Hi,

It is possible to even install a inverter aircon using non inverter piping?
What will happen is do?

Regards

oo .. i don't know inverter aircond need inverter piping.. since my retailer shop want to install this saturday.. it got to know..

yes and no.

no for all inverters that run of CFC friendly gas.

yes for daikin because they still use the (obsolute) old type R22.

This is the R410 type? How much do air-con installers charge for refill of this gas typically?

he is referring to Daikin FTKD25DVM / RKD25DVM - HP:1


Its INverter but using non-inverter piping and R22 gas...the only Inverter aircond that is using R22 and Non Inverter piping

If you ask many a/c installer you can do it because they just solder a connection pipe.

Check with the a/c installer, is better to ask them for advice. Many of us here are guessing.

my piping is all concealed and it was done by my contractor before the aircon was installed by a different people. i'm using the latest panasonic inverter aircon.

i told my contractor to install inverter piping and he told me his people installed non-inverter piping. sh*t!!!

i am wonder it's possible for the aircon installer to not notice the difference in piping?

mine using York Model Y5WMY10 1.0hp .. so no need inverter piping .. how can i know they using CFC friendly gas??

It is not the installer problem. It will effect your aircon performance or something wrong with your aircon.

You read the manual right?

since they will install this saturday.. so i don't have any..

Sorry, I thaught the aircon already at your side. Why don't you rang up the shop and ask. And you still have a time to change if you want.

I read manual from internet .. refrigerant type : R410A .. is this CFC friendly gas??

hi, my developer has already install the a/c piping when i got the key..

so, how would i know whether the pipe is for inverter or non-inverter??

R410A is Ozone friendly gas but NOT environmental friendly gas. It still cause Green House effect to our Earth.

Yes,CFC friendly gas. It is the latest gas that some aircon use. My inverter aircon is using this gas too. The problem is, you need to remind them when you want service your aircon. Mostly service guy still don't know about this gas. So I don't bother to top up the gas.

ooo.. ok ..

Dear All,

The below will be my experience speaking.

R22 (HCFC) gas/ Freon/ refrigerant is what you use in most of the non-inverter models, regardless of brands. The R22 has lower operating pressure, hence it states that you need thinner gas tubes. Top up on this kind of is possible.

R410A (HFC) is the “new” gas where the operating pressure is approimately 1.6 to 1.8 times higher than R22, hence some of the manufacturer is recommending thicker tubes. However, these thicker tubes is not easily available in the market according to market spec, hence the price for these tubes will be high and not lots of installer carries stock. Top up on this kind of refrigerant is also possible, as the boiling point for all the refrigerant mixture is almost the same.

CFC is no longer available in the market. Banned long ago because of the effect to the environment. Production of R22 has been stopped in early this year, and what you get in the market now is recycled R22. Manufacturer assume that the price of R22 will go up as short of supply.

R410A is environmental friendly refrigerant as it does not deplete ozone/ zero ozone depletion potential (zero ODP). However, it still has certain level of Global Warming Potential (GWP). R22 on the other has a very low ODP, and relatively lower GWP compared to R410A

Installer will tell you the below 3 things about inverter pipings:-

1) Nothing will happen if you use thinner tubes, all my customer did not complain
2) Thick tubes I don’t have
3) I buy the tubes for you but it will be bloody expensive

I will say, if you already have new set of tubes installed in the wall, I will say go for it. Some of the manufacturer over-spec-ed their pipe thickness to cover their ass just in case things happened. My experience is the 0.33mm tube thickness (1/4”), 0.56mm tube thickness (1/2”) can with stand 600pascal testing pressure (approximately 450pascal operating pressure). The worst thing that will happen is that the tube will crack and gas will leak. No big deal actually. Since you have already concealed the wall, it is the matter of hacking it now or later. What if the tube did not crack? I am using inverter units with standard piping. Nothing happens…yet. If you are installing new, just get a thick pipe, so that there is no worry.

Tips for new installation of Inverter AC.

