many people said IT people get less paid, hard to find jobs, this and that.....what is the reason actually? is it that hard to get a job for IT degree holders?

well from my opinion, most people who got IT degree cant get a job, or underpaid, the reason is quite simple, they simply lack of technical skills. many of them only have some basic knowledge which they learn in kolej or uni, beyond that, they are just a bunch of IT noobs. for example, many persuing IT degrees cant even troubleshoot a simple error in a computer. it is quite true when u do a survey around kolej or uni.

guys n gals, any comments and reasons regarding this topic is warmly welcome.

This post has been edited by edwuave: Nov 1 2006, 11:11 AM

quite true

I think we should related to our love university/collegues or intituition that provided us the skill.

I do agreed that when study they teach me nut of IT thing... concept, theory ...

IT is so common these days, just ask any forummers here they can even solve simple error problems in their own computer although they're not from IT background. IT companies are not just looking for IT graduates with general skills, but something more specific. I've seen many IT companies recruiting graduates for internships and training, so I personally think it's best to go for training to expose more to knowledge and skills required before securing for a job.

of coz that is the most basic knowledge, even a 15 year old can troubleshoot with the computer nowadays.
basically, all IT degree holders went through an internship b4 they complete their degree. but they still cant get a job after grad.

Perhaps the industry will cooperate will local uni to provide training of their students so that their job requirements are fullfilled when the the students graduated.

This can make sure that some IT grads can get jobs as soon as they finished their studies.

I don't know how it works in malaysia but when i was studying abroad IT courses allowed people to choose a course that requires little to no practical approach to IT, all you have to do is to write a bunch of essays, write some simple programs and that will allow you to get your paper... I think this approach sucks.. in Malaysia I don't htink much employers care if you can draw a damned impressive UML diagram but rather they area looking for practical expertise,

take me for example, I am not "great" in programming but I would say right now where I am, I trump my colleagues in terms of techincal and practical skills..

Here's the kicker though, as an employer, how would you know what kind of IT "grad" is the person you are about to hire? Sure you can make them takes tests and all that, but I think until the day where programming interviews involving you solving a problem on the spot with practical/techincal skills, the employers will never know...

I mean i've seen a few coming to apply for a job as a java programmer and I've seen some of the "absurd" answers they have given in the written test which shows me that they have clearly no knowledge or understandinng in even the most simple concepts of programming...and i do mean the most simple (like declaring variables.. no i'm not joking)

This post has been edited by tnsai: Nov 1 2006, 11:51 AM

Well, i think the income for Malaysian is usually not enough high for them to spend on IT. Most of IT hardware and software are import from other countries. If an American income got USD3000, he can spend for a Winfast 9750GX2 TDH for only around USD500. But a Malaysian need to spend for RM2000 to buy it. That is very expensive..

Somemore, a lot of local companies don't believe that IT can help their business. A lot of companies' Director think that IT department is always a wastage of company. They more prefer on their sales and production department.

I dont quite agree the fault is all at fresh grad side
i've had an internship with a MNC company. most of the old folks in there (high position dudes) arent from IT background, so the know less to shit bout IT stuff.
they think IT department(helpdesk) have the easiest job in company, n hire so few ppl in that particular department
n they pressure us on crazy deadlines.. pay peanuts ask for gold
n they mostly dont give chances to freshie, coz they wanna have minimal employee with max output.. so chances for freshie to learn with these kind of employer is small.

but thanx to latest technologies n younger generation in high rank positions, these kind of problem may lessen by time..
btw, n working in IT isnt juz about install n troubleshooting PC's. so no matter how good u are at uni, u'll still have lots to learn


This post has been edited by e-jump: Nov 1 2006, 12:22 PM

yeah i agree with all the comments here, i myself also underpaid eventhough im a degree holder in IT. Yes i do agree institution like college and university should provide the pratical thingy oso. but for college like mine only provide the theory, idea, and preparing student on working environment. The other thing is that as a student need to improve themselves in future, so they need to do self studies, self learning. No more spoon fed already...whahaa... even in the market right now, only prestige or loaded company will provide training only, for the other small, budget or so call "kedekut" company... its kinda hard to get training courses from them... mostly they will provide you the course and bind the employee on contract basis... which u gonna work like a dog...whahaha....

As an e-jump comments, u cant blame the old folks there.... u know each person came out to work will need 2 create career, so we as freshie dont think so will work 10 years as help desk only... so these old folks maybe... maybe only arr... good in management skills.... so we freshies need 2 be hardworking n learn all around skill like PR, management oso...

hey e-jump, i apologize if i offended u.....

ok i repeat again, that is just an example that i've mention. as i hv said earlier, even a 15 year old can troubleshoot pc,means he can work as IT person liao?
just like how tnsai said, some dont even know how to declare a variable in java.

nah, im juz pointing out that apart from freshies lack of experience, employer is also a major factor for lots of unemployed fresh grad these days.

