, that is according to our limited knowledge and understanding.
God commanded Saul to destroy everything of the Amalekites because of their long feud and hatred of the Jews and their repeated attempts to destroy God’s people.
Infants may grow up to take revenge and continue the feud. Animals are destroyed possible because of being abomination sacrificed to their gods which from Bible POV are no gods but demons.

2.
Don't know, why Salt.

3. In Genesis, God said "let us.." Us there is plural. Jesus was never revealed in the Old Testament plainly because He was set to be Saviour after time took it's course for Man to try on their own performance.

4. Yes I do think the Bible is reliable regardless of translation. Translation is to help us understand better hence why there are many translations. the authenticity of the Bible is not because of these translations but because there are thousands of copies of the original manuscript known as dead seas scrolls. The translation version translate from these manuscripts. How to know which is accurate and which is not? Look at all the versions, it's readily available online. All of them. Compare them to the hebrew and greek.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:52 AM

1. If tat is justified by saying tat we duno wat God is thinking and he has eternal view of things then dun you think same reason can be used on cult as well? Yes, they bring many destruction to society but we duno what God is thinking and he has eternal view.

And why Jesus teach something so different like love your enemies? last time ppl also mistreated christians and even Jesus himself but why didnt he ask them to kill all of them? this is what i dun understand.

3. If plural, then why is there only one God. Do you mind to explain about Trinity? I dont really understand about this. Based on my understanding, Jesus =/= God but you can say he created the world althought it was God (Jehovah) who created the world. Similarly, it's also ok to say God himself came to world and redeemed human when it's Jesus who came to the world.

New question:

Why did God appoint Saul as king and then regret? Didn't he already know what will happen? For example, he wanted to destroy human and then create rainbow as a convenent that he will not destroy humanity. Then, he shudn't have bring flood if he know?

1.
Why must it be based on us...what we know for it to be justified? The matter of Life and Death is not even in our control.
I never said it's justified because we don't know how God thinks, For me, it's justified because God has the sovereign right to give and take away life as creator, plus He has omniscience knowledge.

Think of it this way, there are people in your life that you look up to..perhaps because the person has more knowledge, so you look to this person for trusted advice or professional opinion.

God is greater than all the wisest person alive, CEOs, Kings, Queens, Prime Ministers, President of every country combined in power and knowledge, He knows what He's doing. The Bible puts in a narrative..where even the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (1 Corinthians 1:25), to help us understand, our conclusion of things can never surpasses God's wisdom.

In the Old Testament, God treats people according to how they performed. Obey and God will Bless, Failure to obey there will be judgement. That is the Old Covenant. I'm sure you heard of the 10 commandments. Here is one thought for you to think. Israel have not even heard what are the 10 commandment and yet they emphatically told God, All that God commanded, they will do it. How can you promise something to God on something you've never even heard yet? Yet after the 10 commandment was given...there is so much death because it proves that Man cannot. The vanity of Man.

In the New Covenant, God reveals his Heart, He wants to treat us based on his Grace, therefore there is a great switch on why the difference. Actually in the Old Testament God was ALREADY showing the treatment of Grace but because Israel boast...ALL that God commanded, they will do it....that caused God to back away. He respect your decision, if that is what man wanted, so by it they will be gauged...performance base.



3. Nobody can understand it, it's a divine mystery, just have to accept what Jesus said in John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one. Jesus repeatedly said, He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him (John 14:11). That is unison God, one and the same yet different person.


Actually God never wanted to appoint a human king for Israel. They were the one who insisted and wanted a human king. God has Jesus in mind to come to rule them. Yes God regretted..because there was so much prevalent evil, there was intermarriage between fallen angels and human, Man was corrupted. He wanted to wipe out the entire human race because of the intermix corruption, but still relented and allow Human to live on through Noah because Noah and his family was righteous in the sense they were pure human breed and they had faithful relationship with God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 02:22 PM

Well, let me show you something I read which I think is pretty reasonable


quote



Heresy = Bible verses twisted just a couple of degrees off center



If someone desires to give the church a certain percentage of their net or gross income, I honor that as their right and privilege. As for me, I promote that all Christians should give generously and cheerfully.



But first, a full disclosure – I believe that tithing was an Old Covenant rite by which about 23% of goods, usually agricultural products, were given to God for the maintenance of the priests, for the poor. I see no comparable requirement for the church, which is supposed to “honor” its leaders (1 Tim 5:17) and make voluntary pledges to special projects (Paul’s Jerusalem Fund). [1]



I have no argument with tithers so long as they have no argument with me. And I’m not speaking here about legalistic tithing or carnal non-tithing.



But in the past few weeks I have found people preaching what must be held up and labeled perversions of the gospel and of the practice of tithing. I’m not even talking about the protection racketeers like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and their ilk on TBN, who constantly pound home the gospel of writing a check to their ministry. I’m speaking of heresy – a term I use infrequently and, I hope, with precision. Let’s look at three examples of Tithe-as-Heresy:



Example One: Non-Tithers are Under God’s Curse



Usually people try to dodge around the implications of what they are teaching, but here’s a source that expressed itself frankly:





If you don’t pay tithe, the Bible says you are robbing God and you are under a curse. This curse cannot be removed by your good works or the fact that you are born again. You can only reverse this curse if you start paying tithe. Tithe is the only key to prosperity and God’s blessing. The Bible is very clear about this and there is no way around it. [2]



They add a point that helps the church’s fiscal status, should the pastor turns out to be a wolf:





When Pastors misuse your tithe, do not lose faith in God. Continue to pay your tithe…



This should be a comfort to Creflo Dollar, given the regular claims that he plunders his ministry’s offerings.



