bribe corrupts the heart, so be carefull when we exercise our freedon with excuse of: everything is permissible.
same with James bond with license to kill, you reap what you sow. occupational hazard. with this kind of job, don't expect somebody will not shoot you with sniper riffle. but, it does not means GOD does not want to have good relationship with James Bond.

When i wrote giving bribe is okay, but receiving is sin... it's my personal preference to be honest... it's not right, but still if i want to receive / give bribing, i should check with HS.

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Is it right to save one's life while corrupting another?
Does 2 wrongs makes a right justified?

depends... what is my role and what HS told me.

If i am a policeman, and Mr A does speeding. What will i do ? after I, the policeman, stop Mr A, the policeman realize that Mr A wife is about to deliver the baby. Therefore Mr A does speeding to go to hospital ASAP.

by under police authorithy, i can focus on the law disregard the fact that Mr A's wife is about to deliver the baby.

If HS told me to fine him, i will fine him. Regardles Mr A pregnancy condition. I believe HS can preserve Mr A's wife pregnancy condition.
If HS told me to release him, i will release him, which display a humanity acts of kindness. Police supervisor may or maynot agree with me or i may have problem / question by supervisor.

---

back to pastor / officer heart, how much corruption act can corrupt pastor / officer ?

i don't know, but what i know, GOD's in control. Don't worry about things that is not in my "job scope"... GOD's in control it does not mean those heart are becoming more corrupted / less corrupted... It is simply say that GOD's in control. I do what i have to do.

If i am the pastor, and i have to care about officer heart... HS will not ask me obviously right ?
If i am the pastor, and i am focusing on saving that kids' live.... obviously HS will ask me to bribe the officer right ?

at the end, HS just simply find whose pastor wanna bribe the officers to save the kid. HE found one. Bill wilson.

Will u confused with 'checking with HS' vs your own emotion?

don't really understand ur question hehehe... but allow me to assume:

allegory: checking with HS with asking parents permission. I think it's clear between asking parents permission and our emotion.

or perhaps ngai concern about how to hear GOD's voice ?

I just want to add in a bit about bribery. The Bible is clear about bribery. Its is forbidden, just like tattoos.

But, what does God think about it? If its for a greater good, then its between that person and God.

If its for evil, then its not good. hehehe..

What ever it is, its between that person and God. Its not something we can judge, because of the morality issues.

When I asked my CG elder, (as usual), everything is WRONG. I asked but what IF you want to save a person's life, but due to bureaucracy and stuff, you had to resort to "bribery", I even gave scenarios for them to better understand my point of view.

They can even say why do I have such a vivid and wild imagination? WTF?!! Sorry guys.

They still thought its wrong because the person should just pray to HS for guidance. What? Seriously?

So I don't want to argue because I already got a bad reputation in their eye.

You need to gang up / have a community with people as open minded as you. It's not easy. Like looking for needle in the haystack.

eh i forgot. Why don't ask HS to lead you ? this should be simple right ? compared to bribery / james bond license to kill issues

What church ? don't bother lahh... with your "level" now, baptist, protestant, charismatics, presbyterian, does not matter... i think u can survive just only with 1 name... JESUS

Aww dude, I'm just a newbie. How can the HS even want me to lead? But then, with God "All things are Possible".

You like James Bond so much huh? I never watch his movies, so yeah, I only know "Bourne Supremacy". hehehe...

Plus, he's a womanizer. You know what the Bible says about that!

What level? Newbie here la. I only know the bits and pieces. I'm not a seasoned pro like you and UW.

Yeah, only Jesus mighty name can SAVE us all.

Huh, my family got shocked when I told them I attended church regularly. They thought I'm kidding. hehe..

Anyone has a listing of upcoming Christmas' concerts for the various churches in Klang Valley?

May I know where do you get this sentence from "But, what does God think about it? If its for a greater good, then its between that person and God."?

From my experience and what I perceived from the Bible, God only sees it as black or white. No gray areas. But He looks at the situation understanding your key motivation of why you did what you did.

From my point of view, that is wrong. BUT From another person's point of view, it could be right.