Now where are you working e-jump?

it's not about currency, ability n so on.
i feel it's just plain passion vs laziness.
many think that a paper will land them a job, many went into IT coz "my frends are there". The situation I come across is, most of the time, ppl r just lack of the enthusiasm in IT.
IT is one of the fastest growing industries where generally u'll hv new stuffs everyday. hv to find and define a starting point to learn and continue to keep up with it whenever u can. this include deciding on ur path; system, network, software. but most of the time companies wouldn't invest on employee's skill trainings.

one of the other reason i find IT job sux is bcoz the market is overwhelmed by half tank full graduates that request for low pay n keep quiet when thrown into bad situations/bad benefits. i m not blaming these freshies. in fact i used to b one of them. i guess it quite depends on individual during the education stage.

This post has been edited by xenothrix: Nov 1 2006, 12:31 PM

im jobless.. LOL
nah, i juz graduated month ago (sept)..
im from EE background btw.
n still undecided to persue career under EE or IT
(been applying EE related jobs so far)

why u asked?

nothing.. just asking

"i feel it's just plain passion vs laziness."

Quite true... No stupid people but lazy people...

This post has been edited by hpteh: Nov 1 2006, 12:43 PM

Actually one thing. Working is different than studying.
I do agree that when i was in college the lecture really mean nothing. Only let us know the concept and don't have much pratical for it. We need to have more hands on of it in order to know more. Cause i think like programming...when u work on it then u will be able to learn more.

Another things is the employer. Most of them don't give chance to freshie. If no freshie then how to have senior. Everyone also start from zero. But now i think many small IT company not doing so well also.

Even if they have enough to spend on IT, they will buy
1) iPod
2) latest graphic card
3) latest sound card
4) 20" flat monitor

All of them do not add value to their resume. Result... still unemployable.

Hmm ... I suggest you do market/prospect research before choosing a job. In every field, there are areas where they pay high salary.
For IT, those areas are SAP and the likes.

very true, employer usually wont give chance to freshies, provided if the freshies' result r sub-par (2nd lower n below). They will mostly welcome those with better results, definitely as they would b more willing to take the risk of getting a person with better result in hope that even if they cant start work soon, they r bright enough to pick up pretty fast. in the business world, nothing starts from zero. u hv to hv something special to be competitive, an edge over the tenths or hundreds other job applicants.

part 1, i agree with you, college is college and work is work .. college seem more like a dream land or a long vacation for most ppl. Class n papers meant nothing. ONLY grade does matters which will be used as a bus ticket for entering big arse company

part 2, i dont really agree with you on this, every employer give equal opportunity, the problem is on those fresh noob it self ! Ppl offer 1.2k~1.5k, they reject, who to blame ?

most of them think they are god-like in the first place n expect 2~3k pay??! nah my foot! unless you have tons of tech skills n professional papers to back u up such as CCNA CCNP CISSP CISA CCIE CEH, then you can expect nothing less then 30k!
I started of with 1.5k on a company and my pay structure being revised 3 time in a year ...which now it's over 2k, (cant tell exact figure).... so dont put the blame on employer.

cheers

This post has been edited by nicotine: Nov 1 2006, 02:20 PM

you opinion is true but that only apply to MNC, not local mid size company.

uhh the title of your topic is a bit different from your viewpoint. Let me explain, I've been in the IT field for 8+ years, 4 of them were in states. IT sucks in Malaysia, not because I cannot find a job, in fact with my experience it is very easy to find and keep a job. The problem is IT professionals are really treated as low level personnels here in Malaysia. The Malaysian industry has got the concept of manager all wrong. This is especially true in the IT field, I cannot comment about other fields. So please note, all my comments hereforth relate to the IT field, to be precise as a software developer, even if I dont explicitly say so.

In Malaysia, a Manager is considered a senior position, one where you get promoted to through your experience and contributions. It is the next step necessary for a bigger pay check. The problem is IT is a technical field. If a technical person has a lot of years of technical experience and a lots of contributions, by promoting them to a Manager, you are causing problems for the company. First off, they are not trained management professionals, the years they accumulate in their experience are primarily in their technical field of expertise, sure they are managed so they can relate how they were manage and use that, but that is totally different from a trained management professional with real management experience. Second, even if you provide training, they will not be able to get accustomed to their new role, in fact some people might not even have the people/soft skills necessary no matter how much training you give them. This not only jeopardizes the person's contribution but also all those being managed by him/her. In fact there's a known principle to avoid in any organization, its called the Peter Principle

Next is the vicious cycle of the IT field in Malaysia. Dont ask me which came first, I dont even know, but I am caught up in it like most IT professionals. Because we have bad management in the IT field, turnover rate is quite high, people dont tend to stay long as such, companies find it hard to promote within the ranks. So some will promote loyalists, even though over the years their technical contributions on averate may be well below par than someone who has not worked all that long in the company. Again this is just carrying on the vicious cycle, as the person promoted is only contributing to bad management and high turnover.

As a strong counter case outside of Malaysia, let me say my first job was at a big MNC company in the states. The corporate structure is such a way that the technical ladder and the non-technical ladder has its own structure each with a common executive rank. For example, my software team lead actually has a higher executive rank than our manager. They follow a different corporate ladder, with my team lead in the technical ladder and my manager in the non-technical ladder. My team lead has a lot of years as a software developer hence his position, our manager has less years as a manager hence her position. However this does not change things. We still report to both with the team lead responsible for resolving technical issues and the manager for non-technical issues. Although our manager still oversee the whole project and report to upper management, she must accept any technical decisions made by the team lead. Our manager is a trained management professional, bachelors and masters in management with minor in IT. Started as a management trainee, worked up to assistant manager and through the ranks till she became a manager. Her role is to resolve non-technical problems and the overall project issues. The system just works.

