I dont know about you guys la bro, but me, I'm more of a rationalist muslim. What is budaya, cara, etc? Right? It's too generic. That's why I follow rationale. Some people say kenot celebrate christmas. I disagree because I dont celebrate it in a religious value, but more like pop culture. Santa, not Jesus nor St Nicholas. It's not Jesus's birthday anyway. Speaking of birthday, don't we celebrate Maulid Nabi also? Muhammad's supposed birthday? Islam teaches us to do that? Isn't that following yahudi nasrani? And again, it's not his real birthday, too.

It came to the point that I feel funny having to say over and over again that Islam =/= terrorism. We are feeding into people's ignorance. But again, we have to, otherwise, worse.

It's a common knowledge to us, that Islam teaches peace. But I wish people stop saying "Islam is a religion of peace". Because while the Holy Quran talk about peace, it also contains aggression. It contains both. So in a way, it's actually "Islam is a religion of peace, and aggression". Just like ALL other major religions, be it Christianity, or even Buddhism. (it's funny people still think buddhism is the one peaceful religion). It all depends how you interpret and understand the ayat. Those terrorist can do the exact same thing; quoting the ayat or hadith to justify their terrorism. They are not liars, they just interpret the ayat & hadith is a distorted, destructive, and surely lost reading.

So it all goes down to how you interpret the ayat, and your rationale. When you read the ayat, you also need to understand the context of the ayat.

What does it say? at office now, no speaker.. (boss not in yet, ngulor kejap laa )

Different community. I am sure this thread will be bombarded with Islam hater if move to RWI. Besides,..

yes, ..it's more to sharing our diverse opinion on and in Islam.

What was it that you talked about? Mind PM me?

I believe you are Muslim, yes? Then you should know since young, we are told the stories of the old times, sirah nabi, para sahabah, etc etc. We were told the "sacred story" not the "historical story". Meaning the stories were romanticized, dibunga2kan, even their dialogs were very theatrical. People today still romanticize those old times, that's why. They believe that's what we should be.

It's true what you say: Even us here, look around. How many still regard the Khulafa Al-rasyidin as holy men, examplary muslim? They don't even know those men fight each other, use force and aggression and tricks to gain political power, and they're not even the religious leader of their people!

If we know the historical story, we would not romanticize the ancient times. We will still have high respect for them, yes. But we will think logical too, with modern mind.

How many Malaysian Muslims still hate Jews even innocent child jews, for no apparent reason, apart from what their ulama told them? Countless. They're afraid to question, because they think questioning those ulama means questioning Islam. They're blinded by their Islam.

That's why it's essential to use our rationale. We should understand the context of the text, not just follow literally. How can anyone in their right mind condone killing SIMPLY because someone choose to leave Islam?

I'm still learning, because I don't agree we should kill that easy.

Another belief is that many of these rulings were revealed during the ancient time, war time, war between religions. So "apostates" here means enemy in war. It was actual wars between religions that time, so turning against Islam means you are joining the enemy's side of the trench, literally. That's when reaction such as killing is permissible. This make more sense to me...

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Jan 15 2015, 04:26 PM

I'm not saying Quran is only applicable in one era. What I'm trying to say is, when we read the text, we should also know the context of the text, not follow it simply literally.

I agree with you, we shoud selarikan, which is what we reformist muslim is trying to call for, reinterpetation of the text. It's about INTERPRETATION. Quran is always applicable, in all era, but in which interpretation?

But bear in mind, we call for this, but doesn't mean it's not happening yet, reformation within Islam has been going on since forever.

Kenapa tidak? Kita bukan mahu "ubah Islam", tapi memperbaharui pemahaman, intrepretasi quran dan hadis. Quran dan Hadith itu masih sama. Dan ini bukan benda baru, memang pemahaman telah dan sedang diperbaharu. Islam yang dipraktis sekarang tidak sama exactly dengan Islam beratus2 tahun dahulu, meaning praktisan Islam sudah sememangnya "berubah".

Mungkin ada yang terkejut dengar ini, Islam berubah. Perkataan "berubah" itu mengejutkan, dan akan ada yang tidak setuju. Bukan saya kata Islam itu berubah, cuma pemahaman itu diperbaharui dengan timbulnya minda moden, negara itu negara ini, fatwa itu fatwa ini, mazhab itu mazhab ini, pembaharuan perlahan dalam beratus2 tahun.

To me, you sound like those who call for the caliphate system to be back in this modern times. Am I correct?
If so, I disagree with that.

Like I said, instead of perubahan, it more of a pembaharuan, renewal. We are not "changing" Islam.

If you want renewals, look at the fatwas being issued everyday. The differing ideas of modern muslims vs old muslims. Introduction of "new" system such as democracy, civil law.

If you're looking for specific, for a small black-white change, means you don't understand the overall concept of reformation. I suggest you go read up about it.

Oh come on, now.. google stuff, people! Let's read more, I'm still learning too.

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Jan 12 2015, 12:12 PM

So now this is getting personal?

The very core of reformation is related to individualism. Nowadays, individualism has increased. That's an example.

Reinterpretation of the text is in light of modern knowledge. Now we understand equality more, we incorporate modern system and ideology, etc. That's an example.

Again, this is a gradual process in a broad scale. You are looking for specific example, meaning you don't get it yet.

It should not be personal, or targeting individual.

I myself use bad words too sometimes

Yes I can. But I wont. It's tiring to make this personal. Read more about it yourself. And yeah, I'm no sarjana besar, you should learn from better people.

