Agree, even though there's a lot of moderate (depends on how you define moderate muslim) muslim in Malaysia, the loudest voice comes from the traditionalist muslim.


The same thing with atheists nowadays. There's a lot of atheists who just mind his/her own business, but those anti-theist, and Islam-hater, speaks the loudest.


Yes, we recognize this matter. The reason why we only point out the ones we pointed out (in my case the close-minded traditionalist) is because that's what we want to address, to engage in conversation, to debate. The many rationale and critical-thinking muslim, though I know there are many, I see pass them because I don't think they will bring problems, in fact a solution for harmony and co-existence.

Orang sekarang sudah lupa apa fungsi agama.. Agama sekadar jadi benda yang duniawi, sekadar fizikal dok pi masjid sembahyang, puasa etc.. Bagaikan buat benda2 fizikal ni dah cukup, cukup syarat buat benda wajib. Spiritualnya, dalamannya, batinnya, mungkin hampir kosong.
Pusing2 around elemen2 macam madhab lah, cerita2 "biblical" ni lah, etc. ni salah satu contoh

Banyak slogan2 "bumper stickers" tentang Islam sekarang, yang literally lekat dekat kereta pun banyak. Aku yakin majoriti orang yang dok say these "slogans", don't know what they're talking about. They repeat it because it sounds good. Romanticized. When they never stop, and question those nice "islamic slogans", then its empty words. This "jangan persoal" mentality is making everyone dumb, both in politics and Islam.
So without thinking, they just repeat the slogans, the taglines, the bumper stickers, because it sounds nice. Like zombies. But smiling. Brainwashed.


TLDR: Content is what its all about. Mere shell is meaningless.

This is a respond to thread on RPK just now entitled "Islam is not compatible with Human Rights"

I think it's deleted, but I copied some posts in time..

--

RPK here refer Islam as the man-made istitution which is, of course what we make it. If we make it against today's human right, then it is. If we make it not, it's not. Islam today is what we make it.

When today's muslim read this, we need to be able to distinguish and relate the a) ISLAM that Muhammad brought, and b) ISLAM that has evolved and what it is today.


Instead of spewing the beautiful slogans, it's good if we counter the specific matters.. Such as wife being inferior to husband.. Or punishment to apostates..


especially the abrahamic religions, we are a "supremacist" religions.. but to treat others exactly the same way, I disagree when you say almost impossible.. It probably is if we listen to the extremist teachings..

khutbah tengahari tadi perrrgh, gila penuh negativiti dan indoktrinasi.. aku tahan je..

kenapa laa Islam jadi macam ni sekarang.. kata "Islam itu indah", tapi kat ceramah, khutbah, semua negatif.. haizzz

parents memang sensitif.. ya lah, diorang dah hidup dengan kau berpuluh tahun, tiba2 nak berpisah.. memang lah berat hati..

itu hati. ikut otak pula: kemudian nanti, diorang akan fikir, REALITInya, mestilah setiap anak akan pergi meninggal kan rumah asal.. ini realiti, bukan nak sedapkan hati..

setiap famili pun macam ni bro..

bukan masjid kecik bro.. antara masjid utama Malaysia.. ribuan orang dengar khutbah ni.. harap jangan lah ada yang terikut2 unsur negatif macam tu..
lagi satu, takda kaitan ikut teks atau tak.. malah, aku lagi suka tak payah teks: real.

korang assume khutbah tu takda teks ke? nope, khutbah tu ada teks.. dan lagi sekali, takda kaitan. khutbah berteks pun sama jugak, ikut mentaliti penulis..

entah lah.. orang sekarang suka ucap kata2 indah "bumper sticker", tapi tak pernah fikir balik betul kah? undur, tengok dengar sekeliling, patut macam ni kah? begini kah yang di katakan "indah"?

I hope we all can be better, bagi aku, Islam bukan sepatutnya menerapkan pemikiran penuh negativiti, agresif, dsb.. sebagaimana khutbah yang aku dengar hari tu

^ lol, jangan kena buang penulis khutbah tu sudah..

