Well, we can't be selective, can we? . Just as you have faith in the Spirit, you have to have faith and believe that there is a reality of righteousness as conveyed in the Bible. Otherwise, there is no authority left in the Word ... also no faith, no reality. The world has its label of righteousness but we are not talking about that. Here, the context, is the righteousness of the Spirit.

??? I can't seem to link the logic of a hypothetical spy's licence to kill to the Spirit's allowing one to kill because of his job?? I am assuming you are giving a example where the spy is a Christian and knows the Spirit?

There is no one righteous. In the New Testament, we "kill" people all the time. We are all murderers because our hidden inward motive of anger. It is not a matter of what you do, but what is within you.

Also, we cannot not use the Old Testament dispensation to justify that the HS allow killing. It is a different dispensation. God is a not a political-social reformer. He works with what the "society" man is in. And man, those time, lives, women and slaves don't worth much. Everything things is outward [including miracles] and even blessings of God are outward [more wives, children, livestock]. It is a different time.

Furthermore, all man is falls under the righteous judgement of God.

In other words, there is no justification or anything we can say about it. We are rubbish, dung, nothing. If God decided to instigate Singapore to kill us all Malaysian. He is STILL RIGHTEOUS. Because we all are sinners. We are NOTHING. It is JUSTIFIED to do whatever with us. That is how bad man's position is.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 29 2014, 01:54 PM

You are a person who desire to follow the Spirit. Yet you bring out a example of someone to follow. The principle of the law is that you rather follow someone.

Usually, when we meet a person does thing not according to the Spirit, we will fellowship with the Lord and His Word. And not use it a reason to justify that since someone can do it, why don't I? It is between him and the Lord.

Also, we could turn the other way around, why not follow those who are models of one who is saved from bribing. Why don't follow those example?

Why use this one instance?

It all come to what is the motive within.



This post has been edited by pehkay: Nov 29 2014, 02:22 PM

Guys guys pause the debate sikit I got a prayer request

You guys know unker deimos right? Deimos Tel'Arin
He's having his baby girl soon about 2-3 months more.

But she had yet to turn upside down. He's worried because if it's a breech birth the doctor have no experience with that. Definitely will need surgery.


So he ask me if we can pray that his baby girl and wife will have a safe delivery in the coming months.

deimos tel arin the condom guy?

Must be. If I remember right

Yep he's the condom guy, but he has stopped selling them for a long time now got wife and anak. Need to work for his dad to support his new family.

hmm, he did not mention anything in the facebook so i did not know about it.......

sure thing will keep him and wife in the prayer

Ah yeah he didn't post it on FB. I guess it's a rather private matter. I have him on Steam. Dropped a message, then I ask how his baby is doing and then tahu liao.

Thanks a lot guys for the prayers

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Nov 29 2014, 09:24 PM

This is subjective pehkay, but when i ask HS about this issue, the answer is this: everything is permissible. So will i follow bill willson ? depends. I will ask HS first. Again it's me lahh...

My truth is very simple... Ask HS.

My bill and payments keep coming, people died everyday, i am bound by laws and regulation, malaysian moslem cannot convert, indonesian family needs financial support, where is my picture in GOD's eye ?

I have been reading bible, complete bible more than 10 times in my life. Every cycle i learn something new. if i died today and GOD raise me like lazarus (i am not talking afterlife), i read bible sure i will learn something new. This one HS revealed to me. Then when will i know Christ perfectly if my learning never ends ?

What i try to say, i need to resolve a lot of problem in my life, and i want to know GOD is with me, or against me. That's why i read bible.

To get the story short, HS say: read bible not to feed your brain, don't assume too much, don't draw conclusion without asking HS, higher priority to sharpen my ears.

My brain is not big enuf. It is much simpler in my life if HS teaches me directly what i need to know, instead of me reading bible and try to understand Jesus using my brain. To be able for HS to teaches me directly, i have to spend time with HS alone, and have faith in JESUS that GOD is good.

My purpose is not to argue with Pehkay or UW about bribing, pornography as goliath, but to bring hope that you can ask HS anything, because you can speak english. .. Have faith if HS told you learn from Mr A... Learn from Mr B... follow path C.... follow step D... etc...

When HS told me things, there are 1 or 2 things i wrestle back like Jacob. I did argue bible written like this... how come HS told me that... How do i know that you are not wolf in sheep clothing ? Well... argue lah like Jacob... don't be chicken...

I don't know unker deimos but i can pray

Dear LORD, kindly give peace to him. Let him know your mercy that YOU are always in control. I would like to agree with many person here that breech birth it's not preferred at all. I would like to ask for head first formation.