Now compare this to IT in Malaysia. Manager use to be an senior technical professional. No management experience other than being managed once (which is very different from managing). Has technical professional experience but mostly deprecated as technology changes so fast. Most of the time will not accept suggested technical solutions different from what they have in mind even though they are no longer in a position to make technical decisions, but because they used to be a technical professional and is now the Manager with the final say their ego and pride will get the better of themselves. When problems arises in the future, the technical person is always to blame. Another factor, which is just my speculation, that contribute to this problem is culture. We as Malaysian has the mentality of 'The boss is always correct, regardless'. This is a very bad mentality and behavior to cultivate.

Note, this is not all companies in Malaysia, no doubt some people has good experiences. But my personal experience over the few companies I've been with has the same consistent problems. Bad management with high technical staff turnovers because the technical staff are always to blame.

Currently, I'm fortunate enough to be in a company where although my manager was promoted from a technical position, he does not behave as above. You know why? Cause he isnt Malaysian, he does not have the mentality of 'I'm the boss, my word is final'. He will accept that sometimes a technical problem can never be solved within a given time frame, forcing it will not do any good. One of the most common phrase I've heard from my past managers in Malaysian IT companies is 'I want this by XX date' regardless if it is not feasible with the given resource. That is just plain stupid and arrogant. That is why IT sucks in Malaysia, not because the fresh grads dont have enough skill, technical skills can be trained, in the IT world technology changes so fast, we often have to retrain experienced staff, but IT sucks in Malaysia because we have a vicious cycle of bad management practice causing high turn-overs which causes bad management promotion decision which cause bad management practice which cause high turn-overs, etc.

If you're a fortunate one working in a company different from this, lucky you. If you dont believe me try joining a local company, especially the local financial/banking vendors. See your life drift away as you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week because your boss says he/she wants this by 1 week when the actual requirements will take 6 months and he/she wont be reasonable because he/she is the boss.

Yes i also agree with u that some freshie is just choosy. They taught with a degree cert they can ask for better. Some even not more than 2K also don't want. But i think for IT job at least have to be 1.6K. I started from 1.8K and now is just pass 2K.

Actually some ask for more as they need to consider they staying location. U know especially those outstation. Imagine if they stay at far away from KL. They have to travel and have commitment...is hard to survive. Actually i'm wonder how those ehmm lower salary people can survive.

IT is very common in malaysia..even a non IT Graduate fellow oso know IT,example for lailai chai he..oso know..
that why i quit my IT study got for Multimedia Design now..

every employee will give chance to freshie,
it really depend on ya social skills..
non of a company will hate u..when u first working..
is all abt ur relationship,connection with them..

and then..i too agree..many IT degree holder is very choosy nowaday (maybe they born in rich family) or ( go oversea study)
they think that 1.5k too them like very cheapnish..like to compare to others..

do not..fellow ppl footstep..do ya best on ur own..
gain exp first..is the first priority..and most important..

I agree 100% and also there will be people out ther thinking that you think this way because you are not giving your 101 % to the company and are attracting negativity in the company. I should say you are just seeing the truth and voicing out the truth the American way. I should say this kind of bad management only works for people who has his WHOLE life to work ONLY. I have been in IT for many years. I have been with the people are very good and vice versa. I have also seen the worst. They become worst is because they dedicated their whole life to work and thinking that people owes them and decide they should be respected like God. And they cant accept NO for an answer. I see people with balance lifestyle with amazing leadership qualities...amazingly they are good managers. Througout my life I only seen 1. Not including those who practise the Ali/Ah Kau/Ahmad Principle the malaysian style. Enough said....this is Malaysia. I tried to change but somehow change is inevitable for some IT. Their is no unity in avoiding Ali/Ah Kau/Ahmad principle. So most graduates are doomed to join them just to survive..some barely survive.

Some leader think about win/win situation. What is win/win actually? Giving the staff 3 days off after a 7 days work without sleep? No. A positive leadership is one who give more than he/she expects one to give. Go extra mile on behalf of others.Fashion your leadership style by this wisdom from Presidden Wodrow Wilson: "I do not believe that any man can lead who does not act...under the profound sympathy with those whom he leads." Wilson means good leaders dont ask people to do what they would not do themselves. Good leaders are characterized by their ability to give more than they expect others to give. This is one postiive laws of being a good leaders. There are 9 more qualities. It has been reserached by the International working organization in the USA that without this 10 charcterisitc in a person is NOT a leader.



This post has been edited by extol: Nov 1 2006, 10:44 PM

stick to engineering, any tom, d*** and harry with quarter of a brain can do IT work.

ssssoooooooo.. what's this IT work that u're refering to?

probably the kind that your spastic penguin is doing.

so what's the kind that my penguin's doing?

