Standardization takes away some freedom from the traders. Contrary to what goldfries said about the community not having the intelligence to follow standards, it actually requires less intelligence to follow them. They'd just be following prepared standards, whilst otherwise they'd have to exercise creative judgement when performing something.

For the proposals you made, I would say most of them should be guidelines, not enforced standards - because they are quite inflexible.

We need picture or video which shows the item in working condition. - Countless items will suffer from this. How do you show a video of RAM or headphones working, or items which are brand new?

Standard packing procedure which need to be followed. Seller to bare with the packing cost. - I suppose a minimum packing requirement would be a good idea for buyer protection. How often does packing problems been raised in TZDC though?

Standard freight procedure, charges, forwarding company, DHL, Fedex or any other more reliable one for fragile item. Buyer to bare the shipping cost. Tracking (if available) MUST be sent to buyer. - no comments.

Standardised personal warranty, since it very vague now. - I propose a hybrid solution - we can write out a standard "Personal Warranty", or allow people to continue using their own "personal warranty".

Standard return/refund policy. You don't return an item just because u don't like it. Money to be returned 7 days after item was received. - OK.

Standard sending policy, e.g. item must be send within 7 days after the sales is agreed. Buyer to bank in money within 7 days after sales is sealed. - OK.

Things like CDs, movies has no warranty despite any caused, unless of course it's not readable. This is because most of the ppl will definitely abuse the warranty. Copy the media and return for watever reason they can come up with. - Up to the seller.

Verification of seller and buyer, IC + current bill as proof, company registration (for company seller) - This won't make it to be a guideline due to privacy reasons. Companies are also not allowed to trade here.

cod face 2 face is da best n test everything b4 buy.......

wkkay: ya as i mention earlier, there are still some stuff like warranty and return policy which can be set by seller and to be agreed by buyer. It's more to like if there is a need to return, wat are the standard procedure. time frame the item is returned. Time frame for the money to be returned back to buyer also

standard warranty policy. Many of the item are 2nd hand and sold 'as it is'. You can't expect it to look like a new one. So the photos uploaded will play a major part here. For an item, we need at least 6 different angle of shots.

Brand new item will of course doesn't need to be taken out from the box and i believe most of the thing is covered by warranty which is normally longer than the 7 days personal warranty.

and yes, we are not here to enforced these standard. If a standard procedure is broken and brought up in the Dispute corner, it's quite clear wat should be done unless they doesn't follow it. But i see alot will be easily resolved as i believe both parties wanted protection and will definitely follow.

ya who should be after those wrong DOer, well this is why the verification come in handy, if necessary, seller/buyer information will be passed to victim and he can do watever he wants. Of course during the verificaiton process, get them to agree that LYN has the right to distribute ur personal information bla bla bla. LYN will not take any responsibility for anything happen to you if the information is distributed bla bla bla. You agree to follow the LYN standard trading policy unless stated otherwise bla bla bla

No suggestion here is going to do shit. Let me make that clear. People aren't conned most of the time because they're smart and intelligent, no. It's because they're stupid and decide to ignore the obvious for either obviously unrealistic terms or unrealistic gains.

What i can propose is an extention of the LYN wiki with suggestion to how people should trade. I certainly have no expectations for precedure around here, i trade how i like to trade because i like to trade that way, for forumers i know, i bulk their items before they pay, because i trust them although some won't even come near to what i do, at the end of the day is a matter of preference. But the point here is, we can't give people guidelines, but we can advise them.

Here are a few suggestion that might work, who knows.

- Trader Wiki based off the LYN wiki allowing for tips to be shared and such. Edited in good manner, it can help alot of newbies. KISS rule applies.

- Educational Video. Stream it off the server, do it flash or something like the dudes on the STEAM forums. eg; Hey kids, let's watch an educational video! Part one, if it's too good to be true, it probably is, like candy shitting pink unicons!

- Everytime a thread is opened up on tradezone, a simple reminder can be given in bold red eg; Trading guidelines, links to wiki, last minute tips, how to use a hair curler.......

Educate, not mollycoddle. It's as simple as that.

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:26 AM

Well alright those of you who want IC verification so much, here's a suggestion :

Whenever u buy something from someone, ask for their IC and details
If they refuse to give, dont trade with him

This way its simple, those who want extra security can ask for it themselves. Those who are willing to take the risk wont have to

Now why wouldn't anyone/you want to do this?
The answer to that is 1 of the reasons why it will not be implemented for everyone

And digilife, dont start turning this into another personal attack royal rumble

This post has been edited by KilJim: Oct 15 2006, 03:24 PM

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:27 AM

all this talk, and digilife has yet to volunteer to do anything.

why are you avoiding the offer?

you talk a lot, yet when me and the other TEs suggest that you actually start doing something instead of just talking cock, you conveniently avoid the question.

theres a world of difference between freedom of speech and simply talking out of your ass. IMHO, you cant tell the difference.

