lainux:

Of course you can plant rainforest trees close together... but as I've mentioned before with the case of inter-cropping teak with durians, the real question is "should they?".

I can understand your logic, and I believe that most people would think the same way too. However, what seems like a lot of vegetation in a rainforest, is simply just that: lots of vegetation. There really aren't many trees per unit space, if one really checked thoroughly.

Also, it is worth remembering that in primary rainforests, all those large trees had decades of growth under their belts, which helped create the layering effect seen in the rainforest (ie. canopy layer, understorey layer etc.).

Yes, thinning is practiced on teak plantations. However, please first gain some basic understanding about how trees accumulate nutrients and grow, and then the concept of high density cultures and thinning would be more appreciable. I will try my best to explain here.

Firstly, understand that different species of trees have different growth rates and metabolic rates. This affects the overall health and longevity of the trees as living organisms, and for human uses, the quality of its timber.

The reason why hardwood species are so valued by us is because the wood grain and tissue are very dense and inflexible, unlike softwood species which have porous and springy wood. But the reason why hardwood species are, well... hard, is because they have slower growth rates and accumulate their biomass slowly.

Now trees like teak are unique among hardwood species in having a higher growth rate. And while in theory, it seems like common sense to plant them like how one would do with acacia or pine (softwood species with similar high growth rates), what a lot of people don't realize is that this higher growth rate is offset against a higher nutrient demand, which is how teak bulks up its biomass to create its well-known hardwood quality. Now teak is quite a resilient species, and even under nutrient deficiency, will continue to grow. But the higher competition for nutrients and space experienced by teak grown under high density cultures will result in wood that is porous and fragile.

In other words, all the wood harvested in the initial stages will be of very low quality that will fetch very low prices, if anyone is willing to take them. It is only in the last 2-3 harvests that the timber may be of appreciable quality.



Mr Farmer:

Fruit trees are quite different from timber species. For one, they do not have a long lifespan, which is why they are constantly producing fruits. It is a strategy used by fruit trees to propagate themselves, which we humans exploit.

But even when cultured under artificial conditions, much less at high densities, there is a very significant effect on crop performance. For one, the lifespan of these trees are greatly reduced. Secondly, the per-tree crop performance is sharply reduced. Also, there is a reduction in quality of crop.

Now many would probably be saying, "Eh? No ah... those farms growing like 200 mango trees per acre still produce more fruits than those with only 100 mango trees per acre wor...".

Well, if you read the report carefully, you will notice the reasons why. Very often, the yield performance is reported on a per acre or hectare basis. But when you divide the yield over number of trees, you will then see that each tree actually produces less crop for those in high density cultures. The reason why high density culture persists, is that the yield drop per tree is offset by the number of trees packed into a unit area.

Also, when you check the lifespan of the trees grown under high density cultures and compare them to less intensive farms, you will notice that those trees grown intensively will have a far shorter lifespan. For example, in the case of mangoes, trees grown at 100 stands per hectare will continue producing high amounts of crop well into 40 years or more of culture; whereas mango trees grown at 400 stands per hectare or more, they tend to stop producing crop before 20 years of age, sometimes halting production about 10 years into production.

Again, the main reason why high density culture is widely practiced is because the increased economic yield offsets the costs of replanting every decade or so.

As for your other question about how teak survive in the wild, I believe I have somewhat answered your question. But just to make it clearer, let me add on by saying that in the wild, there is a natural balance and order. Each tree species will occupy a certain niche within that order, which allows it to thrive. Humans tend to potong-trip this order, but often our efforts result in catastrophic outcomes.

As for the question about thinning... I would like to add on a few other thing:

Height is not as important in timber quality compared to girth. What I mean is that for timber merchants, there is little use for a 100 foot tall tree that is only 10cm in diameter, compared to a 10 foot tree with a trunk diameter of 20cm.

Bear in mind that for optimal growth, trees should be spaced 2 times the natural canopy space it occupies from the next growing point. And to clarify, canopy space is less critical than root growing space; the natural canopy space occupied by a tree is an approximation to the root space it requires to grow healthily.


Growing teak 5-8 feet apart from each growing point is industry practice, especially in Thailand. However, I'm wondering if the person realizes that he should be coppicing the trees.... depending on soil nutrient profile, coppicing should be done regularly.