Do you at all even know what you are even talking about?

IT may be so very common in Malaysia, but thing is, in addition to the grumbles of IT grads finding it difficult to find jobs, there's equally as loud grumbles on how hard it is to find competant IT staff.

You'll need to keep in mind that the IT area is rather wide, and its important to get to know the different aspects of it, and where your interest really lies so you can take your own effort to find explore more into the different specializations on your own. This will need to be done on your own initiative. Your university can probly help you should you have questions, but do not expect your university or lecturers to approach you to see what you want to do.

Yup, I agree with you on the issue of interest, if you think that Multimedia Designs is where you interest lies, then its a good idea to go for it.

hmmm...if I were to hazard a guess, your penguin is probably working for an alternate solution to fermat's last theorem. then again that's nothing compared to your highly technical and scientifically grounded IT job.

I have no idea why any universities would want to offer an IT degree, its neither here nor there. Universities are for academic endeavors, if you want something vocational, call it a polytechnic.



This post has been edited by chairmanmeow: Nov 2 2006, 01:24 AM

I'm not sure about how it was like in your college, but for me, it was practical work every step of the way. Started off with an introduction to programming in first year, then after that you're already expected to be able to pick up programming skills on your own. 2nd year onwards, lectures are all theory, and you're expected to have picked up enough additional programming skills on your own to do the practicals. So, its either you be self reliant, or you die.

Its very much the same, and even more brutal when you go out to work.

Also, its not very accurate to say that employers do not want to give chances to fresh graduates. Its more on most places are very very reluctant to give any chances to fresh graduates who know nothing apart from their course syllabus, as that shows an alarming lack of personal initiative.

Correct, Universities are for academic endeavors, of which you failed to realize the academic endaevors behind IT.

Now, take a look at the term, vocational. Why do you think universities do not offer subjects specific towards a specific technology, but concentrate more on the science and mathematics behind it all (or at least that's for Computer Science anyways).

Operating Systems design, Design Patterns, Algorithms & Data Structures, Artificial Intelligence, Formal Analysis of Algorithms, Formal Methods in Software Engineering, and so on, those are all areas where academic research focuses on.

If there's one big complain that I've got in regards to income level in Malaysia and the exchange rate, it'll be the exhorbitant rate of books and reference materials. But then again, that tend to be a pretty poor excuse these days, considering the abundance of materials available on the internet.

Like what Luqman sez, a lot of money is spent on toys rather than seriously persuing the area of one's interest (talking about professional interest here, not social interest).

Well, you need to understand the role of IT in the first place too. IT for most local companies, especially the smaller ones tend to be in a supporting role. Hence it does not make sense for most places to maintain their own full time IT staff, where they can better use the money for other things.

These are the things which you would do if you're doing computer science or engineering. My impression of an IT degree is that they would go through most things, programming, OS, networking etc but nothing very deep. hence the comment "neither here nor there".

well, that's mainly the result of capitalism, from the way I see it. It cant be denied that there's quite a number of ppl who would rather go for an easier course, and there are indeed places that capitalizes on this.

Actually, changes in student attitudes these days are pretty appaling, and its all over the world too. There was an article on CNET a year back (cant find the link anymore unfortunately) about how bad it gets now in the US. Students simply giving excuses such as, "I was too busy partying, so I just got somebody else to do the work for me" when caught for plagiarism. One professor's comments was equally as good, saying that years back he and his colleagues used to amuse themselves by listening to all sort of creative excuses given by students who got caught, but these days, they dont even bother.

Lol, ok now i get it, your beef was specific to "I.T. degree", which makes sense. Initially I though your comment was targetted at all the I.T. related field of studies which includes computer science because your earlier comments doesnt really make any sense especially in computer science studies which is very technical and scientific. I dont know what the curriculum is here in local Unis, but where I got both my bachelors and master in C.S. some of the work/studies we were doing is no where near your typical I.T. work that any tom, d*ck or harry is doing as you mentioned. Your comment is correct though about the typical I.T. degree, but it suffices for practical reasons, because to be honest, having a C.S. degree for your typical I.T. job is overkill.

employers in malaysia NEVER value their employees hard work. what they think of employees are actually slaves. they have the mindset of, i hire u, u are my slave, u do wat i told, u shouldnt have ur own time, all ur life are belong to the company, i hire u i expect u know everything, and so forth

edit: they never value the IT jobs ppl, means like programmers etc. they ONLY love those front liners, like sales...

This post has been edited by Christopher_LKL: Nov 2 2006, 09:37 AM

Yup thats really true, its really hard to find competent, experienced, IT staff. This has been the case for every company that I've been with so far.

For fresh grads its a different story, its hard to get a job because not many companies are recruiting freshies compared to experienced staff. Take a look at jobstreet and jobsdb, look at all the ads, most of them will have a minimum years of experience. But that said, a fresh grad should really not complain about the minimum wage they are getting, personally I also feel that the average wage we offer here for IT fresh grads are a bit low (around RM1.5k on average isnt it?), but just do your time, after 1-2 years of experience you will get increases pretty easily, even if your current company doesn't offer you, a lot of others will.

