back to 6 faith of islam.. one of them is believe in angels (jibriel, and others)

suffering counts.. because Allah's characteristic is maha adil

i think the most simple question you have to ask yourself is
does this universe exist on its own?

if the answer is no , then they must exist a creator.
if your answer is yes then from my point of view it also seems illogical as someone who believe in logic could believe that something so intricate , delicate like the universe and all of its glory can exist on its own.

adakah kebanyakan manusia(termasuk Muslims) akan masuk neraka dulu ?

Scientific discoveries has indeed change people's view on certain teachings on certain religions. But not on the core belief on the major religions. Time will tell? Perhaps. Who knows? You definitely don't.

You talked about, and praised one being "open", or "listen", and not "concrete on their belief". Are you so yourself? Seems like you're already concrete on your anti-theism, already have your own definition on Islam. Believing you know Islam more than the muslims in front of you.

They surely cannot proof the non-existence of God, but again, these anti-theists derailing, they keep saying "the burden of proof lies of theists", because they don't realize their anti-theism is also a belief system, an ideology, in some way a religion.


You are punished when the cards are adequately laid on the table and you refuse. Yeah, you can ask Him that. Go ahead.

"Something you don't know". "Know". See how that word different from "believe" and "faith"? I already said this, but....


See what I said? You're the one defining if a muslim is a good muslim or not??

You first say he's not a "true muslim believer", then you say he's a "good muslim". Exactly what Maher said. Budak baru nak belajar atheism, baru tengok show Bill Maher lah ni..haha

Right. The questions that Darkcity212, asked are quite shallow, and have been in talks in many many debates and discussions. That's why I said he's a new comer in this religious debate.

When studying about such issue, we shouldn't be biased on only listen to one side of opinion. Let's listen to the nuance, and use our god given intellect (because taqleed is meaningless). This is very important: intellect.

I think this issue is the same with all other celebrations. A person can believe whatever he/she wants, just that don't enforce your belief on other people. And this has been talked about in this thread during Christmas. You can the previous pages.

We wouldn't know, would we? What is your thought?

come on...

i refer as a true muslim, or good muslim, as per what the person believes in and i respect that. good muslims, as what i define is a religious individual with a rational thinking. bad muslims, are an example of isis and osama. u may have been offended when i say good and bad muslims, but one with a muslim religion must be all good?

athiest? anthiest? what does that even mean? im not from any particular group or belives so i do not know about this certain party u are referring to. i only believe what i see or one defines is right. im open to listen.

what about the muslims of brunei? the sultan implementing full syariah laws on his country.christmas and cny are banned.only celebration behind closed doors and will be punished if seen on the eyes of a muslim.

his enforcement, is acknowledged and approved based on the core of islam. which i respect that as it is a real muslims teachings.

in your opinion, everyone has the rights and freedom to believe or celebrate what he or she wants. so what is the difference and which muslim interpretation is correct? modern or traditional? how many types of interpretation there are in muslim?

"dimana kebenaran itu wujudnya neraka, maka disitulah akan mereka berada "

i acknowledge there is a creator, but did not acknowledge a creator could be from a certain religious beliefs.
if there is only one creator which what human defines based on his own religion, why are there many beliefs before the evolution of mankind? different race = different gods? it doesn't makes sense.christians believe theres only one creator so as the muslims,chinese,indians,etc.are there multiple gods of different races or there must only be one and the rest are fake? so which one of any religious belief has only one creator?

"the most logical explanation to this is aliens. they must have been deported from billions of miles away to earth in one time and mankind misinterpret them as god. "
scientists discovered not too long ago, that there are over a hundred billion galaxies and high possibility of human life.galaxies that have existed billions of years ago before planet earth.isnt it logic to believe the technology they have having existed billions of years before earth? centuries ago, people do not have the technology or telescope to view the galaxy.now that we know, the only logic answer will be known sooner or later.

Im not used to preaching. But the basic understanding is:

Why do life exist? How does it exist? Science somehow explains through evolution, and it all comes to the big bang. As astounding and mind boggling how science opens our eyes, it still doesnt explain as to why the big bang happened, and how did the black atom (im not sure what it is particularly, google it) actually was there in the first place. The first matter, to even matter?