Kalau tengah bash shia, biasanya akan include bash schools of thought lain2, yang berbeza pandangan.. Yang selalu aku dengar, yang mendefinisi "liberal" dan "pluralisme" yang entah ke laut.

Many, if not majority, of these people who keep repeating the (what I would call) "bumper sticker" slogans, are repeating them because they sound nice, that's all to it.

cis.. mana masjid korang ni? apasal lagi bagus dari masjid besar tempat aku.. haha

lol relax bro.. me, I say, be yourself.. takda masa la aku nak hipokrit.. I just be myself, in this thread, since its about Islam, I will talk about Islam, but in other thread, be it for whatever shit, then I will talk about whatever shit.. I hate hypocrisy. Human beings are colourful, just because we curse in one time, doesn't mean we curse all the time, and vice versa.. we're human, not robot.. I like your opinion on things, keep it up~

LOL.. masih ada yang berfikiran "jangan persoal".. mana kan tidak muslim semakin tertutup otak, kosong intelek. Masih ada yang bertanggapan "mempersoal" itu maksudnya "melawan".. adoyaii..sampai bila..

Mungkin tuhan bagi kita otak untuk belajar membaca saja, lepas tu baca kitab2, cukup, tak payah berfikir.

Adakah ia ke-Islam-an yang benar kalau kita sekadar mewarisi dari nenek moyang? Maksudnya ramai yang Muslim hanya kerana dilahirkan dalam keluarga Muslim, dan bukannya timbul kesedaran dan kepercayaan dari epiphany.

Dari itu aku nampak umumnya Muslim convert ("saudara baru") lebih baik daripada Muslim asal, kerana mereka betul2 percaya, kepercayaan yang lahir dari dalam diri, real iman, bukannya disuruh atau diturunkan dari keluarga..

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Sep 9 2015, 08:56 AM

^ *lebih baik daripada, sorry typo

Sebab itu, epiphany itu penting, kesedaran dari dalam diri, penting.. untuk memastikan ke-islam-an dan ke-iman-an kita jujur dan real..

Untuk timbulnya epiphany, kita mesti mengkaji balik ajaran2 yang kita terima.. Kita perlu persoal. Persoal bukan bermaksud menentang. Persoal itu untuk menguatkan pengetahuan, dan menjujurkan kepercayaan.

Kalau kita sesama Muslim pun "takut" nak persoal, takut nak bincang, kalau ada non-muslim tanya nanti, confirm 100% tak boleh jawab. Macam mana nak dakwah? Mana kan tidak ramai non-muslim yang pandang ringan pada Islam? Lepas tu kita marahkan diorang pulak, padahal kita sendiri yang tak reti nak jawab!

Jangan takut untuk persoal. Kalau betul yakin ia perkara benar, maka sudah tentu jawapan akan timbul walau macam mana persoalan yang diuju. Jadi kenapa takut nak persoal?

Again, mempersoal itu bukan menentang, mempersoal itu untuk menguatkan pengetahuan, real iman.

So the 2 Malaysians who joined (or tried to join) ISIS, got 2 years jail.

Two years jail??

wtf?
sujud sajadah itu sendiri sunat, manakala solat subuh wajib. sujud tu bukan termasuk rukun, dan kita cuma ikut imam. tak baca, jadi batal solat? Doesn't sound right to me..

Agree with aliesterfiend.. it's just a sunat thing, although of course in arabic is the proper way, Allah is kind and knowledgeable to accept it in other than arabic. Is the "sound" more important, or the "meaning"?

Calm down bro..
Yang kau tiba2 bengang sampai nak insult ni apahal? Kita bincang pasal ilmu..ke memang selalu attack orang bila orang lain tak in tuned dengan kau?

certain ayat, baca macam mana pun tone sama saja..

I skipped you guys posts, and read some like below.. I don’t really visit this thread much due to the non-intellectual posts, but just that today got free time at work.. hehe

I do not agree that Quran is suitable for all time in the way it was suitable for Muhammad’s time. Time changes, so should our interpretation of the Quran. And of course, I’m not the only one.