The thing about this is, the world is extremely complex and it's really hard to find the line that separates what is ethically right and ethically wrong especially in politics. At the end, it depends on the person's conviction of what it's right or wrong, and whatever you do, you own up to your decisions (whether you bribe or no bribe). At the end we answer to God, not people.

A pastor/leader can't give you all the answers and the best possible answer they can give is pray for HS because they are simply as ordinary and flawed as all of us are. But i think it's best if the leader/pastor follow up with you to help you just in case if anything goes wrong (assuming the bribery situation is something real and not an imagination), not to say "I was right!" if any problem arises though.

All the best man! Keep on asking, that's how we grow =D... If you feel there's any condemnation in my message, I do apologize beforehand.

And something extra to read!
http://www.discipleshipdefined.com/resources/gray-areas

This post has been edited by amosai: Dec 1 2014, 10:35 PM

Well, just from my own personal experience and from reading online.

I was reading a verse in Proverbs 17:23, The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice.

You see that's the thing, how on earth are we suppose to do things which falls in the "gray areas"?

If we follow the Bible strictly, its says bribery is wrong. But then? What if we want to save a life or something else? Ask the HS. Sure, we ask the HS. But what IF time is of the essence?

Two wrongs does not make a right. Right?

Yeah, a pastor is also a human but I'm getting the impression that some of the local Christians that I have encountered here are quite legalistic. I'm not saying ALL the Christians here. Don't get me wrong.

I'm used to being condemned..so its not a big deal. Jesus gave me, and others a second chance, so lets make it right.

The reason why I asked it's because from what I recall, God did not mention anything about us doing something for the greater good. Correct me if I am wrong.

I am still young though, 21 as of now. So I have yet to be exposed to the working environment (I am quite pampered since I don't have to work at such an age =X), but people usually change when they start working, office environment is stressful and require you to make those simple unethical decisions (I can't imagine a workplace you don't have to lie a little) if you want to keep your job or for a promotion.

Truth is, you're going to suffer for making black or white choices. Are you willing to suffer for it? I am not judging those who are making gray areas decisions, I make them from time to time too.

My question to you is as simple as this, are you willing to live with whatever happens next?

Do not bribe, people die= feel guilty
Do bribe, people survive= feel guilty

I think the best looking forward question to ask is what are you going to do to "fix" your mistakes (whichever it is). If you do bribe, ask for forgiveness from God because it's clearly stated in Bible as sin. If you do not bribe, help the victim's family? They may hate you for it but you can always try to lighten their sorrow.

Next question to ask is what should I learn from this experience/incident? (What is God telling me? What does He want me to learn? What is He preparing me for?)

This is just my point of view. At the end, there should be no condemnation(feel guilty like you want to kill yourself), just conviction(to make things/situation better or to improve).

Word of advice, you shouldn't feel normal to being condemned. It's unhealthy, when people condemn you, speak up (as nice as you can though xD). The end result should be a peaceful one.

My stand is no bribery. God said no bribery means no bribery. His commandments are absolute. But I accept that fact and possibility that actual circumstances could change my decision and sin. So that's where the area of forgiveness and grace comes into place (although there's another issue of whether are we taking advantage of it).

Hope this helps, read the link I posted too. Others, please feel free to chip in on this dilemma and shed more light into dilemmas and gray issues.

This post has been edited by amosai: Dec 1 2014, 11:15 PM

Oh, then of course we follow what the Bible tells us so.

Uh, I'm just a bit older than you. hehe.. Still young.

I make unethical decisions on my workplace (I work from home, duh...) most of the time. Now, I try to not do it all the time. hehehe..No its not bribery..

Whatever that person does, they will still have to confront God at the end of time, and confess their sins, yes?

I don't have enough experience in the context of bribery..so maybe someone else should answer? hehe...

IF I do bribe, of course I feel guilty and confess to God about it. I just ask God for guidance so that I try not to do it all the time.

Oh no, I didn't mean that I feel "being condemn" is normal. Far from it. I mean I know how it feels. I have experienced it before.

Yeah, no bribery for me too. Like I said, I'm not experience enough in this "field".

