I recently came across this group called CAPITAL ASIA GROUP, anyone heard of it before?

Anyone heard of crud oil investment?

would like to know more about it before investing in them.

so if anyone have any or some kind of knowledge about it, please share.

would very much like to hear your point of view before making any wrong moves.

Very much appreciated.

Candice Lee joined Capital Asia Group Malaysia in May 2011, in the newly created role of Sales Director. Candice is responsible to lead the CAGM Regional Office to build the reputation, leading the business strategy for the marketing and product strategy for brand. Candice brings high-level organizational and experience-based leadership to the company.
Candice's primary independent financial background has been grown from her three years experience in Prudential Assurance Singapore. Candice is an independent financial consultant in one of top IFA firm in Singapore. Tough, bold and passion has been motivated Candice departed Singapore to set up her consultant businesses in Malaysia and verified her endeavor by being selected as a speaker for the Malaysia Young Female Entrepreneurs (MYFEN) 2010 in Kuala Lumpur.
Highly enthusiastic in building her growth in company business, Candice has been featured in media in Malaysia such as Entrepreneurs Expose, New Straits Times, Berita Harian and SME Magazine. Candice's passion in building and growing business has been with her for long.
To Candice, in the world of entrepreneurship, you do not need a degree or master; you need a PHD - Pain, Hunger and Desire!

I read your post for few times, yet, I can't find any word written by you that could provide me a direct or indirect answer to TS's initial post.

Who is Candice Lee?

Best way for you to learn more is to attend a session. One is coming up on coming Wed in Subang Jaya. Come with a list of questions and satisfy yourself before you part with your money.

thanks for all the reply.

at this moment, everything is still very much unclear.

prefer to have more insight before attending the seminar.

Thanks

I've got more than 30MB of presentation files in my dropbox. If you are interested, PM me and I will point you to the link.

It seems CAG is a fund raising entity of another fund raising entity, Proven Oil Asia. Other companies in S'pore also works with CAG/POA, Infinity Treasures, Shenton Energy Asia. In Europe, their partner is POC (Proven Oil Canada). All of them r fund raiser for a privately held oil company called Conserve Oil Corp (COC) based in Alberta - POC/POA r actually 100% subsidiary of COC. no idea how CAG/Infinity/Shenton strucutures with POA.

POC also has interesting history n controversies of its own. reported by german's businessweek

http://www.wiwo.de/finanzen/boerse/wiwo-bl...il/7924586.html
http://blog.wiwo.de/betriebssystem/2013/01...n-oil/#more-177

got into court cases with POC. interesting enough, an investor protection law firm has this to post as part of the their service

http://www.resch-rechtsanwaelte.de/C-1214-...Oil-Canada.aspx

derive ur own conclusion n investigate further.

can i have the link as well?

Recently my friend met me and introduced this. I am wondering will this be another big scam project?

She behaves this way, and most forumers know about her/him. You may ignore him/her.

Do you smell scam in this? Please elaborate...

My friend approached me as well... She said everything is black and white stated in the agreement in term of withdrawal of money after invest... I haven't invest yet so haven't got a chance to look at the agreement... Was wondering about this company earlier as well...

everything was in proper, including agreements, data sheet etc... like well planned.

no body knows..

I'm confused. Everything in order and you feel it is a well-planned scam? And with some well-known third party names like Schlumberger, KPMG, etc...

Well, only time can tell...

Their Malaysian office is in Mont Kiara, their HQ is in Singapore.

The Oil Investment is their 2nd project. Their first project & still on-going is a housing development project in Hawaii; Aina Le'a.

CAG is basically just a marketing company, marketing & selling (of course) "alternative" investments vehicles. Basically their clients need funds, so they created a creative means to raise funds.

I can't tell whether scam or not, but I did my homework & you should too before making a decision.

From the ways you asked and responsed, you must be one of their representatives or agents or related to.

I'm a participant in the program.

Just sharing but Caveat emptor. Let the buyer be aware.

I'm invested in it. Just got my return last 2 days.

Me too got my return of 3% per quarter. Silver Malaysia is selling this scheme for POA. You can find detail here. http://www.silvermalaysia.com/index.php/buy/crude-oil. Whether it is scam or not I am not sure but I putting small money to test it out. I think a lot of people worry it to be another Geneva!