Yeah, a lot of I.T. or C.S. graduates now have no idea which type of job they want to go into. They just head blindly in for the first reasonable offer they get, whether its a position as sysadmin, network admin, software developer, QA, etc. and find out later its not their cup of tea. It helps to at least narrow down which field and technology you want to build your career around. As an example, you might want to be a software developer using Microsoft/Sun related languages, etc. Switching specialization latter would mean you're almost starting from fresh, which means you just wasted a lot of your time and is not contributing anything to your career.

In fact, as you suggested, the university is a good place to find out. During the course of your studies, a student will no doubt be expose to the difference aspects through the subjects they take, i.e. networking, programming, etc. which is a good way to find out which one sparks the most interest.

That why I said, the mentality in Malaysia is all wrong in regards to the IT industry. As I said, its a vicious cycle, most of the management had it the same way, thru luck and perserverance and some thru hardwork they were promoted to management, so after years of getting whiped now its their time to give it, not because they are bad people, because they are technical people and the only management knowledge they have is the one they participated in when they were managed, so to them management means whipping at programming slaves as they were once whipped before. That is why management is really bad here in the I.T. industry.

Forget about hiring experienced managers, because all the managers i've met so far came thru from the same path. I've never met any I.T. managers here in Malaysia that were actually trained management professional (i.e. got a degree or some diploma in management) and started out in a managerial position (either as a management trainee or assistant manager) rather that started out in a technical position and then got promoted. The scenario is almost impossible in Malaysia, because the mentality is that any form of managerial role means 'Boss' and no one becomes 'Boss' without jumping thru hoops and doing the full circus act. This mentality is really stupid and archaic, in reality managers and technical staffs all play a very important role, each complementing another not one whipping the other.

actually employer do appreciate the IT devision, but only when they can see the result, ie improved network traffic etc coz they can feel it fast, etc
but they never never appreciate on how we constantly monitor, think for solution etc, with are consuming brain-cells n time, n whats-more propose to upgrade hardware (pay peanuts, want king class facility kind of mentality =__= )

*talking from network engineering POV

Here are some tips when writing a resume

1. Emphasize the skills related to that particular area that you want to work on
2. DO NOT EVER wrote MS-Office as one of your skills!!!
3. Write ALL your RELATED work experience in details, the tools you use etc...
4. If you want a job for programmer for example, DO NOT EVER write your work experience in say, waitress. Employer DON"T CARE. In fact we might think that you're a lousy programmer who cannot get a job.

This post has been edited by ergo_etc: Nov 2 2006, 10:04 AM

there're a lot of job sux too. ppl who study IT at least they're aiming for an IT job. many ppl who study random course assigned by government(yeah) in public U apply jobs blindly.

but then u seldom see them here bcoz they seldom make good use of forum. in fact almost all of us here doing computer related job. no?

On number 4), actually it does not hurt, especially if you've taken that kind of job on a part time basis during your undergrad years. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is, IT alone for the sake of IT is useless. Its how you can apply IT to be used into other areas that's where IT will have its value in.

If you're applying for a company that does POS terminals. Having worked as a waiter or waitress might be an advantage, as that might give you an insight to the issues that retail places have or are grumbling about when it comes to their POS systems.

^- they starting to value u after u becoming no life, workaholic and just do everything and say "yes" to anything, staying damn late for company sake. still they value ur hardworking only and think that u one person can do multiple jobs, still never value ur skill.

a good and skill person wont always stays back as they already know wat they need to do and therefore accomplish things very fast, still these ppl are not good in employers eyes, as these guys oftenly leave on time and since finished things fast, they are consider "free" most of the times and get "more" jobs to do.

Actually, doesnt that also apply to work in all fields and not just IT?

^- yeap might be applied to all fields, but i can see IT the worst, i have quite some friends work till next day 3am den go back and start working again 8am -.- ..... this not for a few days but weeks... and usually they went off around 10 - 11 pm ....

like that better change job as other job....there are many jobs outside....pro or non pro jobs...see u can take your pride to work as hawker, hair stylist, etc...

work just part of our life, appreciate your life and the one you love, family...

Seriously lar, all fields are equally as bad. I've seen ppl in marketing doing the same type of hours as you had mentioned. Not to mention, auditors too, being flown from one place to the next without being able to take a break at all.

A friend of mine just joined an advertising firm a few months back. Same thing too. Its in the company culture, finishing work at 3am everyday and so forth.

^- if its like that, i really wondering wats happened in our country working culture. wat i can say is employees fault, those so called hardworking or workaholic employees actually started this kind of culture by staying late as of employers will look on them, slowly those employers expect such employees although its clearly against the law.

really like some multinational company or overseas working culture. they come on time and leave on time, if u wanted to stay back, u need to make a report and state down the reasons for the manager. staying back MEANS either u are not efficient enough or something wrong with their schedule.

those ppl that willingly stay back just for the sake of staying back are quite selfish i would say, one stay another follow and stay later, and then become culture, so later all work from 9am -10pm (assume 9am-5pm standard hours) and then later all work until 12am and so on, later and later by your children time i think they do not even need to sleep next time they work if this keeps going.