Hello to all my brothers and sisters in Christ, ever since i was transferred to Shah Alam a month ago i did not went to church for that duration. Anyone know any church in or nearby Shah Alam?

there is few church in Shah Alam, 1 of them is Methodist church not sure the location, if you willing to travel further to subang or sunway plenty of church there mostly charismatic churches

nice post amosai...

i prefer to live in a world without bribery fyi... but...

thank you

The experience of Jacob

Laban's Pursuing after Jacob

Laban pursued Jacob and overtook him (vv. 22-55). Laban had the power to hurt Jacob, but God warned him in a dream not to do anything to him (v. 24). Although Laban could not do anything, he did what all human beings do - he complained. He expressed his anger through complaining about Jacob's fleeing (vv. 26-29). Complaining is the best way to ventilate your anger. Next, Laban accused Jacob of stealing his images (vv. 30-35), and then, after the images were not found, Jacob rebuked Laban for his mistreatment (vv. 36-42). After this, Laban was subdued and, being subtle, he changed his attitude and made a covenant of peace with Jacob. This is a good example of human diplomacy.

This chapter reveals that no man is trustworthy. In chapter twenty-seven, Jacob's mother, Rebekah, thought that Laban would be a protection and help to her beloved son, Jacob. Thus, she sent Jacob away to her brother. But consider what Laban did to Jacob. No human being, even our closest relative, is trustworthy. Never put your trust in any human being. If we realize that we are God's called ones and that we are now undergoing His process of transformation, we must realize that everything is a matter of God's hand. It is not a matter of anyone's being trustworthy.

While we should not trust any human being, we should thank the Lord that everyone in our environment is under God's sovereign hand for our good. You may think that you have a faithful and trustworthy uncle. But such an uncle will not be very helpful for your transformation. As we read this chapter again and again, we can see that we should neither put our trust in anyone nor blame anyone. Whether our uncle is honest or not, we must still say, "Praise the Lord. God is sovereign. I am not in my uncle's hand, but in God's sovereign hand. Even my uncle who is not trustworthy is in God's hand for the sake of my transformation." We all need to see this and to know that nothing in our environment is trustworthy. Do not trust anything, any person, or any matter. Everything and everyone in our environment is an instrument sovereignly used by God for our transformation. If, for the sake of your transformation, you need an honest person, God will give you one. But mostly we need a Laban and cousins like Laban's sons. We should not complain, but thank God for everyone, saying, "Lord, I thank You for all my cousins. And I thank You for my uncle and even for my weaknesses." Praise the Lord that even our weaknesses are a means employed by God for our transformation.

In the scene portrayed in this chapter, the crucial person is the invisible God with His invisible hand. This chapter is not merely a story of human life; it is the revelation of the transforming God with His transforming hand. We all must see the God revealed in this chapter. The crucial character is neither Laban nor Jacob, but the hidden God who sovereignly prepares our environment for our transformation. In this chapter, God is hidden, yet He is on the alert, knowing the exact time to intervene and to speak to Jacob or to Laban. He does whatever He intends to do. Thus, the crucial person here is the sovereign, transforming God. If we see this picture, we shall rest in Him, believing that whatever we are and wherever we are, everything is all right because everything is under the sovereign hand of the transforming God.

Hi all, it's been sometimes I never comment anything here. Today I come to ask about below abit.

Stress & self control.
Its all about myself, I will try to shorten the questionissue.

Everytime when I had some stress on my working issue, I feel so stress because I feel unsatisfied with someone at work and I can't do anything to make it better but only option is endure else quit the job once and for all.

Lucky me, I still have third option which is pray, ask and have faith. Every time I pray after stressed or before, holy spirit always remind me not to worry, endure and I'm not alone.

Worst part happened, I not able to control myself calmly when the stressed hit on me. Sometimes I might slap my dog, little chicks when they don't behave, ok on this part truly not their problems because they are animals and problems belongs to me. I might raise my voice with other and the way I talked was harsh.

Today happened again, I started to feel some fear feelings inside me. Just because I had some new instructions from company and some worker did not attend the work, here come my stress again.

Reason sharing this, wants to let anyone that having same problems like me. Please do not hesitate to ask for help from God, friends or family before u done anything bad and hard to come back when decision made at the wrong timing. I CAN CONFIRM, doing the same things like me are wrong and making decisions at stress time are NOT the good time and always wil fall into something u do not wants it.

