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 Aircon Discussion V3, Home Appliance

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halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 08:30 AM

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QUOTE(Bigblock @ Oct 10 2017, 07:50 PM)
Yes I am, they installer is supposed to come in on thursday so I have tomorrow to purchase. Any idea on price/meter?
I just saw they sell by 20m I stand corrected. Can I get a custom size? Just spoke to my installer and he said he is using standard 0.6mm for my non inverter aircond. Will that be sufficient?
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Go with thicker pipes of at least .7" to.8". Unless the copper piping is installed before 1995 you can reuse. That's because by then, China made copper pipes came into the market. Before that, the pipes are of consistently good quality.

Just to add on... based on my experience, I will insist two things with a new reno concerning ACs:
1. Professional AC installer to install piping - many a times the piping work provided by the developer are inferior and I had two strikes, one suffered a catastrophic failure but the AC's compressor protective mechanism shut down and gave a coolant loss error code.

2. Use individually jacketed insulation - there should be no temperature gradient in an AC piping. The temperature along the pipes are fairly constant within a good insulator. A gradient will exist when two pipes are insulated within the same insulator. One pipe is in liquid phase whilst the bigger one in gaseous. There'll be two temperatures hence the gradient.

All this was borne out of my fair share of headaches after which I resolve going the way SG does with residential AC piping.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 08:39 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Oct 10 2017, 10:45 PM)
hi, is it really required to switch off the wall switch?

i think most people just use the remote nowadays.

just wondering.

also from your list it seems Hitachi & Daikin allows longer pipe runs. was thinking a 1.5hp aircon but will al 2.0hp be better if the pipe is long? vertical wise not an issue most ceiling not even 5 meters.
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Yes. There's current draw even after off via remote. Some will still off via wall switch...the tell tale sign is the diffuser flap is still pointing somewhere rather than in the close position.

If your room and compressor placement doesn't require it, shouldn't pose an issue. Only when compressor placement is very far way then take vertical height limit into consideration. Those old low rise apartments where compressor placement is down at the car park whilst the blower is located as high as two floors above, it certainly becomes a factor. Or when installing compressors on the same level in a bungalow or semi D for ease of maintenance access but some rooms are third floor, compressor vertical height limit needs to be taken into consideration. A few manufacturers do not even publish vertical height limit figures like LG. You have to take the worst case assumption ie 5m. Otherwise, if installed in the ledge outside the room, then no.

If your room is first/top floor in a landed dwelling and it's hot for most hours in the night, then upsize cooling load (BTU/hr) by another 30% . LARGER pipes for 2HP can be installed and use by 1.5HP but not other way round.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 10:06 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Oct 10 2017, 11:23 PM)
hi, thanks for the links.

regarding the stand, do you have the diameter of the stainless steel to be used so i have an idea whether they are providing a stand tough enough to support the compressor under weather.

also i believe those bolts on thingy is also important so how many & how thick am i looking at (also painted stainless steel?) the surface, is just original exterior wall not sure the material.

nowadays what is the recommended gas type to use? like which one more cost efficient in terms of balance between efficiency & cost. and side question, do we take into same consideration when purchasing a fridge (and any special requirements for inverter fridge)? R22 is phased out and only recylced R22 available & it's similar to R410 but less global warming potential? R410 is widely available but expensive, and need thicker piping? Are current non-inverter AC still using CFC, and if yes is CFC still easily available?

and silly question do brand new AC comes with gas pre-filled?

and i read a post #18 here https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2347419/all,
says:"make sure that you know what is the initial amount of refrigerant (before 1st start up), so that you can put a weighing machine below the tong to ensure the real amount of refrigerant goes in." erm how do we figure out the initial amount?
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Nope. They are painted over with oil based paint if compressors are exposed to the elements. I usually trust my installers to worry about that stuff for me hence I don't know about the thickness, sorry.

Nowadays, R410a but that's probably giving way to R32. R22 ended production at least a few years ago. R410a was expensive then as supply was scarce but should not be as scarce now compared to R22.