I am so enlighten after reading all the professional comments here written by veteran pros. Even though I do not have as much as 8 years of exp in IT but I do have some humble views.

It seem like theres a conflict of interest among education and industrial line. One blaming others for not giving changes for freshies to gain experience, the other one blaming that they are not getting the people they want.

Education system is being praised for teaching the students the way of thinking and learning. But in truth, how many of these students are as good as what they expect? Or, what the 'customers' expect? Students is like a product here, and the customers are those employers who seeking out capable employees. After all, after 20 years of education, most of the students are just doing what others(parents, gov, etc) what them to do, and there are barely any learning/thinking process, they are forced to memorised exam tips and print them down on answer paper during finals. And after 20 years of primary, secondary and tertiary education, many failed to understand common sense.

So, is this the exam system to be blamed? Is our education system up to the standard? Did our students really doing the right thing? Did our kids being exposed enough to be able to make decision on what they want or they are just overprotected? Or it is just our culture of being mass producing everything without focusing on quality?

The industrial lines are surely a very demanding lines, we cant blame them for being choosy on what people they want to use, because in the world of business, every seconds would means winning or losing a business which also indicate do or die for a company. They simply do not have the room for these freshies to play around, or spending valuable time to train these new people up about what they are expected to know, or spoonfeed them like what most education line did. And many companies who once dedicated on training up new people would learn a hard lesson that whenever they trained up a guy they would frog jump to a better offer, loosing not only human resource but also the valuable time which you would make millions. If spend a bit more can hire a guy that require no training and can take care multiple task, why not? Time = money.

Should we blame the industrial players being selfish? Or should we blame the job seekers not initiatives enough to learn more about the required skill? This is a chicken and egg problem, I dont get the job, I learn the skill for what? You dont have the skill I hire you for what? And the industrial players being selfish also due to tough competition by OTHER industrial players which tends to dig capable workers from competitors(like banks).

I worked as part of the support team for a conference about collaboration between education and industrial(sth like that), the education representative said they will make sure the students going into industrial training(attachment) will get the correct job scope otherwise they will warn the employer, the industrial rep have opinion that they are simply some cheap labour to operate the photostate machine.

How is that job really is actually depends on the student self, is he/she the one who always making its-note-my-job complaints, or he/she is the one who can accept any given task and perform? The first type will only conclude the employer whether they want to take this person or not in the future, the second type will be the one who make good impression.

Mindset is the key. Even only doing photostating job or cleaning toilet, you can also score a few thumbs up, showing how dependable you are.

Who would give you an expensive server to maintain if you cant even do a simple task?

My really humble 1/2 cents.

How true, taking the MS office off my resume right now

Anyway, always customize your resume according to the employer, if Java is what they want, show them the codes if necessary.

This post has been edited by rexis: Nov 2 2006, 11:25 AM

Yes... I experience this before... Project base. However if you company treat you good then another story. Like OT kao kao (alot) and appriciated your effort for bonuses and increament.

^- how if its not project based and u need to do so everyday with NO extra bonus and low increment?

You have a too narrow definition of IT.

You guys think there's a problem with the IT field, you should come and experience it in KK Its no where close to the level you guys are at (Which is bad)

How true this is, a respectible industrial player always said that he is not looking for 9-5 staff, they are just barely some mindless workers, they are looking for those who can dedicate themselves fully. Sort of like selling your soul to your company.

Well its really doesn't matter if it is your own project or at least you think that way, if you have to be so calculative then its better you off the job.

That what I do. If i must trade off my personal time for nothing but some dont-be-so-calculative sh!t, we are done. We the least is that I cant find any passion to continue being a mindless worker.

This post has been edited by rexis: Nov 2 2006, 12:17 PM

IMO, both Darun and Rexis comments hit the nail on the head on this one.

It is not the IT field itself sucks, it is pervasive bad corporate cultures (and some level of old boys club mentality) that sucks in Malaysia.

What do you think of the government role in this and its "policy" towards so called 'K-economy'?
Does it help or hurt this sector?

What about the so-called "Multimedia Corridor" that was created 10 years ago?
Supposingly, it should generate interests, investments and create thousands of jobs available and make Malaysia a regional IT hub (supposingly better than Singapore or India and model of an East Asian version of Silicon Valley). What happened now?


This post has been edited by netfan: Nov 2 2006, 12:22 PM

hmm does that means that a mindless worker, workaholic with totally no life apart from working life will one day become very successful and rich person and therefore everybody should follow just for that sake?

really? ever seen how places like even Microsoft or Apple's like during their early day? Oh btw. that advertising firm that I had mentioned? That's a MNC as well

edit: same goes for those auditors too

This post has been edited by fyire: Nov 2 2006, 12:41 PM

Well personally I think you are mixing the 2 problems together. Companies having problem seeking experienced staff is a different problem than fresh grads not able to get a break or chance.

Companies having problem seeking experienced professionals has nothing to do with freshies. Note the term experienced. Not all companies will hire juniors/freshies all the time. It depends on the position being filled, if they want to hire an experienced person, they look for experienced person, if they want to hire a junior with no experience they hire fresh grads. The problem is hiring competent experience professional to fit the appropriate role, this is a different problem than hiring fresh grads. If the position you need filled requires a number skills that you can only get through work experience, it makes no sense to hire fresh grads. This is not unique to IT, this is a very common business practice in any field. The problem here is getting competent IT professionals.

