Both are accountable. God give us brain to think, right? Not just follow what an ustaz/ulama say blindly. Otherwise God should just make us a robot.

I mentioned Aqli & Naqli before.
Both are equally important. Not one over the other. But you have to have aqli first to understand and follow naqli. Not because aqli is more important, but you have to have intelligence(aqli) to interpret and understand the ayat(naqli).

Indeed. One cannot cringe harder when seeing the behaviour of those sand monkeys middle eastern extremists and puritanists. It's ironic that the same puritanist are the one with inclination of sexual thoughts.

Like in Malaysia. All those religious bodies. Other crimes that actually HURT other people, never cross their mind..

That is what I refer to when I say "traditional teachings".

But let's be clear, the rational and "modern" thinking is not new, and not limited to modern scholars only. Rational thinking has been going on since long ago in the past also. It's just that the traditionalism, the wahabbis, taqleed, grow faster, unfortunately.

Not a matter of become afraid. Its because people come to THINK rationally. Those who salute the suicide bombers, the plane hijackers, they are not thinking, they're just romanticized by the traditional teachings.

No. That is NOT how I define traditional teachings (that it is a "core & foundation of Islam"). I am talking about sects. Don't misunderstand these terms. Its because of misunderstanding like this that people got defensive and die die defend the traditional and taqleed way.

Awesome. You get it. I agree with you. Except the swords thing, I see it more "barbaric".

The problem is, people today refuse to modernize their thinking in many issue because they believe they should go back to the times 1,400 years ago.

When they hear "Islam sesuai dipakai di setiap era / abad", they think it means what was done 1,400 years ago is also 100%, exactly, suitable now. Which is a naive belief.

Modern muslims are NOT trying to change Islam. This is what the traditionalist muslims fail to understand.

Yeah, its right for muslim to kill everyone and destroy the world and conquer the galaxy. It's absolutely right.

Are you stupid, bigoted, or trolling?

Well, please bear my choice of bad words.

That's why I have no desire to discuss with a non-muslim, unless he/she really is open and curious about Islam, and again OPEN. But here I see trolls.

But at the same time, I'm also open. I'm also learning other religions. Only then I can say it's adil, fair.

Like I said before, non-muslims in /k become Islam-hater mostly because of the malaysian govt.

Yes. Exactly what I have been saying.
One can recite the Quran (without knowing the meaning), that's good too. But if one wish to undersatnd the kalamullah, he/she cannot just read the many translations. One need to also study the history of the ayah.

I'll quote myself.

But look what happen in Malaysia? Every Jumaat in khutbah somewhere, talking about yahudi nasrani kafir musuh islam, like they're all bad people and we're all good people.

I disagree with that.

That's how I heard it, because that's how they word it in their khutb text. If they word it the way you did there, I wont interpret (or misinterpret?) it that way.

Unfortunately, me too. And it's not limited to jakim only.. Sad. I love khutbah without text though. Because it's real knowledge, real communication, real message.

Yea, it could be. Maybe, maybe not. There is no way of knowing. There is only believe. That's why it's called belief. When one actually ask for evidence, means they dont understand what is religion, what is faith, what is belief.

The "if there is god, then why bad things happen", is also a naive question. I dont say that in an offensive way. God give us both light and dark.

And calm down, people. Just because some users here use bad words, doesn't always mean butthurt, or an evil person, etc. it's normal.. take a chill pill, will ya? Don't worry too much about "muslim image" in that way.. it's just bad words. Rilek brader!



I dont know if I would use the word "minority". Not sure.

Because many out there are not exactly "concrete with their belief" in that they "wont listen to facts" or on "closed minded", but actually the many out there aren't really interested in this matter. They just want to live a normal life, send their kids to school, eat a sandwhich, and they dont hurt anyone, so just live a normal life. That doesn't mean they "don't want to listen to facts", that is quite ignorant and belittling the muslims in general.

And I also disagree with your last opinion there. You have the image of muslims in general to strongly follow everything, even the ridiculous teachings.

But your kind of opinion is not surprising with the recent voices of the "new-atheist", who are very convinced they are the right one and those who disagree with them means they disagree with facts/science and are therefore stupid.
You asked "should you just believe without evidence". That is totally up to you. If you don't want to, then don't. But do you have to belittle and offend other people's belief? That is what I don't understand with these "new-atheist". Maybe because they are actually "anti-theist".

oh my.. look at my post number..

waalaikumsalam

bukti agenda dajjal untuk menyesatkan freemason

Scientific discoveries has indeed change people's view on certain teachings on certain religions. But not on the core belief on the major religions. Time will tell? Perhaps. Who knows? You definitely don't.

You talked about, and praised one being "open", or "listen", and not "concrete on their belief". Are you so yourself? Seems like you're already concrete on your anti-theism, already have your own definition on Islam. Believing you know Islam more than the muslims in front of you.

They surely cannot proof the non-existence of God, but again, these anti-theists derailing, they keep saying "the burden of proof lies of theists", because they don't realize their anti-theism is also a belief system, an ideology, in some way a religion.


You are punished when the cards are adequately laid on the table and you refuse. Yeah, you can ask Him that. Go ahead.

"Something you don't know". "Know". See how that word different from "believe" and "faith"? I already said this, but....


See what I said? You're the one defining if a muslim is a good muslim or not??