No idea if it is prefilled. I suppose it is else it wouldn't say in some brochures "AC comes pre-charged for up to 7.5m. Exceeding that, top up x grams per meter" or something to that effect. Call the manufacturer and speak to someone technical to confirm or ask your installer.

I think the more weightier take home point in that post is whether the piping to be reused for R410a, had the previous AC installed suffer a compressor blow out. If so, change the piping. Cleaning the pipe previously used for R22 via vacuuming and doing a leak test is crucial even if there was no blowout. I had to do that with my parents AC when changing to R410a.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 10:08 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 12:00 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Oct 11 2017, 11:52 AM)
hi, can elaborate more on R32? does it require bigger & thicker pipe than R410a, or somewhere between R22 & R410a?

so nowadas even non-inverters uses R410a?
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Same piping recommended for R410a. R410a is 50% R32 and 50% blend acting as flame retardant.

Yes, even non inverters are R410a. Inverter has more complex circuitry, DC motor mostly with magnets. Thus it's more delicate and complex due to additional components.
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Oct 11 2017, 12:23 PM)
hi, so meaning even if the AC is non-inverter, if it uses r410a gas, the piping will need to be spec for r410a inverter AC?

that means any modern homes with built in pipe should be r410a spec?

since you say no way can tell if existing pipe is brass or not as they are painted (both inside & outside)?
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Older copper pipes esp those extant before 1995 should be ok as their quality are much higher grade but just that the safety margin is much less due to thinner walls. But if redoing and willing to hack get good insulated pipes.

Did I say that? AC Pipes are almost pure copper. Brass is meant for water plumbing fixtures.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 12:30 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Oct 11 2017, 01:55 PM)
sorry i mean brass. so all ac old or new all use brass copper, the difference is whether the diameter & thickness meets the requirement?

so the pipe follows gas used whether inverter or non-inverter right?
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I think you're confusing yourself. AC piping use almost pure copper. In certain countries Aluminium is available but needs specialised fitting tools. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc mostly with lead and tin forming the trace and its used for plumbing like stop cocks, water taps, etc.

Thickness is a safety factor to withstand operating pressure imposed by the refrigerant. R32 and R410a operates at 1.7/1.6 times higher than R22 respectively. For better peace of mind use pipes rated for R410a unless hacking and replacement is cost prohibitive and impractical. In that case if the pipes are installed before 1995, the previous AC suffered no blowout, vacuum clean, pressure seal test (2 weeks) and if ok you may reuse. But here, most likely the insulation covers both pipes. The proper way is to insulate each pipe individually.

Inverter refers to the mechanism by which a motor operates. They are variable rather than fixed frequency. See the YouTube above.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 03:54 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 04:08 PM

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QUOTE(Bigblock @ Oct 10 2017, 07:50 PM)
Yes I am, they installer is supposed to come in on thursday so I have tomorrow to purchase. Any idea on price/meter?
I just saw they sell by 20m I stand corrected. Can I get a custom size? Just spoke to my installer and he said he is using standard 0.6mm for my non inverter aircond. Will that be sufficient?
*
To be safe, a thicker pipe offers a better safety margin. Not wrong to use the thin ones. Don't stinge on piping and insulation. I've pm-ed you a contact.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 11 2017, 04:22 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 11 2017, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(Bigblock @ Oct 11 2017, 06:41 PM)
Thanks buddy, got the ones I need from a friend who is renovating his place. Sorted  rclxms.gif your a life savior
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From the field.

halcyon27
post Oct 13 2017, 08:40 PM

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QUOTE(yongtjunkit @ Oct 13 2017, 06:55 PM)
Is it normal for my Panasonic ac (econavy, inverter with iauto x) turns on 1 hour before the timer set for it to turn on ( set timer on 7pm, turn on and off at 6pm) for a few seconds and then turns off
This is the ac model
[attachmentid=9237783]
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What does the manual say? But why your timing so weird? It sounds like it's to be on for 23 hours?
halcyon27
post Oct 13 2017, 10:31 PM

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QUOTE(yongtjunkit @ Oct 13 2017, 10:14 PM)
The timer is for it to be on for bedtime to make sure that the room is cold, will turn it off the next morning
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Perhaps to precool the room or heat up the refrigerant. I think you meant to write 7pm-6am? Otherwise 7pm-6pm sounds long.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 13 2017, 10:32 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 16 2017, 03:06 PM