The first article is done in Thailand by Thai and Japanese researchers on coppicing teak:
http://www.cifor.org/publications/pdf_file...abilitation.pdf

The journal also includes other tree species, such as Eucalyptus etc.




This post has been edited by Michael J.: Oct 22 2014, 11:05 AM

First time to learn about coppicing. Had to google to find out what it means. Wow... if coppicing is done, then it would take forever to grow the trees? Then wouldn't coppicing encourage the trees to have few branches? Is that desirable? Or, do you cut and leave only 1 main trunk?

I know thais like to do that, their trees are nice.

So is tree farming a good idea? Compared to fruits, it should be less work? But takes 10+ years to see return.

Would it be better to grow many species in the plot of land to simulate a forest?

My brother has land which he is not using. i am thinking if no one wanna use it for organic farming, I can start growing some trees. I heard there are people stealing trees too. My idea is to simulate a forest, and let it be for 10+ years.

You can only answer that, as you know what your strategy / planning. Fruit trees more work = higher returns? Usually easy stuffs, lesser return. Some fruit trees need 10 years + too to see return. Plant just don't bear fruits at maximum. It takes a couple of years to "peak", Tree farming, less work, high return= Gaharu ?

Just curious why you want to have a forest?

Yes, trees do get stolen. I had rubber sapling and Musang King sapling stolen, even after planting for a couple of months.

Not into gaharu, as I see quite many are selling their gaharu farms. It is really hard to harvest for the 'liquid' and too much work.

I was watching some permaculture videos and many of them are trying to simulate a forest. Few things:

1. fewer decease?
2. mixed trees will grow better? have no idea, just a guess
3. will be doing something good for the wild life too.

I was talking about stealing big trees when they are worth more. :-)

lainux:

The whole idea of coppicing is to manage the supply of trees you are growing.

When coppicing is done, the trees that are cut-down will regenerate new shoots from the stump (note: only if the tree is one of those cut-and-come-again types). From the new shoots, you'd only choose 1 or 2 really strong shoots and let them grow. These new growths will also take about the approximate number of years to reach the desirable girths.

Eg. for teak, coppiced teak stumps will put out shoots quite quickly, and the selected shoot will take about 10 years to reach the desired harvesting girth (+/- 20cm).

But in the meantime, the extra "breathing" space created from coppicing allows the remaining tree stands to grow better, which improves the quality of those trees and their wood.


So let us use an example to illustrate this:

Let's say you plant 600 teak trees on 1 hectare of land. You know that it will take about 10 years for your trees to reach marketable sizes. But you also know that the more growing space each tree has, the better the quality of the wood. And the better the quality of wood, the higher the price you can command.

Thus, you decide to implement coppicing technique. What you'd do is allow the trees to grow to about 5-6 years age, and then for every 1 tree, you remove 1 neighbouring tree. Thus in effect, you have removed 300 trees from your original 600.

Now this does not mean those 300 trees removed are gone forever, no. They will put up new shoots soon, and by the time they are 4-5 years old, the older stands can now be harvested for sale.

Therefore, you've created a tree-harvesting cycle of 4-5 years through the use of coppicing technique.


As for the comparison between tree farming and fruit production... they are about the same in terms of work, really. It is just that the type of work will be different.

With fruit trees, your crop are the fruits, and you will need to protect your crop against pest, diseases etc. With timber plantations, your crop is the tree itself, and you will still need to protect them against pest, diseases etc. Sarawak used to have large tracks of acacia timber plantations, but now they are shuttering them down. Why? Because of fungal outbreak, wood boring beetles, lightning strikes (oh yes, lightning is a big problem in timber plantations), and of course theft. Theft is inevitable, especially if you have valuable timber species.

But to answer your question more directly, tree cropping requires less intensive attention compared to fruit cropping. However, by "less intensive attention", it does not mean checking the farm only once a month. It is more like having the luxury of checking the farm once every 3-4 days instead of every other day.


As for creating a forest-like environment... sure, that is a good idea. But do talk to some permaculturist about that. As far as I understand, permaculture focuses a lot about natural balance. And the permaculturist I know really put in a lot of work to achieve this balance, so it is not going to be a walk in the park, so the speak.

But yes, once the permacultured farm has reached its natural balance, there is a noticeable scarcity of disease outbreaks. Even when an outbreak does occur, the intensity is often very reduced compared to intensive farms.