You first say he's not a "true muslim believer", then you say he's a "good muslim". Exactly what Maher said. Budak baru nak belajar atheism, baru tengok show Bill Maher lah ni..haha

Right. The questions that Darkcity212, asked are quite shallow, and have been in talks in many many debates and discussions. That's why I said he's a new comer in this religious debate.

When studying about such issue, we shouldn't be biased on only listen to one side of opinion. Let's listen to the nuance, and use our god given intellect (because taqleed is meaningless). This is very important: intellect.

I think this issue is the same with all other celebrations. A person can believe whatever he/she wants, just that don't enforce your belief on other people. And this has been talked about in this thread during Christmas. You can the previous pages.

We wouldn't know, would we? What is your thought?

come on...

Thats not what I said. You equated "not a true muslim" as a "good muslim". That's also what Maher did.
But now you say good muslim is one with rational thinking. If you read my previous posts before you came, you would know this is what I've been talking about.
Don't worry, I'm not offended by your labelings of good/bad muslims. But it is offensive when you belittle the rational muslims and dismiss the large majority of muslims out there. You didn't say it directly, but I can see it by your style of words. We're not dumb people here, no point kidding..

Okay, you say you're not, then you're not. I take your word for it. But you do share some elements of anti-theism.
Anti-theism differs from atheism in (in a way of many) that atheist don't believe, and so be it. They don't put their own thoughts and actions to the teachings of religions such as having a concrete idea of the teachings of a religion and refuse to listen to the followers of that religion themselves.

If you have your own belief, and that's it, then so be it. But if you come an attack/belittle other people's beliefs/theism, thats how you become anti-theist.



If you really know muslims in LYN at all, you'll see that many of us see what Brunei is doing is oppressive. But you choose to believe that is "real Islam". Therefore you may see Islam = oppressive. I dont know why you choose to believe that is real Islam when many muslims ourselves reject that. It's like what Isaid many time, anti-theists want Islam (or religions) to be bad, they want us to be the villain. Hey, it's called anti-theist for a reason.

Before you make your judgment, learn about the nuances in Islam. That is if you really are keen on listening , open, and not have a concrete opinion on religions. Islam has diverse teachings. We don't have a vatican to decide which is wrong or right. It's a personal choice. I believe Islam don't oppress other religions, as I think thats wrong.



Many beliefs before the evolution of mankind? What are you talking about?

You already said christianity & islam believe in one single creator. Get it? One. Single. Creator. ONE. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? We said ONE, we don't say I have one and you have one, because that's two. Did I just drag myslef to this level? Explaining to a seemingly-anti-theist that 1+1=2 ?

Before you make you judgment, why don't you ask theists? Why just assume our thoughts based on your own projection of our thoughts? I know your post there are full of question marks, but those are rhetoric quetions from you; you already have your idea, you're not really asking. This is why I see many anti-theists are arrogant.



Okay, the most logical to you is aliens. Okay. It's good that you take this stand. You have your belief.

And while you take the chance that its aliens, some take chance that its divinity. Then so be it.

Before I start, the study of origin of life is not "evolution", that the diversity of lifes. Study of origin of life is "abiogenesis". Just for

Okay. I don't dismiss the scientific theories. Such as, I dont say Darwin's as "ah, that is just a theory". But to me, all of these theories and explanations is not definitive in disproving Islam. I haven't put much study into evolution, so I wont reject it now. But this is whole another topic to discuss.

The big bang itself is the start of the "story" scientifically. There's nothing before that. Unexplainable. So that itself is already questionable. Now new theory published that big bang is not the start (duh) that the unverse has always exist.

Islam Christianity and Judaism being Abrahamaic Religions is not a western ideology or labeling. It has already been so since that historical times itself in Judea, Arabia, and even in the time of Muhammad. But I understand why many muslims today strongly oppose the other two and don't want to be associated with them.

Basically the questions all come down to "why make hardship and negativity exist?" Simple. Because life is a test.

No you don't. What you said is 100% NOT my understanding. 100% I have said NOTHING like that at all. And you put those 100% different understanding in my mouth. Haha..typical anti-theist. I dare you to relate any of what you said to what I have ever said. Come on, relate any one. Just one.

Wah, dah lama tak masuk thread ni.. Glancing through few pages back, nampak ada yang post thought-engaging posts, ada mengalukan tetamu, ada yang menolak tetamu, ada yang perangai hipokrit tak hengat, ada yang dabik dada rasa dia saja betul dan suci murni.. hahaha macam2 perangai

ada masa kang, aku try reply/argue/discuss things here

Macam tu lah bila dah label yang non-muslim sebagai "musuh Islam", baca/dengar ayat2 Islam secara literal, bila diorang fikir melawan non-muslim itu bererti berjuang di jalan Allah, bila pemikiran sudah jadi "us vs them",

realitinya, Islam yang di ajar di mainstream Malaysia adalah Islam yang tidak lekang dengan kebencian dan kemarahan, aku tidak terkejut kalau khutbah hari ni pun dok suruh lawan dan tentang orang yang tak sependapat dengan kita (read:traditionalist muslim)

hanya Malaysian yang ada inisiatif mencari ajaran Islam lain (yang tidak mainstream) akan dapat tahu ajaran Islam lain yang lebih harmoni, yang menghormati pendapat orang lain

tak lama dulu ada thread dekat /k, pasal budak melayu, dia pergi rumah jiran, nampak patung berhala (buddha), budak tu terus cakap "syaitan! syaitan!"..

melayu sekarang