1) Make sure that they use the correct tool. For inverter AC, they will have a special gauge for inverter units
2) If you are recharging/ top up your R410A, make sure that the colour of the refrigerant tong is in pink, not other colour. R410A refrigerant only has one packaging. If they tell you can be used, chase them away. Don’t let them charge. Please note also brand new ACs do not need to add gas unless you exceeded their standard pipe length. If your installer says need to add gas, evaluate the piping length. If the piping does not exceed the standard length, and your installer says you need to add, he is conning you.
3) Just in case in any circumstance you are releasing all and re-charging the refrigerant to full, make sure that you know what is the initial amount of refrigerant (before 1st start up), so that you can put a weighing machine below the tong to ensure the real amount of refrigerant goes in. Installer in Malaysia uses only the gauge to measure. This is not wrong, but not really accurate. The pressure goes up by certain level, does not mean that the gas has go in at a certain weight.
4) Make sure that the refrigerant tong is at the right position (standing or reverse standing for certain tong model), to ensure gas form refrigerant is charged SLOWLY into the AC, not liquid. Liquid form of refrigerant will damage compressor at start up.
5) Make sure that the flaring of piping is done properly, no crack, no uneven, etc and please read the manual
6) Make sure your installer vacuum the system (standard procedure) at least for 20 minutes (not Malaysia standard procedure) to take out any residue in the piping before releasing the refrigerant from outdoor to the system. Imagine copper pipe cutting debris goes into your compressor.
7) If you have compressor burnt out and you wish to change AC, I will say dump the existing piping. If there is no choice, get your installer to vacuum the system kao kao kao kao before starting up. This is because burnt out compressor will have lots of “burn dirt” from compressor, sticking on to the pipes, and affecting the performance. Even if the performance is not your concern, the debris which still sticks to the pipe might come out one day and goes to your compressor. Compressor dies fast.
8) After the unit has been start up, the installer will run AC with full blast and lowest set temperature. This is standard procedure, but the important thing is to make sure the refrigerant runs to all indoor unit’s piping, to make sure that there is no clogging. How to do it? Only by touching every portion of fins to feel if it is cold and to see if all the parts has condensation water formed on it. Please differentiate between dripped condensation water and formed condensation water. If everything is OK, you are good to go.

This is just my personal experience and opinion..

I m going to install concealed NORMAL Piping for my renovation. This has been decided after I have asked a few questions to myself and also consulted some friends in the AC industry.

1) Are you installing Inverter ACs? Do you need Inverters?

2) Budget - Inverter piping is more expensive by about RM4-5 /
ft....might end up RM1-2k more ure paying depending on units and distance of piping

3) Inverter ACs maintenance - R410 is more expensive. Cleaning and chemical washing..we're looking at RM200-RM300 or more for 1HP AC

4) WHen is R22 phasing out...my friend told me approx. 10 years ..assuming he is correct...i think 10 yrs...is more than enuff

5) Inverter will only reduce power usage if it's continuously on for maybe about 8 hours or more

-------------------------------------

My Conclusion:

1) Inverter only suitable for my rooms cos I will on more than 8 hours...so for my rooms I m going to use Daikin Inverter that runs on R22 and normal piping

2) The rest are all using normal AC



Hope that helps

This post has been edited by coconutzz: May 16 2012, 11:39 AM

Please note, there is no soldering involved in the installation of Room Air-Cond. It will involves only flaring.

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Added on May 16, 2012, 11:46 amCheck it from the label on unit.

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Added on May 16, 2012, 11:49 amUse "venier" clipper, measure and match it against the standard piping thickness in the market. I am not sure if the "venier" is spell as "venier", but it sounded like that.

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Added on May 16, 2012, 11:55 amInverter start saving after the room condition has stabilised and the compressor RPM tunes down and slows down without needing to start stopping, hence saves energy. To achieve stable room condition, you need approximately 3 hours or less (not 8 hours or more), unless you open and close your door very frequest through put the time. Maintenance of Inverter AC is more expensive because of the refrigerant. Chemical used to wash the coil will be the same. Piping is also more expensive. Depending how is your ussage, inverter can be a good or bad choice. My view is that there is no point getting an inverter AC for living room which only uses AC for 1 hour. Can't save energy.


This post has been edited by lingleeyen: May 16 2012, 11:55 AM

Either 8hr use or less, overtime the inverter will payback the cost. Compare non inverter. The cost of the pipe and the aircon won't different alot.