The problem is that, if someone is going to apply words such as “curse” to non-tithers, they should give them their full weight. Being under God’s curse does not mean “you won’t prosper as you should”. It means he has condemned you, damned you. (See Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 1:8-9; Heb 6:8; Rev 22:3; Rom 9:3 – accursed by God = “cut off from Christ”).



Which leads us to our next permutation.



Example Two: Non-Tithers Inevitably Go to Hell



In an earlier post I mentioned Angélica Zambrano, a young woman from Ecuador who claimed to have visited heaven and hell and brought back information about who ended up where. [3] In this modern-day Dante’s Inferno, Angélica found out that non-tithers all end up in the flames. One young man told her:





“When you return to Earth, tell all those people who don’t want to give their tithes and offerings, not to steal from the Lord, otherwise, they’ll wind up in Hell, and no thief will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I knew the Holy Word, now I regret it and realize I robbed the Lord.” (Malachi 3:8) “Tell the people when they give to God, give the Lord with true love.” (2 Cor 9:7) This man kept pleading, “Lord forgive me”, and the Lord replied, “It is too late, there is no opportunity for you.” [4]



So, salvation is not through faith in Christ, but through Christ plus tithing.



Example Three: Tithing is the Gospel



This is the most horrific I have heard, but the month isn’t over yet and something worse might show up. “Apostle” Guillermo Maldonado of Miami [5] teaches that the “original sin” in the garden was the failure of Adam and Eve to tithe. Let me quote parts of what he says, to show that I am not imagining this:



“The original sin of Eden was stealing the tithe…The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents or symbolizes the tithe…And God said to him, Don’t touch what is mine…Everything else you can eat, you can enjoy…In the Garden is where man became indebted to God…The tithe is what we owe to God, it’s the debt when Adam ate, a debt began, so when you give the tithe, you aren’t doing anything by paying a debt.” (He goes on to say that God won’t bless people if they only tithe, they have to give more than that to even begin to be financially blessed).



This is about as far from the gospel as we could go – we would have to rewrite Paul’s teaching to “even as by one man’s failure to tithe, we all sinned, so by Apostle Maldonado coming to tell us to tithe, we will live.”



The word “heresy” should not be applied to tithers or non-tithers, not if they follow the gospel. As a professor explained it to us many years ago, denominational distinctives are what distinguish Christian from Christian; heresy is what distinguishes Christian from not-Christian. The three examples above are not-Christian, not-gospel, not-True God. Most heretics you run across quote the Bible plenty. But when they twist its meaning just a few degrees of dead center, voilà, you have a whole new religion.



Again, if you believe that giving a certain percentage to God is right for you, then do so, gladly. And if not, don’t – that is your right. But let us never let anyone take a doctrine like tithing as a means of financial extortion; spiritual abuse; or sacrilege against God.

I'm quite familiar with such writings and critics and I've studied quite a bit on tithing. Tithing was never just an old covenant rites. It is something that even Jesus sanctions in the New Testament (because Him being God), He is the one who instituted it. As for the matter of the curse, if you study the Bible...even in the New Testament, God calls money as Unrighteous Mammon. DO you know why?

I see

then we have nothing to discuss further if you can ignore what the like Maldonado has done to gospel.

If what He does is wrong, God will deal with Him, If He is fake, the people who was healed through his ministry will come out and say something on the fake healing.

I'm not concern about Him, I'm only concern on what was said on God's word by the critics and by Him, is it in alignment? I did ask you a question because I rather you understand the Bible rather than what critic says.

You're not discussion on the core problem, right now you're just concern on what the critic says about feeding wolves pastor in sheep clothing but the core problem is not really addressed, what was said about tithing is not entire accurate, tithing is sanctioned by Jesus in the New Testament, so it's not just an old testament rite, it's in the entire Bible.

It's up to you if you rather listen to critics rather than narrowing down what the Bible says...It's a simple question after all, even you can answer.

I will just leave this here, for christians to have a balanced view on these things.



10 videos in total.

I know UW will be unhappy with this, but I'm pleading to all christians to discern and not be deceived by these charlatans.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jul 4 2017, 10:53 AM

I find that people who went to the Rally will disagree with your views.

I'm unhappy because of propaganda like this because it causes Christians to draw back and live and practise "safe christianity" where they do not believe in God for miracles anymore because fear of being disappointed and hurt when the problem has been solely on the stuff written on propagation which thrive on doubt..much judgment and criticism fling at people causing the focus from believing in God for miracles in believing in people to doubt God. This is why I'm unhappy, you're right.

People hardly read the bible for themselves to understand it's truth anymore but they readily believe in articles of judgement similar like yours.

Focus has been diverted from Living Christ(meaning we can have manifested grace in reality) to which pastor is sheep which person is a fake, etc. Focus is on people, no wonder Faith is stifled.

I'm sad that you do not understand this.

The kind of Faith that the people of the Bible lived through has a lot of disappointment with God but the Faith to believe in was quite supernatural and demands to move beyond our comfort zone of "safe" believe.

So what happens is that Christianity has dwindled to just believing in Salvation so people just hold on in suffering until they die.


For me it's basically what Satan wants because A no victory but mundane Christian life helps his cause. But when a christian life is filled the power of the divine Lord God Almighty, those break bondage, God delivering them from held circumstances this type causes damages to Satan's kingdom in contrast.

I won't delete your video because I want Christians to know also what is wrong with this sort of videos.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 10:38 PM