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QUOTE(mdsn @ Oct 15 2017, 07:31 PM)
Dear sifu,

I'm wondering, which brand should I buy:

1. YORK 1.5HP Inverter Air Conditioner YWM5J13AAS-W/YSL5J13AAS = RM 1,343.00 (Shopee)
2. TOSHIBA Inverter Aircond 1.5HP RAS-H13BKCV-M = RM 1,399.00 (Shopee)
3. Panasonic 1.5hp Premium Inverter + Econavi + Nanoe-G Air Conditioner CS/CUS13TKH = RM 1,675.00 (11street)

Which one is the best in terms of nationwide warranty, maintenance (spare part etc) and energy consumption?

I do prefer the York model due to new model is really attractive (LED DISPLAY TEMPERATURE) which is so nice for me.

But some shop (I went there juz to ask for their advice before making online purchase) said that Toshiba/Panasonic is much better than York brand..  hmm.gif  York new model (inverter) easily got broken and spare part is hard to find & quite expensive..is it true?

Panasonic got the highest price but higher price doesnt means best quality, am I right sifu?

Which brand do u prefer dear sifu? wub.gif

//I do prefer purchasing online due to the best price offered. but first I have to get certain which brand should I buy..

Thanks dear sifu... wub.gif  wub.gif
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I would take Panasonic out and put in Sharp AHXP12aaa where aaa=SHV1 (2015-line up) or UHD (2017 line up). Toshiba, see RAS-13N3KCV.

Toshiba pioneered inverter and air purification from which all other AC manufacturer were influenced one way or another. Sharp is a hidden jewel in terms of healthy air delivery with their gentle cool feature. The new Johnson Controls acquired York inherited Hitachi technology (through their later acquisition) with York marketing and local distributor network. I kinda like the new York line-up having seen it in use. My personal preference is towards the Sharp for it's Plasmacluster and clean feature where after use, it redirects the Plasmacluster to rid the cooling fins and drain of mould. The indirect cooling
(Gentle or Coanda cool) feature is best combined with ceiling fan such that 28°C AUTO and 2 speed ceiling fan can simulate as if it's 26°C. Healthier for kids and elderly parents.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 16 2017, 03:19 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 16 2017, 06:59 PM

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QUOTE(outpace @ Oct 16 2017, 06:40 PM)
Only if i have seen halcyon thread much more earlier, my a/C pipes, big and small are wrapped in one black insulation loosely, that's pretty common everywhere...
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Can redo if you want esp if AC is placed near above window and compressor is outdoor. Fastest way is to use Insulflex (locally manufactured) if you want to retain piping. Paircoil have to change piping but their pipes are very solid so long as bending is done correctly. Gas capture and refill will cost. Perhaps time this when general servicing is due.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 16 2017, 07:00 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 16 2017, 08:07 PM

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QUOTE(outpace @ Oct 16 2017, 07:23 PM)
thanks.

unfortunately all are burried inside the wall and ceiling for 2 rooms

can probably redo for my 2hp room. Aircond vendor will know the insuflex right?
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Insulflex (with an L between insu and flex) is standard fare. Don't get Insulon or Superlon as they are nowhere as near in performance. Some places do sell K-flex (Italian) which is also better but pricier.


halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 08:44 AM

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QUOTE(mdsn @ Oct 17 2017, 08:21 AM)
Thanks sifu halcyon...

Is it OK if I choose York Inverter instead?  hmm.gif
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No compulsion bro and if I seem pushy, my apologies, entirely your choice. Just sharing what's available out there.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 17 2017, 08:44 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(mdsn @ Oct 17 2017, 08:46 AM)
Thanks again sifu....... wub.gif  wub.gif
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You're welcome and please don't call me that. We only share our experience here.
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 10:32 AM

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QUOTE(mdsn @ Oct 17 2017, 10:24 AM)
Wow, I've found something new..(as for me)

Fujiaire 1.5HP (R410A) Air Conditioner FW/FL15V9B5 Wall Mount Inverter (Diamond Stars Series) @WIFI

this model, u can control it with ur handphone  blink.gif

juz install the wifi then u can control ur aircond with ur phone, even tho u are at ur office...