I m using 1.5hp inverter with about 20ft of pipe. The cost + install is RM2200. With everyday usage of 8hr, monthly save is about rm40-45. 1yrs save me rm540. Service 1x peryear is rm100. It take me 2yrs to get back my money save compare non inverter even include service. The amount save is I compare with my last time non inverter unit.

So either 2hr or 8hr use, I still will go for inverter. Payback either long or short. Just my experience.

R410 and R22 gas is depend how enviroment friendly you are. If you care and want to contribute a bit to the enviroment, than change it. It doesn't cost you much. You don't need to top up every year.

Ozak wat brand of inverter a/c r u using? Service is only RM100/yr?

Panasonic. Actually only cost rm75 the last I service back last year. The service is just takedown flush and clean the condenser and rotor. And outdoor unit clean. The cheap cost is not related to the aircon brand.

copper pipe can be solder, my previous unit in my mom house have to be solder because the indoor unit was twisted. So far no problem with leaking.

This post has been edited by weikee: May 16 2012, 07:23 PM

Copper tubes of course can be welded. What I mean is that under normal circumstances and normal installation, room air conds are just simple plug and play. Also, welding of copper pipes then operates without pre-testing does not really garuantee the quality of the weld.

BTW, please enlighten me on how is the indoor unit twisted?

Twisted because it was taken out for cleaning the worker must have accidentally bend the copper. Boss cut the affected, and re solder. I think the correct word for copper joining is solder, not weld.

Not just solder, flared then solder

The correct term in joining 2 Copper pipes is weld. Solder is when you do KH projects, soldering the IC or capacitor

The correct terminology would be soldering the copper tubing. A propane torch is the primary tool used to solder copper tubing.
As the copper tubing is soft, the heat from welding process would melt the copper piping...

Eh... I thing it is not the correct way. It did need a propane torch to heat up the 2 copper pipe joint. But not melt it. A solder wire lead is need to melt and joint up the copper pipe. And you need a flux to clean up the joint side.

I paid RM300 for standard installation fee for my new 1.5hp inverter aircon. If the installer cheat on the copper piping thickness, how can I spot the difference ?

Yes. Anyway some use the term welding, but in actual copper you can't weld well unless we have a ultrasonic welder which make me wonder which a/c installer want to invest such machine.

Never see ppl using ultrasonic before. For copper welding, the old type is using something like copper lead. Blaze the copper joint till red and melt the copper lead to the joint. I can't remember the name as quite sometime I never done it.

New way just heat it up and use solder lead. Both need flux and sandpaper to be clean well.

Ultrasonic is use in high tech electronic industry. That is called welding. Even for plastic too.

Yup. My working place have a lot of this ultrasonic welding. Kena burn by it too.

I suppose its not a problem to use non-inverter aircons with inverter type piping, rite?
Coz my house comes wif all inverter type piping..

if the pipes connect it should be no problem. it's just that the pipe needs to be able to withstand the refridgerant's pressure. since non-inverter pressure is lower i dont see any problem.

Hi, could you recommend any contractor that match all the above criteria?...and if got price also better..coz i see before those useless contractor that didn't vacuum the pipes which cause the compressor to burn even thought its a new ac...

for ppl who want to do conceal, just to share the price of copper pipe 1/4+1/2" .71mm cooper tubing 15meter long is around rm243 for korean smartco pipe, if china pipe is around rm190.

Oh. My mistake. The correct terminology is brazing. Not welding, not soldering definitely.

lingleeyen
thank you for feedback

need your advice. if a non-inverter Aircon installed to the inverter type piping, is that ok or not ? need to worry anything.. ?
thanks

I am using R22 refrigerant air conditioners on inverter type piping. So far no problem.

This post has been edited by *CG*: Jun 29 2013, 11:21 AM

okok...noted that. pheeew...relief than..

another thing about the gas copper piping horizontal line, it must be heading-downwards to the Aircon unit, anyone knows / can confirm that?




reason is, the contractor said my piping outlet is facing upwards to the Aircon. So, the contractor must push very hard to tilt about it.
(I'm not talking about the water pipe)
thanks

So far any review or feedback if inverter air cond use with non inverter piping?

Anyone use inverter A/C with standard piping?
Any issue and feedback?

want to know too

No aircond sifu?

If gauge less than G24 or G25 copper at bend junction will be break sometime

At least used G23 and above.