Some companies will hire freshies for a number of reasons, to fill roles requiring minimal experience. The problem of freshies not getting jobs is just a simple supply demand problem, there's just too many IT graduates vs. available openings. If a fresh grad is complaining about company A not giving them a chance to fill the senior developer role (or whatever experienced position) than thats just be dumb. Most Businesses have limited resources, they cannot afford to hire a fresh grad and slowly train them up to the required experience level while the position critical to their business is left unfilled. Its simple as that. There will always be a need for seniors and juniors. Seniors are to fill roles that require support for critical business functionality that cannot be held off while they train someone to fit the role.

No. Have you? Even if they work crazy hours, how is their overtime and benefits? Just because they work crazy hours like we do doesnt mean we should. Perhaps they are getting the proper compensation. We cannot really compare their early days to our current situation without more details.

As for their current practices, do you know about all the development methodologies coming out, like Agile based methodologies such as scrum, etc? You know why all these was developed? Because their industry also realize there is abig problem in their whole process when projects keep failing. But unlike us, they recognize the problem and find ways to fix it. When a methodology fails, they look at it and try to improve it and come out with better methodologies. Sure its not perfect, but its a long way from what we practice here. Look at Malaysia, how many companies acknowledge their failure and learn from it. When projects fails, mass resignation occurs, and the company just does a mass recruitment, the cycle keeps repeating. How many development houses even bother to look at some of the existing methodologies and try to fit it in their process? So many local companies dont even bother about putting in the right process, they think its a waterfall process, but more like rojak, take requirement and hack at it with as much resource as many hours as you have and deliver. When there are customer change request, hack at it some more, not enuff resource? hire sumore and keep hacking at it. They are working hard but not working smart.

That's true.. reminds of my previous company in KL. Mindless cycles of Project Managers .. just remains in ever non-stop cycles of madness and mistakes. The company went out of business 3 years after I left.

Hence, I guess that's why we don't see many (or any) homebrew IT shops in Malaysia that is reknown at all. We don't have good industry leaders to keep IT staff in corporate Malaysia to be truly productive and successful.

This post has been edited by netfan: Nov 2 2006, 01:33 PM

College should provide more practical things rather than concepts.

heh, maybe Apple and M$ are bad examples for me to use here. My point is, do not expect all MNCs or foreign companies to be equal. The problems faced here in Malaysia is not unique to Malaysia only.

I've been involved in projects with some of those big name MNCs, and still they suffer from the same problems. Their staff needing to undergo long hours without proper compensation, complete lack of planning, u name it all.

I dont think spoon-feeding students is the way to make em independent in real career world. Thats why universities introduce industrial/practical-training to expose student to the real world.
Nevertheless it seems this kind of programme have yet to fully be informative to students as some of the company didnt expose them to real career world but prepare em for training (training here means everyday day they have specific schedule in reading/learning/visiting). I'm lucky back in my days during practical training, a was assigned as a normal employee, and do what other ppl in my department do.

This post has been edited by e-jump: Nov 2 2006, 02:54 PM

Umm MNCs located overseas or MNCs located in Malaysia? To me a lot MNCs in Malaysia face the same problem as local Malaysian companies if it is being run by locals, it doesnt really matter if its MNC or foreign company, as long as the management is being run by locals then its a Malaysian-style company and suffer the same problems.

As I said, foreign companies run into same problems, but in general they do try to look at failures and learn from it. That is why we see so many processes and methodologies cropping up, it is a result of people who identified the problems and trying to fix it. Sure the processes or methodologies may not be perfect, but it sure as hell beat the chaotic way of doing things blindly. Unlike here, when things go wrong, there will be casualties. There is no effort to stop and take a look at the whole process and fix it. Its either a technical problem, in which case as I pointed out mass exodus of technical employees and a big rehiring or in very rare cases a management mistake and a company restructure. Our mentality is always look for the blame and fix it by removing the blame. Not look at all the factors and change to adapt to it.

This post has been edited by darun: Nov 2 2006, 02:30 PM

Both actually, although you do have a point on the situation in Malaysia, where I do find that it can be worse.

Yes, I do know that foreign companies tend to look at failures and learn from it. I never denied that. However, what I'm trying to say is do not expect all foreign companies to be such as that. One thing to keep into perspective here is, do not forget that Dilbert originated from the US.

lol, true the pointy haired boss stereotype did come from there. No doubt they still have sweat-shop style companies, just our ratio is a hell lot more compared to them and it doesnt seem to be getting better at all.

"Only drones and worker ants stay late..... Staying late because other people are staying late is called "presenteism"....." - Richard Templer, the author of "The rule of work". How very true the fact he has mentioned in his book. But sometime, I believe it just couldn't be help.... For System/network admin, they have to work after work hour to troubleshoot or perform maitenance.

These jobs tends to be handled differently. Operations Engineers works in shifts, to monitor the system. Should a problem occurs which they are not able to resolve, a call will then be placed over to those system or network engineers on 2nd level support, who tend to be on call, also based on shifts.

