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 LYN Catholic Fellowship V01 (Group), For Catholics (Roman or Eastern)

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subimpact
post Mar 9 2015, 04:12 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:08 PM)
Catholics don't believe that the pope is a divine being. However, the teaching of papal infallibility says that the Holy Spirit will protect the Pope from error when defining an article of faith intending to bind all the faithful.

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." - Pastor Aeternus.

Of course we believe the Pope is human and can make mistakes, but not when he intends to bind all the faithful to believe in an article of faith. For example, Pope John Paul II teaching that the Church has no power to ordain women. Or Pope Pius XII defining the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, which is not a new teaching but has always been believed by the Church for ages.
*
okay cool thanks... so its just a fore figure for Catholics then ?
TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE(subimpact @ Mar 9 2015, 04:12 PM)
okay cool thanks...  so its just a fore figure for Catholics then ?
*
Not sure what you mean by fore figure.
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:25 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:08 PM)
Catholics don't believe that the pope is a divine being. However, the teaching of papal infallibility says that the Holy Spirit will protect the Pope from error when defining an article of faith intending to bind all the faithful.

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." - Pastor Aeternus.

Of course we believe the Pope is human and can make mistakes, but not when he intends to bind all the faithful to believe in an article of faith. For example, Pope John Paul II teaching that the Church has no power to ordain women. Or Pope Pius XII defining the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, which is not a new teaching but has always been believed by the Church for ages.
*
For the record, the Pope's infallibility only extends to 'ex-Cathedra', i.e. he needs to be sitting in the chair of St. Peter in the Cathedral when pronouncing doctrine.

His pronunciations must be based on Church documents, encyclicals, papal bulls, and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In addition, the college of Cardinals and Synods must be held before these pronunciation are made. And always, all these must be related to matters of Christian / Catholic faith.

Outside of that circumstance, he can still be subject to human error.
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(subimpact @ Mar 9 2015, 04:12 PM)
okay cool thanks...  so its just a fore figure for Catholics then ?
*
Not just a fore (figure) head, the succession of Popes trace all the way back to St. Peter. He is considered the first, and therefore, Prince of the Apostles of Christ. This is an unbroken lineage.

To be appointed Pope today, is akin to being appointed by Christ Himself. Hence the term, "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" ... where the term 'Apostolic' refers to this appointment.

This post has been edited by khool: Mar 9 2015, 04:28 PM
TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 04:30 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Mar 9 2015, 04:25 PM)
For the record, the Pope's infallibility only extends to 'ex-Cathedra', i.e. he needs to be sitting in the chair of St. Peter in the Cathedral when pronouncing doctrine.

His pronunciations must be based on Church documents, encyclicals, papal bulls, and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In addition, the college of Cardinals and Synods must be held before these pronunciation are made. And always, all these must be related to matters of Christian / Catholic faith.

Outside of that circumstance, he can still be subject to human error.
*
Ermm....ex-Cathedra is the Latin meaning from the chair, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be actually sitting down on his throne.

It is not correct to say that he must consult the college of Cardinals and Synods before pronouncing anything infallibly. The power of the Pope is even above that of Ecumenical Councils, Cardinals, Synods. It just needs to be related to matters of faith and morals and in accordance with the the constant Tradition of the Church or Scripture.

See The Pope

Picture of Pius XII defining the Assumption of Mary:
user posted image

Picture of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception:
user posted image

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 9 2015, 04:38 PM
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:30 PM)
Ermm....ex-Cathedra is the Latin meaning from the chair, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be actually sitting down on his throne.

It is not correct to say that he must consult the college of Cardinals and Synods before pronouncing anything infallibly. The power of the Pope is even above that of Ecumenical Councils, Cardinals, Synods. It just needs to be related to matters of faith and morals and in accordance with the the constant Tradition of the Church or Scripture.
*
That is true, he can make pronunciations solo, that is his right, however if the pope were to announce that tomorrow day is night and night is day, everyone would not be obligated to listen to him.