Thank you for normal delivery or caesarian with head first formation ... In the name of JESUS we prayed, Hallelujah Amen !

If God decided to instigate Singapore to kill us all Malaysian. He is STILL RIGHTEOUS ---- i agree with this.

Q: I am assuming you are giving a example where the spy is a Christian and knows the Spirit?
A: I think it's best to say the spy is Christian, and wants to have a deeper relationship with Christ.

From your writings, i can conclude that whatever HS decided or replied. It is righteous. Of course the problem is what we assume we hear from HS right ? this will lead to many debate and at the end our bread is to do our father will.

-----

When James Bond is executing order to kill a person, James Bond pray: Oh GOD, have mercy on me. Today i gonna assassinate somebody. Please forgive my sin. I need to do my JOB.
Then "normally" James bond will hear two voice:
1. Thou shall not kill
2. It's OK. You are working for government.

When James bond ask HS back, are you telling me no 1 or no 2 ? Now this is very tricky questions right ?

99.99999% people simply tell that HS will only reply no 2, because spy is not a job for Christian. Christian should not kill.

My version:
HS looks at James Bond heart. The one beneath the surface. It's quite true like you say we "kill" everyday.
HS agreed James Bond has to kill if necessary, because HS justify his heart, not his actions. If James Bond got killed, James bond will be saved because of work of Christ in Calvary. Well... occupational hazard

so can de1929 kill like james bond ? my revelation only specific to me. So everybody please ask HS and get your own answer one-by-one.
My revelation ? de1929 please join military / police / covert operation, then when that time come, discuss with HS about more detail.

You might want to consider the Word too.

I think the question is not whether God is with you or against you. But rather, are we with God or not.

Also, IMHO is, that firstly I don't know your situations. That is a fact. Neither do you know mine. That is also a fact. We are all human and have human responsibilities. Nothing can excuse us from not taking care of it, much more the divine things.

This is a public forum in anonymity. So usually when we fellowship, we share Biblical principles [without getting personal] in truth and experience. So, you don't have to bring up the reason for what you did. In a sense, we are also familiar with Christians who are worse in their environments and can experience His salvation from these things.


Indeed, I am really not in arguing mode [not sure where you get that] but rather concerned with your ... er ... "flirting with disaster" in the spiritual things. It is almost tempting the Lord per se.

The principle to fellowship with the Spirit is good yet .... the feeling within needs to be cross-checked. Even the evil spirits can speak in us or just our self-feeling and desires. [Like you said ... I could be a wolf ]

1) The Word does correspond with the feeling within.

2) The sense of life [gives us the feeling of life and peace, or, in other words, it makes us feel strong, satisfied, lively, bright and comfortable. Whenever we feel strong, satisfied, lively, bright and comfortable within, we have inward proof that we are right before God and that we are living in the spirit. Life and peace are the positive feelings which the sense of life gives us within, thus proving that our condition in life is normal.]

Romans 8:14 says, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." The leading of the Spirit is for sonship; to make us SONS OF GOD.

We have a mistaken, natural concept regarding the leading of the Spirit. People invariably think that the leading of the Spirit comes suddenly from the third heaven or elsewhere. Some ask the Lord for a sign saying, “O Lord, give me a sign, an indicator, whether or not I should buy this thing. Lord, if there’s transportation available, it will be a sign that You want me to buy it, but if there’s no transportation, it means that You don’t want me to buy it. Lord, keep the stores open, for if they are closed it will indicate that You do not want me to buy anything.” This is an example of a mistaken concept regarding the Lord’s leading.

The leading of the Spirit does not derive from nor depend upon outward things. The leading of the Spirit is an issue of the inner life. I would say that it comes from the sense of life, from the consciousness of the divine life within us. Hence, the leading of the Spirit is a matter of life, a matter of the sense and consciousness of life. The mind set upon the spirit is life (v. 6). How can we know this life? Not by outward things, but by the inward sense and consciousness of life. There is an inward sense which comes from setting the mind upon the spirit. If our mind is set upon our spirit, we are immediately strengthened and satisfied inwardly. We also are watered and refreshed. By that sense and consciousness we can know the life within us, and by this sense of life we can know that we are walking rightly. In other words, we know that we are under the leading of the Spirit. Therefore, the leading of the Spirit in verse 14 does not depend on outward things; it absolutely depends upon the sense of life within our spirit.

3) Vice versa, the sense of death includes weakness, emptiness, depression, darkness and pain.

4) The environment sometimes do correspond with the leading within.

5) Fellowship with the believers who cares for you and their feeling in the spirit.

6) Experiences do show that the Lord don't really answer in a QUICK way but it is always according to HIS TIMING;

These are good principles to cross-check.