Hey, Muslim cannot be pornstar!! Later got death threat, they perform jihad on you! Haha.. jk jk

Devil's advocate: "itu tetapan ke atas bani israil!" Kita anak Ismail, anak Isaac, or even Judah, kita saam geng la.. ahli buku.

That's the point, kenapa kita yang KONONnya a religion of peace, di ajar membenci Yahudi, Kristian, dan agama lain? Kenapa memanggil mereka musuh Islam? lepas tu boleh debik dada pulak cakap religion of peace.

^ whatever makes you happy, man.. as long as wont harm other people.

Exactly. It's incomprehensible to hate people for irrational reasons..

I agree with you lucifer_666. (whoah, that's a weird sentence to say )

I mean, tak malu ka (Traditional) Islamic organisations dok kecoh K-Pop lah, baju ketat lah, Taylor Swift lah, DNA babi lah, etc etc. Tengok organisasi lain Buddhist, Inter-faith, or just non-religious like soup kitchen, etc, pergi kutip derma, pergi tolong homeless, pergi buat free class utk under priviledge kids, etc.

Ada menteri tu kata duit selawat baik salur tolong mangsa banjir, habis dia kena bash dek traditionalist muslims. That itself says a LOT.

woah.. sudah ada opponent I wonder berapa percent traditionalist muslims dalam /k nih..

You are entitled to your opinion. Up to you (as long as you dont hurt/oppress others). If you lock your mind, only read teachings that you are used too, then how can you call that belief? How can you call that iman?

And if you really believe in this world today there is only one Islam, which is what you practice right now, ...oh my..

Thanks atas peringatan. I appreciate your positiveness walaupun kita tidak sependapat.

Tanya ustaz2, memang bagus, tapi dekat Malaysia semua pendapat yang serupa, hampir semua pun dalam Shafie. Sebab tu, aku suka baca2 ajaran2 lain jugak, selain Malaysia.

Baguslah kau banyak tanya. Sangat bagus. Itu yang patut orang Malaysia buat sekarang. Tanya. Tapi mereka takut tanya, sebab mereka percaya kalau tanya tu maksudnya menolak Islam. Jadi ramai buat taqleed saja. Just follow thier ustaz without thinking.

Betuuuuuuuuul. Itu sememangnya pasti. Aku 100% setuju, captain obvious!

Ini lah masalah nya. Orang salah faham apa yang cuba disampaikan. Cepat sangat bertanggapan orang lain salah. Islam yang di bawa oleh Nabi Muhammad sememangnya satu.

Yang aku cakap ialah, ajaran Islam pada hari ini, banyak. Bukan hari ini saja, even sejak zaman khulafa yang pertama pun, sudah ada berlainan pendapat. Seribu tahun kmudian makin banyak lah jenis2 nya. Bukan aku cakap semua betul atau semua salah.

Harap ini dapat jelaskan keadaan.



This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Jan 15 2015, 04:24 PM

Deadlocks, what you are asking is dangerous and baiting hate. Seems like you are asking us may / how do we misinterpret other religions so that they will get "hated" just like how the "west hating Islam".

If I define your question correctly, I suggest people here to NOT answer this question. We should not fight fire with fire, hate with hate.

It may be hypothetical, Deadlocks, but it still baiting hate. So please don't make other people conceive this bad ideas. If you really have to have it, you have to conceive it by yourself. But I'm not sure if you should, don't fill your mind with hate.

Second of all, you are saying, after the media misinterpret a religion, the followers will "also conceive extremism". This is not how it works.

Third of all, if I define your question wrongly (I'm sure I didn't) please correct me and disregard what I said above.

It's the same thing. Not about the individual, its about the "how" that you are asking. I don't think people here should conceive the how and tell you. You do it yourself. Or better yet, don't at all.

I don't mean to accuse you, but you sound really fishy, man.. talking about "how other religions can also be equally misrepresented by the media". This is NOT the question you should be asking in order to understand this whole picture.

"By understanding how other religions can also be equally misrepresented by the media, perhaps we will be able to eradicate or lessen the effects of Islamophobia in the world."
I told you: We should NOT fight hate with hate. Your idea is how does one put hate on one (other religions) to lessen hate on another (Islam)? You don't do this.

And as I said before: One "conceive extremism" NOT after "misrepresentation from the media". Your question is based on your misunderstanding, that's why no one can answer it.
It seems like you don't quite understand what is extremism. You seem to see "extremism" to mean "prejudice" or "discrimination".

HOW is not the question you should ask. But you did, that's why I said you sound fishy and dangerous.

You should ask WHY. Why does the media portray Islam in a bad way.
The answer is IGNORANCE.
The answer is FEAR.
The answer is ARROGANCE.

I just disagree with the need to ask the HOW. To solve this problem, we should ask the WHY. I didn't say don't question at all, but ask the right question; the why.

That's my opinion.

Naah, it's okay. All good.
Kalau ada rule "kena ikut mazhab setempat" tu memang aku tidak setuju lah. Kepercayaan kita, fikiran masing2.

Tapi, dari segi akhlak, basically tiada beza yang signifikan pun, sama ja 4 mazhab utama sunni, boleh bersetuju dan bersatu. Cuma dari segi usulul fiqh, situ yang biasa ada berlainan pendapat.
Yang penting jangan sampai kita berpecah atas pendapat yang berbeza, tapi bersatu atas pendapat yang sama.