Dunno what is written there as it is in German. You can read German?

yeah.. just diversify money away.. 12% per annum is cool

I've done my study the business model is totally different with Genneva..

ps:lucky I didn't invested in Genneva

A lot of my friend still skeptical and use the wait and see approach...

so much of glaring loose threads...

seriously, what homework u all do?

provided sites all foreign language, trustee unknown, etc... is the johnathan quek fella involved in this or wat?

no one askin right question like is this malaysian ministry approved, etc?

12% a year damm attractive... but wheres the assurance?!

you should study the company in canada, conserve oil corporation. ask auditor and valuer report from them or any relevant documents.

sitting in front of computer and searching internet doesn't help.

this investment is not governed by malaysia because we are buying physical crude oil. FYI, sc and ssm only governs on paper assets such as bonds, equities, unit trust.

the assurance that convinced me was the collateral is pledged under trustee. what come to worse, at least my capital is always guaranteed.

at least my capital is always guaranteed. > omg. such a loaded statement. firstly, trustees just oversee the redistribution of funds - if its done at a loss, makes no matter to them as they have no obligations whatsoever. they oni obliged 2 step in event close shop, etc. collateral is based on valuation. still need willing buyer 2 actually buy it for said price. if got any incident which cause these event - logiclah it will also affect the price of the colateral.

secondly, the valuers themselves are who actually? if 2 firms perform audit/valuation = both will have differing findings & can/will try to base their findings on 'prevailing trends' to justify their valuation.

thirdly, who r the trustees ah? is it some well known big time bank... or just some unknown/new 'third party'... seriously, how to know they will be objective when makin decisions if it ever come 2 pass?... shell corporations are a dime a dozen... funnel $ in, then k, thx, bye... bernie maddoff collected(stole!) us 18 billion and ran his scheme for nearly 20 - 40 years before he was found out... same style as this investment 2 > promise big return, give big return for the initial period ($ come frm the new goldfish who 'invest') & he did it till he finally got caught. actually, if u refer the case, u can also see the point i made above about 'trustee vaulation'... us federal investigators say stolen amount amounted to usd 45 billion, but court appointed trustee say amount is usd 18 billion... thats a huge difference!!!... who lah can main agak agak wid usd 27 billion...

if dun sit front of computer & main main keyboard 2 cari info - then either nt makin an informed decision to invest or the lack of info means sumtin is wrong/deliberately being hidden/misleading. either way, choosing to invest in a company thats nt transparent about its info/project is very scary.

i dun wanna end up wakin 1 day 2 hear these guys ciow/close shop... even if can recover $, its gonna b a long affair.

& still so may q's unaswered - wat is johnathan quek's involvement in this if any? bernie madoff used 2 be the non exec chairman of nasdaq... and look wat hpnd 2 him!!!

i hope that by askin questions - it can help me confirm if i really wanna invest... 12% a year is syiok gila... so any1 gt anwers/counterpoints 2 my statements here, pls reply so 2gether we can make a wise decisions. tq.

fyi > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

What I know Jonathan Quek also invested in it. He is one of the client too. Again what I heard he invested quite heavily so he did a due diligence went to Canada to find out himself whether this is a scam or not? You get better info by attending their talk and can pose whatever question you want. If you worry too much don't invest few hundred thousand but just RM5,000 can start already. To me if it really turn up to be scam at least you minimize the risk of capital lost.

agreed to escargo75

you may attend their seminar ask whatever tricky questions u can at there

leceh go 4 lecture... if company is serious... i feel must have good website

anyway, where is their ofis?

In plaza mont kiara. You should go if you are serious to find out more.

just to share ok.. no intention to saboh other ppls biz. In Hong Kong, even for 2%-3% return per annum peoples will Q up day and night to invest in it. Reason is because HKD is tied up to USD so the interest rate from the bank is like 0%. Hk peoples loves to invest. But Hk investor is very smart peoples in Hk you can invest for everything. Its a very mature market for investor. For 12% per annum if they are looking for investor, why don't they do it here in HK? Just wonder. Maybe I can be their agent here in Hk IF everything is legal. I do know a lot of wealth peoples in Hong Kong.