... but as a matter of Sacred Tradition, that is Tradition with a capital "T", such pronunciations are made from the Chair, with counsel from the College of Cardinals and Synods.

This post has been edited by khool: Mar 9 2015, 04:38 PM
TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 04:39 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Mar 9 2015, 04:38 PM)
That is true, he can make pronunciations solo, that is his right, however if the pope were to announce that tomorrow day is night and night is day, everyone would not be obligated to listen to him.

... but as a matter of Sacred Tradition, that is Tradition with a capital "T", such pronunciations are made from the Chair, with counsel from the College of Cardinals and Synods.
*
Yes but if he defines tomorrow day is night and night is day, that is not related to faith and morals.
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:40 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:39 PM)
Yes but if he defines tomorrow day is night and night is day, that is not related to faith and morals.
*
hence the term, ex-cathedra ... matters only related to Christianity.
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:30 PM)
Ermm....ex-Cathedra is the Latin meaning from the chair, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be actually sitting down on his throne.

It is not correct to say that he must consult the college of Cardinals and Synods before pronouncing anything infallibly. The power of the Pope is even above that of Ecumenical Councils, Cardinals, Synods. It just needs to be related to matters of faith and morals and in accordance with the the constant Tradition of the Church or Scripture.

See The Pope

Picture of Pius XII defining the Assumption of Mary:
user posted image

Picture of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception:
user posted image
*
Oooh ... I like the second painting ... who is the artist???
TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 04:43 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Mar 9 2015, 04:41 PM)
Oooh ...  I like the second painting ... who is the artist???
*
No idea, I just grabbed it from Google image lol...
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 04:45 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:43 PM)
No idea, I just grabbed it from Google image lol...
*
hahaha! no worries ... still cool! biggrin.gif icon_idea.gif rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif rclxm9.gif

TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 05:23 PM

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QUOTE(khool @ Mar 9 2015, 04:45 PM)
hahaha! no worries ... still cool! biggrin.gif icon_idea.gif  rclxm9.gif  rclxm9.gif  rclxm9.gif
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Found it:

user posted image

by Francesco Podesti. The image is currently in the Vatican Museum. Here's another perspective:

user posted image

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 9 2015, 05:27 PM
khool
post Mar 9 2015, 05:52 PM

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Yeeck ... thanks bro! Much appreciated! biggrin.gif
TSyeeck
post Mar 9 2015, 11:47 PM

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A well-sung and well-known hymn sung in Catholic churches during Lent.


de1929
post Mar 10 2015, 10:31 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:08 PM)
Catholics don't believe that the pope is a divine being. However, the teaching of papal infallibility says that the Holy Spirit will protect the Pope from error when defining an article of faith intending to bind all the faithful.

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." - Pastor Aeternus.

Of course we believe the Pope is human and can make mistakes, but not when he intends to bind all the faithful to believe in an article of faith. For example, Pope John Paul II teaching that the Church has no power to ordain women. Or Pope Pius XII defining the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven, which is not a new teaching but has always been believed by the Church for ages.
*
QUOTE(khool @ Mar 9 2015, 04:25 PM)
For the record, the Pope's infallibility only extends to 'ex-Cathedra', i.e. he needs to be sitting in the chair of St. Peter in the Cathedral when pronouncing doctrine.

His pronunciations must be based on Church documents, encyclicals, papal bulls, and especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In addition, the college of Cardinals and Synods must be held before these pronunciation are made. And always, all these must be related to matters of Christian / Catholic faith.

Outside of that circumstance, he can still be subject to human error.
*
QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 9 2015, 04:30 PM)
Ermm....ex-Cathedra is the Latin meaning from the chair, but it doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be actually sitting down on his throne.