Im not sure about the true Torah, Zabur or Bible have about this big bang theory, but if they do, its still the same as the Quran. As what the westerners had labelled as 'Abrahamic Religions', all of it has one thing in common, worshipping Allah. And these understandings goes back to where it started, Adam. Sure some would argue that Adam is not the the first human, we actually come from apes, as what Darwin theory had stated. But still, Darwin's theory is still a theory. But then again, to disbelievers, faith is also a theory. How do we prove faith? Its not tangible. As in Islam explains it, its called Iman. Beriman dengan perkara ghaib. Having faith in something we do not see. To make it simple, lets see it from a different perspective. In some of ulama's opinions, faith in such circumstance best come from the Quran and Hadith. Based on something tangible, that is the holy scripture, Quran and Hadith, something that we can read. Lets put aside the 'credibility' of these scriptures for a while. So these so called 'scriptures', have many future 'warnings' and 'signs' about the end of times.

Ill list some that I know, perhaps others can contribute too.

1) The fall of Baitulmaqdis - Check.
2) Adultery - Everywhere now. Check.
3) The boom of the music industry and women singers. Check.
4) Overindulgence of muslims building mosques. -check
5) Widespread of negativity - dishonesty, torn relationships, etc -check
6) Increasing no of people seeking knowledge only for rank and status -check
7) Pious people passing away - check
8) The most despicable of those despicable gaining status (popularity or respect) - check
9) 'Naked' full clothing women. This is concerning the aurat. -check
10) The world is enveloped by a fog. Air pollution perhaps? -check
11) The increasing size of the crescent moon. -check
12) Untruthful news. Explains current media. -check
13) Many false witnesses and true witnesses keeping silent. -check
14) Arabic countries(desert) having rivers and grass(plants). -check
15) Countless children born out of wedlock. -check
16) Increasing amount of earthquakes -check
17) The men being faithful to their wives but irresponsible towards their mothers. -check
18) Greetings are only given to people that we know -check
19) People interpreting life is to only have fun. Contradicts with Islam as life on earth is just a testing ground, the real 'life' is in the afterlife. -check
20) The jews claiming their 'promised land' - check
21) The increasing number of people converting to Islam. -check!


And many more signs to be, but havent happened yet. Well, we would just wait and see. From the number of warnings as stated in the Quran and Hadith, all of them actually happened, in time though, whether we realize it or not. And for me, I just take it as a more solid reason to have faith in Allah. I would think that hey, theres tonnes of warnings such as this, and most of it actually happened, if im a skeptic, how skeptic can i be with such statements being proven in time again and again? Also not forgetting, these tangible statements coming from thousands of years ago. So if one would say, the Quran and the holy books were just written by intellectual people, or people with vision. Surely of all the 'intellectual' people combined, at that particular timeline having a discussion to predict the future, not everything they discuss would actually come out true! So if just from these 'signs' and 'warnings' from the Quran & Hadith have actually proven to have happened, surely the rest stated in the scriptures would be true?

Sure some would say, thats not enough for me to believe in Allah! Thats not fair, so id just have to believe based on that? If life is all about worshipping Allah, why doesnt He make all the disbelievers do so? If Islam is the way, why didnt Allah make everyone a muslim? Well I dont think im fit to answer all those types of questions, but as what I had stated, no matter how skeptic can one be, you're lying to yourself if all of those 'signs' or 'warnings' are not true, no matter what the explanation is. So just from understanding by spectating the events that have happened throughout time, and if one would shortlist these events in the Quran and it does coincide, automatically we would want to find out more. That feeling of finding out more means, that whatever those signs and warnings we have just found out to be true, then that is faith already! If Allah says it will happen, it happens. And they happened! Or in arabic in the Quran, Kun Fayakun!

This post has been edited by aimank_88: Feb 14 2015, 06:33 AM

Thats not what I said. You equated "not a true muslim" as a "good muslim". That's also what Maher did.
But now you say good muslim is one with rational thinking. If you read my previous posts before you came, you would know this is what I've been talking about.
Don't worry, I'm not offended by your labelings of good/bad muslims. But it is offensive when you belittle the rational muslims and dismiss the large majority of muslims out there. You didn't say it directly, but I can see it by your style of words. We're not dumb people here, no point kidding..