Check here
http://singapore-aircon-materials.blogspot...3/gfdg.html?m=1

Inverter and Non-Inverter use different Piping.

i'm using 1hp normal a/c at the moment, however the room is not cold enough
Therefore im thinking of upgrading to 1.5hp
But R22 A/C is difficult to find now........

Can i buy R410A (non inverter) and use back my piping?.. My piping all concealed , came with house. (5 years old).

I heard need to flush the pipe and make sure it is clean..

You can't use back old piping. Since different refrigerant.

You have to remove and replace new by installer.

This post has been edited by TXSim: Apr 28 2016, 11:34 PM

r410 piping is thicker..

Bad advice since you don't mention anything about why the old piping cannot use a different refrigerant..

Apa la awak!!!

This is Lowyat Forum. Not a place to argue.

Inverter and Non-inverter use different piping.

Since Non-inverter used thin pipe.

Inverter use thick pipe, as spreeee mention it.

Think properly before you post.

In Aircon Discussion V3.

No one posted bad advice like you.

You are junior member in Lowyat Forum, not senior member.

Post wrong or right doesn't matter, other people will correct it.

Don't think this is the place to get 100% answer.


This post has been edited by TXSim: May 3 2016, 11:09 PM

Its a discussion, my brother installs aircon and (copy pasted)




What is not mentioned is R410a used in Inverter Air conditioners runs at a higher pressure than R22 thus the need for thicker copper tubes..

But the regular R22 copper tube can still withstand that higher running pressure only it doesn't have the same safety factor of not springing a leak..

I would advice save money, use back the existing conceal copper tubes with the inverter aircon.. a properly installed R22 copper tube can easily handle the pressure ..

Edit* Just to add..

If you have an installer asking you to replace R22 piping it's not because there's anything wrong with the existing pipes..

My brother says the same thing to his customers all the time.. the installer (like my brother) makes more money ...
like i said he installs aircon..

This post has been edited by Richard: May 3 2016, 11:40 PM

hi there, since it's 2017, mind to ask are all current aircons sold in market (inverter/non-inverter) all using R410A gases? or by chance non-inverters still using CFC gas?

and anyway to check current piping if they are inverter ready? non-inverter pipes they use pvc, normal metal? inverter pipes use brass? so inverter pipes should look gold/bronze color?

and to figure out it's spec for R22 or R410a, we have to measure the inner diameter & thickness of the pipe (can only measure the outlet since bends are hidden).

and can you tell us the recommended inner diameter & thickness for both R22 & R410A gas? can R22 run efficiently on the bigger & thicker R410A pipe?

also i would assume it's safer to run smaller hp AC with R410A on R22 pipe as smaller AC have lower pressure output?

This post has been edited by advocado: Oct 11 2017, 12:06 AM

Just a question. if I want to install a non-inverter aircond using inverter piping I presume it is ok?

Short answer definitely but the issue is not inverter or non inverter but what type of gas is used in the inverter or non inverter AC.

Mostly what's sold now uses R410a gas with R32 as the replacement over that. Older AC we grew up with uses freon and then R22 which was was phased out. R22 based AC are current install base in many homes but market available are now R410a and in appearing recently in small numbers R32.

Turning the question around should be what pipe thickness is safe for R410a/R32 based AC. Thus, it boils down to what thickness of AC copper pipe is able to withstand the operating pressure of R410a and R32 with a high margin of safety.

Thickness is stated in standard wire gauge numbers but now commonly in millimetres. Older pipes uses to be gauge 25 (0.51mm), 24 (0.56mm) or 23 (0.61mm). These are ok for R22.

R410/R32 however operates at 1.6/1.7 times higher pressure than R22. The minimum thickness recommended for their use is 0.71mm or 0.76mm but now many AC manufacturers specify 0.81mm minimum. There are AC pipe manufacturers do manufacture other thickness like 0.89mm, 0.91 mm or 1.0mm and higher. There are AC like multi split systems that could require thicker like 0.9 or 1.0mm or more. They are also used in [update: VRV] or in tandem with cooling and heating that are only common in European markets.

That said, follow the manufacturer specification in the installation manual. Panasonic and Fujitsu normally recommends 0.81mm pipe thickness for R410a. A good example is seen here.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 9 2017, 11:38 AM