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> izzit safe to add additional unit aircond at home Chat

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Richard
post Dec 26 2016, 10:32 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Dec 26 2016, 10:21 PM)
true, inverter is safer, on this issue.

but also for basic units that is not 20years old,
the compressor motor drive circuits also got ICs, current limiters and various diodes le.

and! when you turn on the aircon, the compressor dont kick in immediately.. its usually 5-10 seconds later than the blower unit starts to run.. and for that 0.1 second during motor start you dont draw 10amps and blow everything on your drive circuit PCB!
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We're not talking about a single unit compressor.. The issue is maximum demand..

The maximum current load as in he already running 3 of his existing aircons couple that to the existing running load (refrigerator, lights, sockets, etc) and now his compressor kicks in..

This transient inrush will cause arching to the mcb's contact points..

It doesn't have to happen immediately when the contacts are still new or the spring tension is still good.. This will continue until a weak link in that electrical system fails..

You are an intelligent person.. What would your advice be to this situation?
ar188
post Dec 26 2016, 10:34 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Dec 26 2016, 10:32 PM)
We're not talking about a single unit compressor.. The issue is maximum demand..

The maximum current load as in he already running 3 of his existing aircons couple that to the existing running load (refrigerator, lights, sockets, etc) and now his compressor kicks in..

This transient inrush will cause arching to the mcb's contact points..

It doesn't have to happen immediately when the contacts are still new or the spring tension is still good.. This will continue until a weak link in that electrical system fails..

You are an intelligent person.. What would your advice be to this situation?
*
use original european brand MCB!. all the concerns you mention are valid ...and using original branded components should perform at rated spec over time. biggrin.gif
ar188
post Dec 26 2016, 10:37 PM

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QUOTE(haturaya @ Dec 26 2016, 10:31 PM)
Borrow from my brother. His company have some project with TNB that uses FLIR.  thumbup.gif

So far, everything normal. No sign of wiring overheating even though 4 ac are on simultaneously.

And I use this to check each AC current / load. All good  thumbup.gif

I'm not worried about lighting load as 100% LED light use throughout my house. Too little load. thumbup.gif
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yes i got exactly this lelong unit.. biggrin.gif haha

am surprised 1HP aircon doesnt draw much energy if you set temp at 26-27C compared to 20-22C range!
haturaya
post Dec 26 2016, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Dec 26 2016, 10:37 PM)
yes i got exactly this lelong unit.. biggrin.gif  haha

am surprised 1HP aircon doesnt draw much energy if you set temp at 26-27C compared to 20-22C range!
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Yup, setting temperature plays big role too. As for me, 24-25C is the sweet spot. Comfy, not too cold, not too warm. Just nice. 3 bedroom ac 9pm till 6am daily. Monthly TNB bill between RM270 (rainy season) - RM350 (hot / dry season) thumbup.gif

This post has been edited by haturaya: Dec 26 2016, 10:41 PM
herojack41
post Dec 26 2016, 10:41 PM

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QUOTE(haturaya @ Dec 26 2016, 10:27 PM)
I've been using 4 inverter ac (1x2hp & 3 x 1hp) for the  past 4 years. No issue except have to pay a lot to TNB  whistling.gif  Just make sure it's connected from different MCB.

No sign of wiring overheating or what so ever.  icon_rolleyes.gif  (Checked with FLIR thermal camera)
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wah...ni next level

thermal camera also come out
QUOTE(ar188 @ Dec 26 2016, 10:37 PM)
yes i got exactly this lelong unit.. biggrin.gif  haha

am surprised 1HP aircon doesnt draw much energy if you set temp at 26-27C compared to 20-22C range!
*
hmm.gif but2....26 ~27 macam langsung tak sejuk bang
ar188
post Dec 26 2016, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(herojack41 @ Dec 26 2016, 10:41 PM)
wah...ni next level

thermal camera also come out

hmm.gif but2....26 ~27 macam langsung tak sejuk bang
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just giving a bigger contrast in power consumption between the 2 settings. but as mention above 24-25c is ok, compressor dont kick in so often too which might draw more current and bigger tnb bill.
haturaya
post Dec 26 2016, 10:43 PM

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QUOTE(herojack41 @ Dec 26 2016, 10:41 PM)
wah...ni next level

thermal camera also come out

hmm.gif but2....26 ~27 macam langsung tak sejuk bang
*
Borrow from my brother. Can't afford to buy one. FLIR super expensive. shakehead.gif

Try not to use thick blanket. Just thin blanket will do. 24-25C is nice setting. Also depends on the room. Make sure no gap that cold air can 'escape' whistling.gif
squarepilot
post Dec 26 2016, 10:58 PM

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QUOTE(ar188 @ Dec 26 2016, 09:54 PM)
oh come on, i was running 2KW  server (4 GPU each server 950W power draw x 2)  thro a 13A extension cord for 2 months 24/7. also use power meter to check.
dont simply scare monger la. use science to count how many Amp per 1HP aircon.. 40amps is alot for 240V, thats nearly 10KW of power.
as long as each 1HP aircon is on one electrical branch it should be ok.
only downside to my extensive server usage was my TNB was over 1.5k per month that two months..  laugh.gif
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40A as main breaker Tnb incoming size. Branch MCB is rated 15a for old ones and 20/30a for newer MCB.