Okay, you say you're not, then you're not. I take your word for it. But you do share some elements of anti-theism.
Anti-theism differs from atheism in (in a way of many) that atheist don't believe, and so be it. They don't put their own thoughts and actions to the teachings of religions such as having a concrete idea of the teachings of a religion and refuse to listen to the followers of that religion themselves.

If you have your own belief, and that's it, then so be it. But if you come an attack/belittle other people's beliefs/theism, thats how you become anti-theist.



If you really know muslims in LYN at all, you'll see that many of us see what Brunei is doing is oppressive. But you choose to believe that is "real Islam". Therefore you may see Islam = oppressive. I dont know why you choose to believe that is real Islam when many muslims ourselves reject that. It's like what Isaid many time, anti-theists want Islam (or religions) to be bad, they want us to be the villain. Hey, it's called anti-theist for a reason.

Before you make your judgment, learn about the nuances in Islam. That is if you really are keen on listening , open, and not have a concrete opinion on religions. Islam has diverse teachings. We don't have a vatican to decide which is wrong or right. It's a personal choice. I believe Islam don't oppress other religions, as I think thats wrong.



Many beliefs before the evolution of mankind? What are you talking about?

You already said christianity & islam believe in one single creator. Get it? One. Single. Creator. ONE. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? We said ONE, we don't say I have one and you have one, because that's two. Did I just drag myslef to this level? Explaining to a seemingly-anti-theist that 1+1=2 ?

Before you make you judgment, why don't you ask theists? Why just assume our thoughts based on your own projection of our thoughts? I know your post there are full of question marks, but those are rhetoric quetions from you; you already have your idea, you're not really asking. This is why I see many anti-theists are arrogant.



Okay, the most logical to you is aliens. Okay. It's good that you take this stand. You have your belief.

And while you take the chance that its aliens, some take chance that its divinity. Then so be it.

Before I start, the study of origin of life is not "evolution", that the diversity of lifes. Study of origin of life is "abiogenesis". Just for

Okay. I don't dismiss the scientific theories. Such as, I dont say Darwin's as "ah, that is just a theory". But to me, all of these theories and explanations is not definitive in disproving Islam. I haven't put much study into evolution, so I wont reject it now. But this is whole another topic to discuss.

The big bang itself is the start of the "story" scientifically. There's nothing before that. Unexplainable. So that itself is already questionable. Now new theory published that big bang is not the start (duh) that the unverse has always exist.

Islam Christianity and Judaism being Abrahamaic Religions is not a western ideology or labeling. It has already been so since that historical times itself in Judea, Arabia, and even in the time of Muhammad. But I understand why many muslims today strongly oppose the other two and don't want to be associated with them.

Basically the questions all come down to "why make hardship and negativity exist?" Simple. Because life is a test.

bro.. no offence. but i think u read too much of quran. instead of science.to u islam is the first and only religion that existed. so our ancestors who are apeman already worship allah i suppose.egyptians..oh yeah, they are also islam.
so science that has proved the evolution of mankind today.. is all merely a story to convince muslims not to believe there is allah.no wonder muslims dont want to associate with them and refuse to believe there are billions of galaxy.lel
ok i get ur personal understanding now

No you don't. What you said is 100% NOT my understanding. 100% I have said NOTHING like that at all. And you put those 100% different understanding in my mouth. Haha..typical anti-theist. I dare you to relate any of what you said to what I have ever said. Come on, relate any one. Just one.

How the big bang happened ?

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" 21:30

Long before the Origin of the Species, Ibnu Khaldun wrote in the Muqaddimah :

This world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others, and transformations of some existent things into others, in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless.

One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group.

The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.

Might be his study was related to Al-Anbiya ?

Have not those who disbelieve seen (known) that the heavens and the Earth were of one connected entity, then We separated them (from each other), and We made every living thing out of water? Will they not then believe? (21: 30).

Qur'an is the book of signs, not science. But from Qur'an we can advance all form of knowledge, including science.

This post has been edited by aliesterfiend: Feb 14 2015, 08:00 PM

Thanks. Tapi selalu aku tunggu sampai full satu rakaat (kecuali tahayaat).

Hmm?