John

Go and pm jonathan quek
The lady is his gf anyways.
Find his profile in fb

so long no new posts... wat happened?

turn out 2 be scam rite?

bro, the company still operating. i just went there yesterday

how? can beleif ah their claims?

did theys show u real evidence? or oni got veri smooth conman talk?

share xperiens pls

Hi,

May I ask what "real evidence" you want to see?

website, press clipping, annual report, etc!!!

no blady decent info for this 'projek' online...

no figures, or audited data... can say summore, '"We do not invest on gut feelings but rely on hard facts."... THEN SHOW THE HARD FACTS LAH... mana audited earnings data for the previous 4 projek.. where is ur annual audit report...

if i laucnhin sumtin good.. sure i want world 2 know... even geneva had better marketin n promo than these fellas

does nobody else feel da fact they keep launchin new projek is a huge red flag warning ah???

feel like they launch projek 2 simply so can colect $ & pay 'dividen' to ppl who buy in projek 1... then launch projek 3 so can pay 'dividen' to ppl who buy in projek 2... THIS IS A CLASSIC PYRAMID SCHEME MODEL... DO U KNOW HOW DANGEROUS THIS IS?!

see example:

projek 1: collect 100%, pay dividend 12%, total baki for company is 88%
projek 2: collect another 100%, pay dividend 24% (12% for projek 1 + 12% for projek 2), total baki 176%
projek 3: collect another 100%, pay dividend 36% (12% each for projek 1,2 & 3), total baki 264%

if like this, this fellas can keep collectin $ wid launch of new 'projek' bcoz ppl will recomend them thinkkin they actuall makin money... but if scam, they can just close shop n run away weneva they want... if they do like this for 5 projeks or 5 years, they wudda made 88% * 5 years = 440% of collected investors money... until i c actual recognised auditors report bout their cash flow, annual earnings, etc... i find it damm suspicious...

CAGOM has a charge on POA's identified oil fields and will only market up to the worth of the charge, thus protecting your dollar for dollar. > wat does this even mean? insurance? reserve trust? auction?... if event of liquidation, still need willing buyer wat... if not state clearly in public record where the 'bailout' $ is comin from & provide the necessary docs 2 substantiate it!

i wan 2 hear frm ppl who bought this... how u base ur decision & wat proof got 2 back it up

I'm a newbie in this crude oil thing. Having invested in some land bankings and properties (still waiting for my fruits after 6 yrs), 12% per annum GUARANTEED returns seems a bit OTT.

Lets do some simple calculations: (#invest;#ROI)
1) RM100; ROI RM12/year or RM1/mth
2) RM100k; ROI RM12k/year or RM1k/mth
3) RM1mil; ROI RM120k/year or RM10k/mth

If I do not have cash, I loan from bank at max 8% per annum. I still get 4% per annum in returns without any money down. Good deal?

If it is GUARANTEED, why the company wants to seek public's money to invest? Is it because they could not get the loan from the bank because of the risk is too high?

Maybe I've missed out something, but it is a food for thought.

Also, I questioned about about the income tax on our ROI the sales director said no need declare at first. Then I asked what if my ROI is significant, example invest 2mil, and yearly I get RM240k. I got the answer, get a good accountant. Which is true...

But what bugs me is when the money channels into this investment company in Msia, it will surely channel into each and every investor's account. The crumps are there for IRB to hunt us down.

Therefore I need to learn more from the gurus here.

some dam good pints here. especially the 1 bout securin back loan and cag savin itself 4% roi a year... why dun do that?... who can answer... wud luf 2 hear

also, the point bout nt declarin rev for taxation & comment bout gettin good accountant = seriously wth?!!... i hear comment like tat it shows non professional org or conman scheme who cannot be bothered by such things as they long ciow b4 that... damm fishy

answers/commenst/feedback anyone?

ps: tq cwhyoo!

high risk high gain, low risk low gain.
3% FD reward = PIDM protect which almost = risk free
8% Personal loan from back = risk of u cabut
12% return = 12% risk of cabuting
genting 50% gain = 50% lost (big small)
toto jackpot 40mil times gain = trillion risk of losing your RM1

guarantee risk free investment? i never believe in tat. but we can never stop some1 from buying toto even you know the winning chance is 0.00000000000000001 %

This post has been edited by klthor: Dec 16 2013, 02:18 PM

FD protection is up to certain limit only. I'm referring to big sum. If there's bank run, good luck 2 u!