The only reason why so many muslim believe Quran is a suitable for all time, (in a way it was suitable to the time of Muhammad) is because the sentence sounds good. Many muslims believe to many “slogans” without thinking, taqleed. We all know whats the most popular slogan.

I too hate when those clerics, traditionalist muslims, reply without intelligence, such as that ustaz you mentioned.

So the path way many people will go from here is:
a) drop the teaching of the Quran, as it is not suitable in modern times, such as slavery (like you?), or
b) stand with it, but unsure how to answer such critical question, (maybe refuse to answer, maybe agree with slavery like ISIS) like the so many in this thread

Basically adhere to the traditionalist teachings, or apostate altogether. Thing is, many people don’t know another path, c) the idea of reinterpreting the Quran. People who wants Islam to reform, the reformist Muslim. We agree such barbaric things should not be practiced now, but we don’t drop the Quran, we seek way to reinterpret it (no, not changing the text).


Agree with bold. A Quran’s verse must always be related to the context of the time it was brought down to Muhammad. I wouldn’t call this the “easiest route”, but the ONLY route.


I disagree we should keep it casual. We should be comfortable with Islam being diverse, because it is, this is a fact. So some of us are uncomfortable, but we should never shun someone who disagree with us, people from other sect, and only keep this thread for Sunni-Shafie sect. Why are we discriminating, and then we say “Islam is a fair religion”?

Our faith being questioned? This is a big problem in the Muslim community. Why are we so against with being questioned? If we believe we are true, why are we afraid of questions?

So we are incapable of answering everything. Okay, I agree. I am the same. But I think we should answer to our capability, or point out the existence of further information out there outside of lowyat.net.


Yours is probably the best reply to haziq yet.

I agree that we should never be offended when questioned.
When we condemn those who question is shows how cowardice, and shaky our beliefs are to Islam. That is why many people leave Islam. And when they do, we condemn them, as apostate, bla bla, when we were the ones who cannot answer them.

The ustaz (not only in Malaysia, mind you) are traditionalists who do taqleed, and not employ critical thinking. And they are the majority of ustaz out there. So no wonder a lot of muslims are also taqleed muslims, because they listen to only these ustaz.

So I agree strongly when you say go out there, learn more in the internet, because that’s how we get diverse teachings, and judge which ones are rational and good.

So many people say “kena cari (seorang) guru”, or “kau dengar ustaz google buat apa?”. So they believe the few ustaz they listen directly in a masjid, as if the ustaz in masjid can never be wrong, but refuse to turn to the internet, as if the internet is rarely right. Which is very close-minded and narrow, brainwashed.


Agree. but not a ustaz. I suggest go for the international Islamic scholars. It’s easier to find Islamic scholar from the west who think critically, and not follow blindly (taqleed) compared to in Malaysia.

Bukan semua orang nampak "perlunya" nak quote ayat alquran dalam setiap reply jawapan. Kalau itu yang kau percayai, okay lah. Itu kau. Lain orang, lain style.

Kalau kita nak diam, takpe, memang ada baik nya juga. Tapi jangan halang orang bertanya, jangan halang orang persoal, jangan halang orang cuba jawab. <-- Speaking in general.

Kalau tak setuju dengan jawapan orang, bidas. Kalau taknak, betul la; diam saja.

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Feb 15 2016, 05:20 PM

So are you trying to say that the Quran should be viewed and employed today the exact same way it was in the 7th century?

What do you think? We, today, can enslave other people?

If that is your definition of slavery, then that's totally fine. But know that it is totally different from what the tradition of Islam meant by slavery.

Other people understand too. They just don't see a way out, or a way to maneuver. It's black and white to many. Believe the ustaz (traditionalist), or not = apostate.

Yes, credit to seiferalmercy. We can easily see people who have honest questions and critique like haziq, and others who are clearly Islam-hater who believe they know Islam more than Muslims, thus proceed to put words in Muslims' mouth since they want Islam to be the evil.


Iktiraf because it was the lifestyle then. Liquor was perfectly fine too until some point (another example showing Islam do evolve, even in the time of Muhammad), and some say only wine was forbidden but that's another story. Today, in 2016, there's no way we can be enslaving people. (omg, are we really at this level?)