I already calculate on my previous post nicely in my previous reply to TS. You can counter check if there is any problem.

He wants to add additional 2 hp. That's my main concern

This post has been edited by squarepilot: Dec 26 2016, 11:02 PM
SUSSirmacai
post Dec 26 2016, 11:05 PM

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4 aircond? Can no problem. But is it same time using all of the aircond?
herojack41
post Dec 26 2016, 11:46 PM

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QUOTE(haturaya @ Dec 26 2016, 10:43 PM)
Borrow from my brother. Can't afford to buy one. FLIR super expensive.  shakehead.gif

Try not to use thick blanket. Just thin blanket will do. 24-25C is nice setting. Also depends on the room. Make sure no gap that cold air can 'escape'  whistling.gif
*
laugh.gif hahaha ok la

no money to ensure no gap now
cangkui
post Dec 27 2016, 11:19 AM

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QUOTE(dapfanbodo @ Dec 25 2016, 08:54 PM)
You install 3phase electric when you need 3phase power equipment not because you need to increase max load of electrical appliances.

Don't simply teach if you donno.
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do you mind to elaborate on the "3 phase power equipment".. what are the things that needed for 3 phase? thanks in advance... im noob in electrical..
TSdarien99
post Dec 27 2016, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Dec 26 2016, 10:14 PM)
You understand .. but no one knows if he has an inverter unit or a conventional DOL start and that pictures shows  a DB with 24 SP mcb's single phase..

I have never seen a single phase DB with so many mcb's..

Add to the fact they're all non branded components easily means if that RCD is defective any surge inrush current from a DOL motor will fuse any of those mcbs  short circuit and start an electrical fire..

And it's not all soft start.. There's definitely more conventional DOL AC motors out there than inverters..
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u mean a DB with 24 SP mcbs is pretty rare ah? is that mean install another aircond sure got no problem? my DB can handle it? icon_question.gif
Revamperz
post Dec 27 2016, 11:29 AM

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my house 1 phase 7 aircons + autogate. still alive here. true story.
Richard
post Dec 27 2016, 12:53 PM

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QUOTE(darien99 @ Dec 27 2016, 11:28 AM)
u mean a DB with 24 SP mcbs is pretty rare ah? is that mean install another aircond sure got no problem? my DB can handle it?  icon_question.gif
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I suppose so but difficult to isolate if there's a problem ..

The standard practice is to split the load into 2 DB's zones both with a DP RCD protection..

Example :
1.

Say you have a double storey house.. Bottom is one primary DB and 1st floor the Secondary DB

KWH meter to 40A DP (double pole) Isolator split to two 40A DP RCD's (two DB's) with 14 Way outgoing mcb's each..

That way if there's a fault its easier to identify problem mcb circuit..

It's also easier to ammeter clamp on to check the maximum demand current at a time everyone is home kitchen cooking, hot water shower and living room ac on at the same time ..

The peak maximum demand bell curve is usually at around 7am and 7pm for residential..

2.

Another way if it's a single storey is to zone the house into front and back areas and rearrange the wiring accordingly..

Seeing that you already have so many circuits its actually very simple to identify lighting and power ....

Then divide into separate zones and DB .. Both DB's can be next to each other but independently isolated in case of a fault..
max_cavalera
post Dec 27 2016, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(darien99 @ Dec 25 2016, 10:03 PM)
living hall one is 1.5hp, my room 1hp, another room 1.5hp, plan to get another 2hp aircond, normally 2~3 units at the same time, but if got relatives come, will on 4 units at the same time  hmm.gif
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Wow ur electricity bill one mo th how much bro
TSdarien99
post Dec 27 2016, 01:04 PM

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QUOTE(max_cavalera @ Dec 27 2016, 12:57 PM)
Wow ur electricity bill one mo th how much bro
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won't exceed rm300 laugh.gif
LaiN87
post Dec 27 2016, 08:51 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Dec 26 2016, 09:27 PM)
ok..

3 phase supply properly balanced across each phase means no current flows through the Neutral..  The neutral only returns the unbalance current across the phases..

11KV transmission lines is only 3 wires.. It is distributed in Delta with all phase current balanced.. Only when step down by transformer from Delta 11kV/433V Star is where the neutral is introduced where the Neutral is earthed..

From Transformer it goes to a Feeder pillar where there will be an Earth fault protection device before it gets distributed to residential properties where is must also be earthed at the DB.. This is known as a T-T (Terra-Terra) system..

The usual tail into a residential landed property is only 2x25mm(60A)  or 2x16mm2(40A) Aluminium cable which only provides you the fuse rated max demand load which is a slow blow high rupture capacity fuse..