If want windfall but cannot afford, this is what we can do. Save Rm1- on a daily basis into a piggy bank. Anytime u feel like it, crash it open - viola! Windfall! This method chance is 100%, I tell you!

pidm i think 200k?

i dun like the concept of foreign investment, becoz we do not know their laws and regulation. and their news will reach us very slow, i mean those public info. proxy/trustee, like other former said, who are them? well known ppl like obama, osama(oops hes dead) as ur trustee or just the guy next door? 12% guarantee return? in USD ar? or in RM? why they can guarantee? are you sure they can guarantee if sudd RM rise like rocket and trade 1usd to rm2? are they still able to maintain 12% return?

as i said earlier, we cant stop ppl from investing but i aint going to put my hands in these. i rather go to toto, spend RM1 and dream i can hit jackpot and become 20mil richer.

is this kind of investment legit? got some relatives wanna borrow me some money, can get 3% monthly. I've been searching in Google but cannot get a clear view of this.

Here you can find some read up on the crude oil investment... http://www.silvermalaysia.com/index.php/buy/crude-oil

Let's continue to debate

More info on COC and POC....

http://www.conserveoilcorporation.com/home.html

http://www.proven-oil-canada.de/start.html

More read up here...

http://cbbworldwide.com/how-to-earn-12-p-a...ital-protection

Just to answer your question about Hong Kie investment, already got consultancy company at Macau/HK luring Macau/HK investors so you are too late

http://www.ltcc.biz/en/services/immediate-...flow-investment

If this Crude Oil is a scam I feel ok because this will be the biggest scam that will involve many peoples around the world and not limit to Malaysia only. Yeah, I think I am kind of stupid to think that way. Is like got so many peoples dies together with me is OK lah.... Check out the Capital Asia scam that involve so many countries...

http://www.capitalasiagroup.com/main.php

thanks for the link bro!

hongkies got many rich people, usually they will do CIES.

What is CIES?

You can keep on buying your Toto because it will never hit!! Come to think about it why i still buy it also hoping to hit the $21 mill SUPREME haha

ops, my bad, this is for non-hongkies to invest in HK, sorry.


The Capital Investment Entrant Scheme (“CIES”)

In 2003 The Capital Investment Entrant Scheme (CIES) was launched by the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) Government. This scheme aims to facilitate the entry for residence through capital investment into permissible assets without the need to establish or join in a business.

yep i also keep buy and dream. treat these types of investment as toto jackpot, dun put in ur life saving into it.

Based on the info provided in the website, I can't find any fault in the arrangement. Looks like it is a very thoroughly thought of financial plan to attract investors. However, that leads me to ask the question. At 12% pa, why would the company failed to get financing from financial institution ? If you consider they have to appoint agents to market for them, their borrowing cost could go up to 15% (?). It would be much simpler to get financing from 1 bank/consortium of banks instead of managing thousands of investors. The only logical answer I can think of (and ASSUMING it is a legitimate investment) is it is a very high risk business. Even at 15%, banks refuse to get involve

BTW, anybody knows how much the agent earn from recruiting ?

To answer your question why not get loan from bank? You know bank loan will take time to approve and also disburse money slowly and not at one shot. It is just like any company who want to get capital for their business they can either get bank loan or attract investor aka share holder. So you buy the company share and give them your money without the bank red tapes.

Why so many companies get funding from share holder instead of get it from bank? It is fast right? So since COC is not a public listed companies (you can read all the websites) so they cannot issue shares for the general public but use other methods to get funding if they don't go to bank, make sense?

By the way, how do you know bank lending rate at Canada is not more than 12%? I don't know but I think you can find out yourself.

You call buying Toto Jackpot as investment? My God....

Yes bank takes time. But this scheme has been >1 year since the launch. And they are still recruiting. Even Malaysian banks does not take >1 year to process loan. You really think Canadian banks are that inefficient ?