And lets say we implement IC verification as in lelong.com which u suggested
How would we at LYN know if the IC handed in belongs to the seller too?
You've just shot your own suggestion down with that post

Why was that post deleted?
I'm not too sure and didnt even see the post yet, but if its like your post #45 i know why
Give me 1 single reason how that post is constructive?
If i were to reply "No digi, it wont work, you're stupid" i'd expect my post to be deleted too

This post has been edited by KilJim: Oct 15 2006, 04:51 PM

digilife, I'll be frank with you. Your ideas suck because they put the traders' interests first, and LYN's next. Not only that, I don't see you defending your ideas when people (who happen to be some of our oldest members) argue against them.

Freedom of speech isn't absolute. Here in LYN, your right to free speech ends where it starts directly offending people. In the case of this thread, it's where you made unprovoked personal attacks at goldfries.


I'll leave this thread open, as a window-dressing so that digilife can't complain that we're some bunch of nazis closing his thread. But I do recommend to the other mods around not to participate in it anymore. It's clearly going nowhere.

goldfries, can you split the topic and move Infinity and empire's and maybe some other posts out. They're worth keeping for proper discussion.

i agree, if this were to be made part of the procedure, it needs to be documented down that buyer has right to deny buying the item if seller refuse to give them their ICs... so seller don't come up winding about buyer doesn't buy, it's a policy in LYN. No question ask.

Yes suggestion and more suggestion is wat going to contribute and help in improving the current situation. Give me some time, i'll run through Trade Dispute and see wat else is missing and post it here.

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:27 AM

i don't really like the idea of submitting I.C.
imho it's against privacy, most of time i rather kept myself anonymous.

i guess there was no shortcut to gain reputation here,
nothing i can suggest buy slowly build up ownself reputation by buying/selling.
for those whom are newly join it would be difficult since their history are blank.
and nowaday quite some number of conmen/conwomen appears.

u are the tai kor, when ppl go against your ideas,
u shoot ppl like loose cannon.
don't speak of freedom of speech,
u've got the freedom to talk, and others also have the freedom to accept/reject it. you don't have to force everyone to accept your idea(s).

let's discuss it in a civilized manner.

do you even understand the meaning of the word volunteer?

seriously, im glad that you feel so strongly about this, and i applaud the fact that you are trying to speak up, but until i actually see you do, and complete whatever it is that you are saying, to me you're just spouting a whole lot of hot air.

do we really need to ASK or TELL you to do anything about all this? if you really understand the meaning of the term 'volunteer', then by all means, i'd like to see you actually put all your big words in action.

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:27 AM

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:28 AM

so i attacked you first? LOL. i assume you are referring to post #35. you call that an attack?

haha. it's barely even an attack, even so you had to defend yourself by going personal, lame counter-attack there. bad try.

it's amazing that you started a thread but you just can't take negative comments or feedback.

in fact your post at #33 actually is provoking Mod / TE - however being nice people we are, we just know from which point of view you're posting from.

i'm leaving post #45 here. i like it. LOL. leave it here for the record.




probably i should phrase "the lack of mental capability" instead but i think you guys get what i mean. been monitoring TZ and i find people have problem following instructions and stuff. oh well..... just learn to live with them.

for the sake of coherency in discussion, i'd like to leave the posts as it is for now. is that alright?


Post #45 lor. that's called personal attack just in case you don't know what it is.

unfortunately, i'm not the guy who deleted your post since my last login at LYN was Sunday morning 4am++ and i've not done anything until less than an hour ago, composing this reply. and my internet connection isn't being helpful!!!

anyway i like the idea of guideline, not enforced standards. (as discussed by Infinity and WkKay) i like the idea to have a generally accepted rule for Personal Warranty (PW), where in cases that if no details of PW given then the PW will be based on what is stated on the guideline.

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:28 AM

hey, if ur up to it, im all for it. how about you start off by coming up with a guideline of what you plan to do.

next thing would be to see what the admins and mods think about this.

just be warned, expect much criticism, so be prepared to have proper facts and arguments to back up your points, else this whole thing won't go very far. you have to realise, we have nothing against you personally, but something like this needs to be attacked from as many angles as possible, to ensure a reasonably foolproof plan, hence the criticism.

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This post has been edited by digilife: Oct 17 2006, 12:28 AM