Thus, depending on the required SLA, there may be no such thing as not staying late, as the problem will need to be resolved immediately.

Yup, for software development, it could be either mean the amount of work is more than the available resource can handle or the resource is trying to earn undeserved karma points. Neither is good for the company.

Yo talking about SAP where can we get those skills in SAP? where to learn?

IT jobs is sux..that is true but izzit only IT jobs. How about others? I think most of the jobs is sux

I must comment that definition of 'success' is very different from person to person, some would think that owning the biggest oil palm estate in Malaysia is success, while some might feel that he is the luckiest guy in the world by having a happy and caring family.

Also, another very important point is, work smart to be success, not work hard. (while 'work smart' has a different meaning according to people too, some ass might think selling fragrance oil and conning people money is smart, some might just decided to work out a proper schedule to the entire department to eliminate OT)

Am I mixing the problems, or they are the problems from the same source? Its very true that each job has a different requirement, while some might just specifically need freshie, some just cant affort to hire some jokers to play around! Business world is like the real nature, you either eating or got eaten.

These were the topic of a conference, sth like colaboration of acedemia and industry sth sth like that. So theres a few university rep and industry rep talking on the stage on this topic. In the end, there seem like no conclusion, the guy who said that industrial training undergrads are just like cheap labour kept silence after being countered by all of the uni reps(they are all dato, dr, etc). The educational people are not facing the problem directly, meanwhile continue cheating students to take part in their courses making false promise that they can be system analyst, network engineer, programmer, etc.

While industrial people, some are willing and kind enough to take in freshies, but, as darun said, supply surplus demand, they can only absorb a handful of freshies.

This post has been edited by rexis: Nov 2 2006, 05:31 PM

In my opinion, IT should be a compulsory subject in the primary schools and secondary schools. IT subjects should be combined with other courses.

Or,

The colleges or the universities should introduce the students to any other weird courses.

There's too many IT students.

Lets be a bit more specific, there's too many IT students who do not really have a clue about what should they do or the initiative to do.

Waaaay too many.

some tuition centers offer SAP. One module Rm20k.
It's much cheaper to learn by working. Not many company offers the opportunity though.

I agree on that, there are too many IT graduates who think that whatever they learned in university can bring them very far as well as brag about it. I've seen too many who have bragged about all of their skills but in the real working environment, they crumble. Why? The whole culture of IT is too wide and vague that some of it may not be industry specific but more on a general.

dats becoz u dont wanna job.u filthy rich boy.
eh,wut it hink is IT can merge with other courses la.
exemple:
MBBS with minor basic IT.
me,taking mechanical,have to study IT also.VISUAL BASIC.but,its simple.rite?

Very simple answer ...

High supply ,Low demand ....

i dont think IT is about visual basic.. IT not equal to programming

IT is about how to use, convert, manipuate a data to useful info to help in our life..

from what i understood from my degree study in IT, IT is mainly about programming,the algorithm u think to solve ur problem.

nothin else rather than that.

That's a common misconception actually. IT is not about programming, but programming is a core requirement of IT.

May I ask what is the name of the IT degree that you did, and how the outline is like?

IT is the science of using technologies to help companies develop competitive advantage. Use any technologies that adds value to business.
Programming is just one of the ways people do it.

walau....knowing just visual basic cant take u to any IT job.if like this, i think my little brother 11 years old can worl liao....

This post has been edited by edwuave: Nov 4 2006, 11:15 PM

heh, the fellow u're replying to probly thinks that a mechanical engineer can do the job of an electrical enginner as well, from the logic of his statement

More like, there's too many places offering bastardized IT courses which r completely hopeless.

I don't think this is appropriate. I'm a Computer Sc. grad doing engineering work. How do you explain that? It is what your attitude and your passion to continue learning after university days.

Actually I think most people graduated from IT background do not have the passion for it and they even memorize the coding (this I know is true, bcoz I have a lot of fren doing so). So during the interview session, they cannot demand much from their future employer as they lack of knowledge. I was able to negotiate my salary the interviewer and the guy even decided to hire me with a few hundreds off budget. Besides that, I think most people think since the competition is tough, they are willingly to reduce their salary expectation....same like discount during sales, just to get a job. For me, I think the most appropriate is to set a realistic salary expectation (pls do not reduce just becoz u c others doing so), and really study on what you should know

This post has been edited by jasontoh: Nov 5 2006, 01:55 AM

is it workers blue collar, instead of white collar?

http://www.thetechzone.com/?m=show&id=642

IT - Information Technology

The fusion of how one can use technology to harness the power of information which may benefit a company/organization either financially or in position.

IT is not all about programming, there is networking, support, sales, planning, so many thing to do with IT.

But because too many university offer IT course, and too many people took it, so end up problem like this.

basicly i think because most people only dominating the Windows Part of IT world. True there`s networking but i think most of my friend taking IT only well knew much mostly Windows Stuff. and dat`s it.

The lack of embracement in Unix and Linux OS definitely give a problem here.
I have a friend of mine making opengl program for the X windows System. The only reason he is hired because he`s the only one in the candidates that can use Unix huhu.