This maximum demand can easily be exceeded by the high inrush starting current of inductive motors (your aircon motor)..

3 Phase is the name of an electrical supply.. It can be 3 wire (2 phase lines plus Neutral) or 4 wire (3 Phase lines Plus Neutral) supply..

Single Phase is the name of a electricity supply of a 2 wire (one phase plus Neutral) supply..

If in doubt please get a competent electrical contractor to verify the existing maximum demand to check that your wiring can handle the electrical load..

You can easily overload (think electrical fire) your existing wiring if you change your protection fuse to a higher rating without knowing your maximum demand..

What I am saying is basic electrical common knowledge to all electricians..

If you don't understand what I'm saying please talk to an electrical person who knows something about maximum demand and how to use a clamp on ammeter..

Electricity is not your friend .. It is a known killer held in a copper prison just waiting to kill you..
*
3 phase supply properly balanced across each phase means no current flows through the Neutral.. The neutral only returns the unbalance current across the phases..
You can try to balance all the feeders you want but in the house it will never be balanced.

This maximum demand can easily be exceeded by the high inrush starting current of inductive motors (your aircon motor)..
That's why I am saying. Unless all aircons are turning on at the same exact time, it's not going to burn anything.
It's back to the question I'm telling that doesn't mean if you have 6 air-cons you would need to immediately convert into 3 phase supply.
Especially now with inverter based air-con, it will not only be 0-1 (off-on) which contributes to the high inrush.

In the end, the electrical contractor might just want money and ask you to convert and doesn't think in your best interest.

3 Phase is the name of an electrical supply.. It can be 3 wire (2 phase lines plus Neutral) or 4 wire (3 Phase lines Plus Neutral) supply..
I don't think you know your basic electrical common knowledge as well. My fundamental might be flawed cos might gave back some to the Uni but I don't think you're right either.
3 phase can only mean 3 phase. It can only mean 3 phase 3 wire (3 phase without neutral) or 3 phase 4 wire (3 phase with neutral).

Electricity is not your friend .. It is a known killer held in a copper prison just waiting to kill you..
Agreed.

Some readings for others: http://www.renorepairs.my/library/electric...d-single-phase/

This post has been edited by LaiN87: Dec 27 2016, 08:52 PM
Richard
post Dec 27 2016, 10:04 PM

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QUOTE(LaiN87 @ Dec 27 2016, 08:51 PM)

3 Phase is the name of an electrical supply.. It can be 3 wire (2 phase lines plus Neutral) or 4 wire (3 Phase lines Plus Neutral) supply..
I don't think you know your basic electrical common knowledge as well. My fundamental might be flawed cos might gave back some to the Uni but I don't think you're right either.
3 phase can only mean 3 phase. It can only mean 3 phase 3 wire (3 phase without neutral) or 3 phase 4 wire (3 phase with neutral).

*
I have no arguments with your comments except to clarify my initial statement on 3 phase supply wrt 3ph kWH meters..

The 3Phase kWH meter is always 3Ph4wire

However u don't need to pull in all 4 wires (3 phase voltages and the Neutral) into the residence if you can satisfy your maximum demand with 3 wires (2 phase Voltages and the Neutral) (as residential use almost exclusively single phase load)..

Saves your money..

here in malaysia

3 Phase is 415V (phase voltage) as opposed to Single phase is 240V(line voltage)..

It's only the name of the supply voltage (415V phase-phase)..

I hope thats clear and you're welcome to comment further..
jAkUn
post Dec 27 2016, 10:08 PM

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QUOTE(Richard @ Dec 27 2016, 10:04 PM)
I have no arguments with your comments except to clarify my initial statement on 3 phase supply wrt 3ph kWH meters..

The 3Phase kWH meter is always 3Ph4wire

However u don't need to pull in all 4 wires (3 phase voltages and the Neutral) into the residence if  you can satisfy your maximum demand with 3 wires (2 phase Voltages and the Neutral) (as residential use almost exclusively single phase load)..

Saves your money..

here in malaysia

3 Phase is 415V (phase voltage) as opposed to Single phase is 240V(line voltage)..

It's only the name of the supply voltage (415V phase-phase)..

I hope thats clear and you're welcome to comment further..
*
so..
is it much safer and money saving to use 3phase instead of single phase?
Richard
post Dec 27 2016, 10:21 PM

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QUOTE(jAkUn @ Dec 27 2016, 10:08 PM)
so..
is it much safer and money saving to use 3phase instead of single phase?
*
Just to be clear ..

For single phase residential loads..

Your maximum load is limited to the size of the electrical conductor supplied into your home..

The general max size is usually 2x25mm2 Aluminium Overhead cable which gives you a maximum 60A single phase..

This is also why you must not replace the 60A HRC fuse to 100A because that fuse will not blow before the cable starts to burn..

If you need more load then pull in another wire which will give you an additional 60A..

No a 3 Phase kWH meter will cost you more than double the price of a single phase kWH meter and it uses additional cable..

You only pull in another wire if you exceed the existing ..

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