Is this an advantage or disadvantage? innocent.gif  innocent.gif

reference:

http://www.11street.my/productdetail/fujia...4066?recopick=4
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There is a device call LifeSmart SPOT which is an IR transmitter shaped in a doughnut LED designer table piece. It works for tv, AC, fans or any devices that uses infrared and within its transmission range. Head over to the Smart Home thread as it is extensively discussed there. There's also a dedicated thread to this brand.

AC is best to stick to cooling performance, economy (measured through energy efficiency ratio), reliability and air hygiene enhancing features.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 17 2017, 10:49 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 04:24 PM

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QUOTE(ubeyou @ Oct 17 2017, 03:36 PM)
Hi, I'm using a few R410a York 1.0HP inverters (purchased 2 months ago) and it has gas leaking. We have been doing basic leak test (check bubble @ exterior pipe) & refill gas, after a week and the gas leaked at least 50%.

I'm scratching my head now as I've no clue what's wrong with it as there is no bubble @ the exterior pipe. Would it be leaking in the interior unit?

I wonder if I approach York, will they provide a more advanced testing?
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Leakage can develop anywhere even embedded. If the piping had to bend from blower to compressor chances could be where there is a kink at the bend. Get another installer to verify. Are you in KL?

Worst case scenario, change the pipes. Use better insulated piping as well as a skilled installer.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 17 2017, 04:25 PM
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(ubeyou @ Oct 17 2017, 06:48 PM)
Unfortunately, I'm in Melaka. I wonder what's the normal rate for the insulated piping for pipe leaking?

I think my contractor workers collide the compressor coil while doing renovation thus internal leaking.

Do I have to select York authorized installer? I have York & Daikin over here.
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Not necessary but if you want peace of mind you can call them and ask to recommend. I found mine through my supplier and have been employing his services since.
halcyon27
post Oct 17 2017, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(outpace @ Oct 17 2017, 10:19 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Thanks.

The existing contractor, when asked, he just say the normal layout out, 2 in one insulation is workable for invertor without issue.

K-flex
Insulflex

will ask around next time
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No don't go that route. That's mixing. Insist on individual sheathed. I gather you may need to hack to widen. Wrapping two in one works but the AC will operate higher. That's the normal complaint why ppl complain inverter don't save. Two pipes with the refrigerant in different phase wrapped together in one insulation equals mixing. The compressor works harder that way.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 18 2017, 06:40 AM
halcyon27
post Oct 20 2017, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(outpace @ Oct 20 2017, 09:16 AM)
Thanks, then I think I can only ask them to hack the one beside the wall, only add in one more hole.

For living room, compressor and FCU is located back to back, so very easy to reinstall the pipe. But since the space is big, I don't have any plan to upgrade into inverter AC, cause the AC will work harder but will never reach optimal temperature.
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Commonly many models of 2.0 copper piping internal diameter utilize 1/4"(6.25mm) liquid and 1/2" (12.5mm) gas.

Not all models utilize this size for the rated cooling capacity HP ie some manufacturer's models can use larger than typically found e.g. Sharp 1.5HP uses 2.0HP pipes of others. Others even could be smaller than the typical e.g. Daikin 2.5HP can be drop in upgrade for other 2.0HP as their gas pipe internal diameter is 1/2" (12.5mm).

If you like, upgrade piping to one size bigger ie 2.5HP which commonly utilise 1/4" (6.25mm) liquid and 5/8" (15.8mm) gas. This way you can still use 2HP then upsize to 2.5HP next time. Some like the Daikin runs 3.0HP on this common 2.5HP pipe diameter esp the FTKV70.

Useful note: copper pipes connecting the compressor and FCU can be bigger than spec but never smaller. Always follow manufacturer drain hose size. For new I would always go for 19mm (3/4") internal diameter. Typically some use 5/8" (15.8mm) but larger ones have better clog free assurance.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Oct 20 2017, 10:37 AM

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