---------------------------------------------------

Anyway, that's that from me lar. Was just curious with some of the statements you made. Uncannily you do become an epitome of something I wrote before ...

Just do with what you want lar.

Cheer! <lurking mode>

Yeah, I understand what you mean by talk to HS. Sometimes I guess I just don't know how to respond to that kind of conversation and I'll be in a confused mode. Thanks for making it simple there.
BTW, Can u share what do you mean by overly complicated?



Is ignorance then something we should practice? Since sometimes it is hard to hear people telling tales about us in the office which was not true but it keeps spreading from one area to another. And there's no stop to it.

I know that time will tell the truth. But how does one deal with this kind of situation when one meant it for good but others take it to the other extreme and make it as though it was intended for bad.


Another word for that is manipulating the situation? or just compromising that one shouldn't tell the truth because some other person will get hurt in the process. that depends on situation. but in this context, whereby it is the company's issue. how can i address it and how can i as a Christian behave and act accordingly? i'm stuck.

Have you read my whole post ? do you think i consider the WORD or not ? tell me which part i don't consider the word.

Are we with GOD ? I am on UW thinking on concept of grace. Meaning, GOD is always with me.
Thanks for clarification on this issue.
Why then reading the bible ? the idea of WWJD (what would Jesus do) inspires me to ask my self how Jesus would response for given situation. In regard that HS is the spirit that bring him from death to live, i ask HS...

I told in earlier post that i read bible more than 10 times. The idea is i want to see WWJD in year 2014.

My idea was, if i were not compatible with WWJD, then Jesus will be against me (it does not mean i am not with Jesus, i hope you understand the depth of my message here). Against simply Jesus will let me do whatever, but HE will not simply be with me. Against means also HIS mighty name YHWH will not be with me, on any contextual things thinkable.

Then, as i posted earlier, HS told me to change mindset. It has to be HS teaches me how to resolve problems instead of me keep reading the bible to understand WWJD.

Thanks pehkay for advising me. Reap and sow. Some people consider my seeds as insult, some / many silent reader will swallow and prosperous, and they can have fruitful live christian. Sure somebody will not agree.

In regard tempting the LORD, i just ask HS why you (i mean Jesus) didn't scold peter for trying to walk on water, but rebuke devil, and oso rebuke peter when Peter disallowed Jesus to go to Jerusalem.

HS reply: Heart attitude. Tempting the LORD, the LORD will justify your heart attitude. if the LORD find it is pleased (e.g. demonstration of faith) the LORD will be happy. But if heart attitude like devil, like the one during Jesus temptation... got rebuke one.

"flirting with disaster" in spiritual things is the result of HS leading. Not my desire. Yes sometimes i have desire to "gamble", but it naturally short lived. pornography as goliath is long story lahhh... many tears wept cuz many times fall down and get up and fall and get up and... endless cycle ... but .. just fight... and one day you will be an overcomer... Like me. Under GOD grace i am an overcomer

When martin luther "protest" with catholic church system, where the cross check ? don't have. Sometimes we just have to depend on GOD alone.

but....

there is a guru in these days so no need to be all our issues resolve by ourselves. e.g. HS leads me to learn from A, follow B, it relieves some of my time to understand the whole details. e.g. I was a programmer. So these days when i ask people to do facebook programming, i don't need to learn facebook programming. I just "trust" in the vendor to deliver the system.

This is what HS teaches me these days. The "vendor" per say, not to insult, is HS... just trust in HS...

you cannot cross-checked faith, i am not talking faith salvation, but peter case e.g... how you justify peter walk in the water ? cross check with gravity law ? no lah... faith.

The experience of Jacob

Jacob's Fleeing from Laban

All the changes in Jacob's environment were indicators that he should go back home. Jacob did go, but not in a noble way. He stole away from Laban. But what would have happened if he had not fled from Laban in the way he did? Laban would have exercised his power to detain his daughters and their maids and all their children. He probably would have told Jacob, "Jacob, if you want to go, then go, but you must leave everyone and everything with me." Because Jacob feared this, he stole away.

Although Jacob's way of leaving was not the right way, God allowed it to happen. Because he was not yet mature, Jacob had a weak point. Why did Jacob not put his trust in God? Since God is all-powerful and all-capable, Jacob should have trusted Him to protect his wives and children. It is easy to talk about trusting God, but it is not easy to practice it. Trusting God is not a doctrinal matter. If you had been Jacob, would you have dared to go to Laban and say, "Uncle Laban, I am leaving"? It is not easy to do this, for it requires the maturity of life and a measure of faith. In order to have the necessary measure of faith, we need the growth in life. Jacob, however, did not have this. Many times we also have been placed in situations where we had no choice except to flee, to steal away. It would be easy to rebuke Jacob for not leaving Laban publicly in an honorable and noble way. But if we examine ourselves, we shall see that many times we have done things without letting our husbands or wives know about them.