Any advice so I can handle it better?

This post has been edited by skydrake: Dec 2 2014, 10:02 AM

It appears that you have made your choice. No, you're not stuck, just need more people to talk to you about this, or more importantly, to God about this.

The choice I've made was that I started using lies as paintings, as an artist would do in order to tell the truth. While there are also many truths that can be told, the LIE people tell themselves is that they cannot take it.

There are many people here would like to help you, anna, but remember to try to seek wisdom as a whole.

To sum it up, I am not telling you to go tell lies.

I'm telling you if you cannot tell a lie, you will eventually stop. This is the main reason why I've stopped being a salesperson, and went on with other jobs instead. However, by having the experience on how to lie to people, I've discovered the truth about people as well.

And henceforth, I am beginning to accept LIES as a part of my reality and life, and I am learning how to be able to tell from good to bad, from lies to the truth. This does not means I like to lie, but the truth is that many expect you to lie. If the truth is that one desires lies, than it may no longer be the truth if you were to reveal the truth to these people. They snap. The lies...have become their truth of life. This may means that you may not be allowed to completely honest to people you aren't close with, but seek wisdom among all of these. And yes, talk to God.

But hey, I stopped being a salesperson because of the very same question I had.

"Your father said artists use lies to tell the truth. But because you believed in it, you find something true about yourself."

Even right now I am not being completely honest with you, anna. I cannot, because you must first understand the "lies" are no necessarily "false".

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Dec 2 2014, 10:30 AM

I don't think the Holy Spirit will ever lead a believer to do something that is of sin, even though the intention is to save another person's life.

If you believe God is in control, that all things are possible for Him, there are always other ways to do things without resorting to what is sinful.
(Remember the song, God will make a way, when there seem to be no way?)

God could have moved that officer (doesn't matter how stubborn, remember Pharaoh vs Moses?) without the need for that Pastor Bill to resort to bribe, Am I not right?
Unless you're telling me, God cannot move him and money is the only solution, then by that logic, God is not in control. Try and think about it.

I don't find any scriptural evidence that tells us, the HS will guide us to do something that is sinful. Not one.

Our Christian fundamental must be established in the core of the word of God, the Bible.
If God contradicts himself, He is no longer truth. It will be meaningless to say Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

If you quote that to unbelievers and they see you doing something sinful and you tell them because of grace, you can do anything (everything is permissible), even saying the HS advise you so,
it will be quite easy for them to say you're a hypocrite and so is God.

Where then is your justification? Because you must remember, all things is permissible for a non believers too. What difference is there between you as a believer and a non believers?

Just a tip, Do you know when the Bible says: Everything is permissible, it basically means, as a Christian you still have freewill to act and to think. You can still kill a person as a Christian, but do you think that is right? If you say Bribery is no longer wrong, then by the same logic, I can also say lying, murdering is not wrong either. Our Christian fundamental collapse.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 2 2014, 11:10 AM

That's just an excuse to avoid answering you. But you can be graceful, not everyone have the answers to every question no matter how old they are.
That's why for leaders it's quite imperative to be prepared in season and out of season.



Come to Calvary Dec 25 9am, we have Christmas musical.

Life and death is in the hands of Almighty God.

I believe, God has made it quite clear, children and believers, they belong to God and thus they also inherit God's Kingdom.
If it's time to go, it's time to go. Though painful, but Heaven is still much better place than this fallen world.

And even God has exhorted to us many times, we don't belong this world any longer, we are to be foreigners if not alien to it's corrupted way of life/culture.
Many times, even as Christian, we easily forget this truth.

Being Human, we all have the tendency to panic. But as child of God, we all have access to the power and grace of God for the impossible.

What is my point? We don't have to worry about this world, the future or situations. We have God. When the time of our need comes, whatever happens, God is not far away.
When we have God, all things are possible. Broken bones, bodily injury can heal, so will broken heart. Death is just a doorstep away to heaven. Every close doors, God will open if it's the right one. That is the meaning that God is in control.

Think about this verse in James 1:13-14 (NIV)

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.