Mixed trees do grow better, as long as they are compatible. Some trees are just bad idea to grow. For example silver oak is know to produce toxins that it injects into the soil through its roots, which are poisonous to seeds and seedlings of all other tree species, but has no effect against animals, humans or soil organisms. Trees like casurinas and certain pines also produce a similar toxin, but through its mutualistic mychorrhiza.

Wow, you are really good!

OK, now I really understand what coppicing is. So, it is kind of similar to thinning.

Can I intercrop all the species you mentioned earlier?

lainux:

The short answer: no.

The longer answer: no, unless you know what you're doing.

I'm afraid that unless we're more experienced in silviculture, it is quite challenging to manage intercropped trees. Managing a plantation comprising of a single species would be more feasible for beginners/novices.

Thanks Michael for the info. Yep, will contact them when the land clearing is done.

if i wanted to start a agriculture business on fish farming and vegetables farming do i need to apply any vaccine or health check before i start? any permit i need to apply?

Not that I know of, unless you are going for certification. You are only producing, not processing food for retail.

thanks, wish to ask another question on land title issue, can I grow my fish in residential land? Or is that any restriction of doing this? Is that any problem i will face in future? planning to rent a residential land to grow fish and plant fish tank will be inside the house and vegetables will be outside.

I guess you must have your reasons to use residential land, and you know that there is a difference in residential / agriculture rental. Not sure how is your set up. I guess sooner or later you shall have troubles with the authorities, especially municipal.
When a friend of mine started off and repair cars in his house, he get summons from bandaraya.
Good luck.

cs_war3:

On your question about permits and license, it depends on your land title. If it is designated as agriculture with no restrictions, you can do any sort of agriculture as long as it isn't illegal. Some land titles may have restrictions, eg. only for oil palm/rubber.

However, that being said, you might need to be aware about how you are going to dump the aquaculture waste. I am guessing you're doing aquaponics? Even with aquaponics, you will have some level of excess waste that you will need to deal with. If your only solution is dumping it away, then check if an Environment Impact Assessment report will be necessary for your scale of production. Large aquaculture farms, especially those dealing with shrimp/seafish etc., require an EIA report plus permit to operate.


Now as for using residential land for this kind of activity... technically you cannot do it. Residential land/properties have restrictions on the kind of activities allowed on it, which does not included farming or the rearing of animals for profit purposes. Think about swiflet farming and the usage of shophouses for this business... even those types of properties cannot rear animals for "farming" purpose, what more residential properties?

That being said, if you are discreet, usually the authorities buat tak tahu and will close one eye lar... as long as your neighbours do not complain.

Case in point, one of the bigger sifus in aquaculture actually operates his business out from his home in Sepang. And his house is located within a housing estate. The land on his property is huge, so he decided to put it to good use by turning most of it into an integrated aquaculture rearing system for freshwater fish, sea fish, mud crabs, flower crabs and some other experiments he is trying. Now, the local authorities did in fact come to "spotcheck" his place, on the pretext that he misused a residential property. But since he properly treats and disposes his fish waste, and the system he uses is concealed and does not stink up the whole taman, plus there is no noise pollution from his equipment, they actually allowed him to continue operation there. The only thing they asked him to do is get a proper business license and permits lar.

thanks for the advice, i think i saw the sepang farm yesterday. It's a proper greenhouse right?
wish me luck guys gonna quit my current job very soon and join the aquaculture and agriculture family very soon.

BTW, anyone got a land for lease or sell near seremban? Trying to get a proper land to start my agriculture, looking for land size of 1 acre. Aquaponics and some farming on the earth

cs_war3:

First of all, you have definitely taken a bold step, so best of luck to you! We all hope to hear great news from you in the future.

I'm not sure which greenhouse you are referring to, as there are quite a few of them about in Sepang. Most of them, however, employ fertigation systems and are on government or korperasi peladang land. The aquaculture sifu's home is located within the taman at the entrance road to AVANI Sepang Goldcoast.



Speaking of which, the nearby Banghuris and Bangkong villages (in Sg Pelek town) are is designated as a permanent agriculture park. There are a lot of empty plots there, which can be rented from the Department of Agriculture. There is an office there, so if anyone is interested, might want to try your luck there. Electric supply is available at the site itself.

Alternatively, there are a lot of empty SMI factories nearby too. Some are empty, whereas a few are being used for kerepek production. One could try asking the village headman for permission to set up some kind of production facility there too.