It is not correct to say that he must consult the college of Cardinals and Synods before pronouncing anything infallibly. The power of the Pope is even above that of Ecumenical Councils, Cardinals, Synods. It just needs to be related to matters of faith and morals and in accordance with the the constant Tradition of the Church or Scripture.

See The Pope

Picture of Pius XII defining the Assumption of Mary:
user posted image

Picture of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception:
user posted image
*
may i ask biggrin.gif... If Pope declares war against something else (i mean war using guns and tanks)... His decision are considered righteous correct ?
TSyeeck
post Mar 10 2015, 11:25 AM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Mar 10 2015, 10:31 AM)
may i ask biggrin.gif... If Pope declares war against something else (i mean war using guns and tanks)... His decision are considered righteous correct ?
*
You think the present Pope still have a big territories (Papal States) and army now? LOL....

If you are referring to the First Crusades preached by Urban II, then it was a response to the Muslim invasion and occupation of Jerusalem and the harassment of pilgrims going to the Holy Places.

Also this is not part of faith and morals so his actions would be dependent on whether they are based on just war theory, self defence, etc.

Now that you mentioned this topic, I think a Crusade is relevant now to repel ISIS based on what they have been doing so far. But that would be far-fetched considering the international political scene today.
de1929
post Mar 10 2015, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 10 2015, 11:25 AM)
You think the present Pope still have a big territories (Papal States) and army now? LOL....

If you are referring to the First Crusades preached by Urban II, then it was a response to the Muslim invasion and occupation of Jerusalem and the harassment of  pilgrims going to the Holy Places.

Also this is not part of faith and morals so his actions would be dependent on whether they are based on just war theory, self defence, etc.

Now that you mentioned this topic, I think a Crusade is relevant now to repel ISIS based on what they have been doing so far. But that would be far-fetched considering the international political scene today.
*
hahaha... i am referring to word papal infallibility.

I think when pope has instruction from Holy Spirit to do declare war like my point above, then people should think that under provision of Holy Spirit, there will be a supplies of need and blessing (of course additional tanks n guns biggrin.gif).... why ? cuz it's HS that gives instruction.

what do u think ?



TSyeeck
post Mar 10 2015, 12:07 PM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Mar 10 2015, 11:53 AM)
hahaha... i am referring to word papal infallibility.

I think when pope has instruction from Holy Spirit to do declare war like my point above, then people should think that under provision of Holy Spirit, there will be a supplies of need and blessing (of course additional tanks n guns biggrin.gif).... why ? cuz it's HS that gives instruction.

what do u think ?
*
As mentioned above it has nothing to do with infallibility. It should be considered in the light of Church teaching on just war, self-defence, etc. If someone claims he or she has instructions from the Holy Spirit, etc, then there must be an unmistakable sign to prove that. The Catholic Church is very particular about alleged miracles, signs, prophecies. All these are judged by the Church in light of constant Church teaching, Sacred Tradition, Scripture... to be sure that there are no diabolical forces at work.


de1929
post Mar 10 2015, 12:50 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 10 2015, 12:07 PM)
As mentioned above it has nothing to do with infallibility. It should be considered in the light of Church teaching on just war, self-defence, etc. If someone claims he or she has instructions from the Holy Spirit, etc, then there must be an unmistakable sign to prove that. The Catholic Church is very particular about alleged miracles, signs, prophecies. All these are judged by the Church in light of constant Church teaching, Sacred Tradition, Scripture... to be sure that there are no diabolical forces at work.
*
so if pope (not someone else), who is with bestowed papal infallibility, got instruction from HS about declaring a war, will the church still consider pope instruction ?
TSyeeck
post Mar 10 2015, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Mar 10 2015, 12:50 PM)
so if pope (not someone else), who is with bestowed papal infallibility, got instruction from HS about declaring a war, will the church still consider pope instruction ?
*
How do you know he got instruction from HS? And certainly have to consider based on the principles mentioned earlier.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 10 2015, 12:53 PM

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