In this chapter we are told that Jacob stole the heart of Laban (v. 20, Heb.). While Jacob stole Laban's heart inwardly, Rachel stole the household images outwardly (v. 19). Even among those God-fearing people there were still idols. These were not the temple idols but the household idols, the idols which they worshipped in their homes. Because they were considered so important, Rachel stole them and Laban searched for them. Do not think that because Jacob was a saint called by God that he had an upright family. Apparently some of us have a very proper family, but God knows that we still have some household images. If the Bible did not mention these idols, no one would have ever believed that Laban or Jacob had idols in his family. But even Jacob's weakness in stealing Laban's heart was permitted by God.

We all make mistakes, but God can never be mistaken. Certainly it was not noble of Jacob to run away, but even this was under God's permission. Do not regret your mistakes, for even your mistakes work for your transformation. None of us is absolutely honest, noble, faithful, or upright. Only the Lord Jesus is such a person. We all have our weak points, our natural weaknesses. Jacob fled from Laban because he was weak in faith and weak in the ability to sacrifice.

All our mistakes, even our wrongdoings, are under God's sovereignty, and He uses them to transform us. In order to transform us, God will use our mistakes. I can testify that if I had not made certain mistakes, I would not be as transformed as I am today. The greatest amount of transformation in my life has come about through my mistakes. Nothing troubles me more than my mistakes. Whenever I thought that I was all right, the Lord allowed me to make a mistake. Nothing helps us to be transformed like our mistakes.

This does not mean that I am saying that we should do evil that good may come. No, if you intentionally make mistakes, those mistakes will not help your transformation. They will depress and condemn you. But as we try our best to avoid mistakes, we may pray, "O Lord, keep me in Your presence and never allow me to be mistaken. Lord, I fear and tremble in Your presence." Although we may pray like this, after a period of time we may still make another mistake, and the Lord will sovereignly use it for our transformation.

Ah yoh ... don't make reckless statement like this lar. This is Martin's testimony:

For a long time I went astray [in the monastery] and didn’t know what I was about. To be sure, I knew something, but I didn’t know what it was until I came to the text in Romans 1 [:17], ‘He who through faith is righteous shall live.’ That text helped me. There I saw what righteousness Paul was talking about.82 Earlier in the text I read ‘righteousness.’ I related the abstract [‘righteousness’] with the concrete [‘the righteous One’] and became sure of my cause. I learned to distinguish between the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of the gospel. I lacked nothing before this except that I made no distinction between the law and the gospel. I regarded both as the same thing and held that there was no difference between Christ and Moses except the times in which they lived and their degrees of perfection. But when I discovered the proper distinction—namely, that the law is one thing and the gospel is another—I made myself free.” (Luther's Works, Volume 54, P442).

The shinning light in Rom. 1:17 sets him free.


Peter ... his faith was in the Lord's word mah ... Not the written word at that time ... it's the Lord Himself speaking to come over. The principle is the same.

He failed ... because he couldn't believe the Lord's word.

Oklar ... no more from me.

P.S. That was when the line of law versus grace was born

This post has been edited by pehkay: Dec 1 2014, 08:12 AM

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong,

Is this, how you perceive bribe according to scripture?
Giving bribe is okay but receiving bribe is a sin?

But what does the Bible say in
Ecclesiastes 7:7 (NIV) - Extortion turns a wise person into a fool, and a bribe corrupts the heart.
I believe this corrupting affects both the giver and the receiver.

Is it right to save one's life while corrupting another? That pastor may have saved the little's boy physical life but he also corrupted the officer's heart.

Does 2 wrongs makes a right justified?

Is our dependency on money or on God? I've also heard testimonies where a certain pastor prayed for God to change some officer heart to him let go because of passport issues.
Immediately then and there, that miracle happened.

Now I don't want to judge whether Bill Wilson did the right thing, that's between Him and God. But my point is, there's no such thing as HS allowing or leading a believer to sin.

Pray based on Romans 8:28 & Isaiah 54:17.

Grace is to lead you out self dependency and out of sin. God is always with you in that.

But to say Grace allows you to do whatever you want to and you don't desire change, that's never in my teaching.

I knew marthin luther history because i grew up in Presbyterian church.

forgive my reckless statement, i was focusing wrong on your writing about fellowship. What i mean, martin luther don't have another person to cross check. Martin luther did have access to a bible and of course Martin luther had Jesus as well.

sorry typo error.

--
Peter had luxury to hear the LORD himself speaking to come over
We have luxury to hear HS himself speaking to our live.