Further away towards the beach at AVANI Sepang Goldcoast, there are a few indoor aquaculture production centres. One of them is up for sale or rent, can't recall properly. They used to produce Jade Perch in that unit, but due to low demand for the fish, they eventually shuttered.

Actually, if you just ask around the area, you will find quite a lot of land for rent or sale.


As for Seremban area.... that one Paraoptical may be more familiar lar. You could try asking him and see.

Thanks MJ, your information is very helpful , i'll try ask the authority you mention on this.
I'll try to make my system bigger in my hometown now. For the mean time i'll seek for location to expand in next year. I guess if i put fish tank in my house no ppl will complaint other than my mom. My dad support me quite alot on this project.

thanks again! friend

Anyone interested in Permaculture?

Murujan Permaculture Design is hosting a Permaculture Design Certificate course at Janda Baik in Malaysia this coming February 2015.

You can check out the details via this link:

http://murujan.com/2014/09/14/permaculture...-february-2015/

Registration form:

http://www.sedida.biz/murujan/registration


Also, did you know we have a Seedsavers Network?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/malaysianseedsavers/?fref=nf

They are really into permaculture as well, so if you are interested, just drop them a line.

Hello Sir(s),

This is my first post to the thread. I started an aquaculture venture with a few partners a year ago. We did try on poly tanks for red tilapia but didnt work out as the tanks we found were not that feasible as we could only healthily stock 300+- adult tilapia in one tank. The tanks were 3000 liter(600 gallon) circular poly tanks from BNC n measured 2mx2m. Now we've switched to concrete tanks that were used for paper factory 20 yrs ago and re-do a system and piping for aquaculture. I've been following this thread since half a year ago and find it very informative and a very positive sharing attitude among most members in all areas of agriculture and aquaculture. I truly appreciate the generosity all the masters and sifus and pros and other people have given and now I also want to participate in this thread, to learn as well as to share on whatever knowledge I have learned.

Regarding fish fries, do you know of any good suppliers in Perak, as I am based here. I have been getting from Kam Sing(kampar) and Wong(gopeng) and have had bad results - up to 70%-90% mortality rate. Only the fries i get from kk road(Ng) is good, only 15-30% mortality rate. I'm not sure what the problem is, is it the groundwater im using not enough oxygen cause not enough sunlight in storage tank? or not enough days under the sun? is there a way to check or to tell if the water is good enough? or is it calcium or malnutrition from the water source? any suggestions?

cause in the storage tank we also have like 1000-2000 fish, and they grow till grade A fish in 7-8 months with minimal feed, and those were leftover fry from the last harvest from that tank. So im guessing the water quality shouldnt be too bad if the fish there can grow and breed as well. does rust also play a big part with fish health? as our concrete tanks are old n reused and some have metal bits with rust.

or was it because of the rainy season and the water was too cold? The earlier batch was a bit bigger and wasnt affected much and they were in the same system, but the new batch died during the rainy season during 9 wong yeh. We were saying that the 9 wong yeh came and took some fishes back. haha.

I am currently looking for new red tilapia suppliers for the next batch. Planning to get from a few sources and grow them side by side to see the differences in quality and growth rates. Been getting them at 6cents-9cents depending on size. I grow the fry in 20x10 ft tanks in 3-4 ft of water and stock 2000-2500 per tank till 6-8 inches. Then transfer them to growout tanks which are 30x30ft and 10ft in depth and stock 6000-10000 per tank. I know the depth is not ideal as oxygen goes lower in deeper water n less surface area. but we have one 3hp swirling paddlewheel in each tank which I think is good enough. Fish have been growing to 500gms in 5 months, so we still need to improve. I dont think there's a problem with the growout tanks. Just the fry tanks aren't good enough. Maybe not enough aeration as their appetite is pretty low - 2-5% of bodyweight in average. Hard to get them to consume more. When in the growout tanks, their appetite is like monsters. Throw two bags finish in 5mins. Feed until scared.

I'm just a noob with a lot of interest in fish, been fishing for over 20 yrs and been gutting fish since then haha. Stumbled into aquaculture/aquaponics 8 years ago, got interested and started doing research. Then came back to malaysia and then my partners asked me to join them, what a dream come true.

Joined this thread in hopes of getting help solving problems i face at work and also to help out if someone has a similar problem and also to b**** about work, haha. What a long-winded first post. Lol. Thanks all for your time to read/reply to my post. Cheers!!