What is Canadian bank interest rates ? I put the link of BOC overnight rates below. The benchmark rate remains at 1% since 2010. Hope you know how to estimate the rate for business loan from there

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bank-of-ca...-at-1-1.2450462

what I mean is I treat this type of investment (capital asia) like buying toto jackpot, that is gamble.

basic finance

1st equity return is always higher than bank borrowings interest rate. so theres no chance bank lending is over 12%.
2nd funding from shareholder takes even more time than getting loan approval from banks.

with FOREX risk on the boat and still able to guarantee 12% return pa, seems fishy to me.

This post has been edited by klthor: Dec 27 2013, 12:44 AM

It is really up to you whether you want to think that way or not but I will not spend my time convincing you to invest in it. If you think it is a scam then it is a scam. To me it is not, that's it.

You can do your due diligence and at the end of the day it is you who pay for it so you can have your opinion that's fair.

If you read the link that I provided, you can find the answer there. For the benefits of all, I will tell you why. The scheme is more than 1 year because there is more than 1 project or oil rigs. It will continue to go on as long as there is new oil rigs.

The mis-conception of the promised ROI is that it is base on lock down period of two years. After the expiry of two years the rate of return might change. I am not financial expert like you all but simple layman and every opportunity do come with risk. If we are looking for almost zero risk investment you can invest in FD.

If you feel that this is risky just put small portion of your wealth in it and see how it goes. People also say investing in gold is highly rewardable but if you bought the gold at the $1,800 per ounce, you must be cursing. In investment it is all about timing, risk ratio and off-course gut feeling. If your gut feeling is not good, I would not waster my time even to consider it. One good example is Forex trading because to me i think you cannot beat the big shark unless you are extremely good....

I have read the link many times but it does not explain why they resort to capital market instead of leveraging. There are many other projects/business that last >1 year and FYI there are also many debt instruments that cater to the needs of various types of project/business of different time line. There must be some reasons/constraints/purpose they are willing to pay 12%-15% instead of getting cheaper funding via leveraging. We are talking about extra ~10% pa here. If they borrow US$100m, then that is extra US$10m cost per year

Ask yourself. If you have a viable business which needs funding. Will you go to the 1 bank that charge you 5% or will you go to find thousands of investors who you need to pay them 12%-15% ?

Anyway, good luck in your investment

This post has been edited by Showtime747: Dec 27 2013, 11:08 AM

I think what you are talking about is conventional investment or asset class. This is alternative investment class. I have to agree with you that it does not make sense (base on conventional thinking) that why not borrow from bank. You can find out the answer from the company who sell this scheme or you can just ignore it thinking that it is another Geneva. Well nobody will know until things happen.

There are a lot of alternative investment around lately and have you heard of bird nest scheme? This scheme is approved by the government but again a lot of skeptic who doubt the return and the picking up rate is not as fast as I would thought.

Most human are skeptics and will go for the safe investment like FD, unit trust, bonds, etc but slowly for sure I think this scenario will change.

I remember Conrad once said that unit trust investment is rubbish as you paid a lot of fees and the best class of investment is still buying stocks - well everyone know why he said that. In every business there are tricks involved so they will not tell you everything - so the reasons they are not telling is either it is scam or it is trade secret. It depends how you see it and those who succeeded deemed as innovator and those who failed a fool.

I remember reading Uncle Lim's biography about his vision dream of building a casino on a hill. i think most people doubt it can be done and plenty said that it will fail but viola!!

Sorry gone out of topic but it is good that someone has open some questions that if I have opportunity will ask next time but not sure they will answer. Is like my friends many time asked me you want to jump or not and no time to tell you why just do it!!

There is no such thing as conventional or unconventional investment. Whatever fancy name the promoter may call the investment, be it alternative investment, new era investment, hybrid investment etc, eventually it is all about dollar and cent. Changing a name does not alter the objective of any business, which is "making profits". If the business is capable of borrowing at 5.0%, they won't borrow at 5.1%

It is all about level of risk. As said, if the banks don't want to take up the risk, there are many others like you who are willing to. There are always people who are willing to tolerate more risk than a bank. The business just need to raise the returns high enough to lure investors in. In this case, it is 12%

I have to agree with you on this. If the bank cannot tolerate the risk does not mean that it is a scam. There might be other reasons that you and me do not know. It is just like one bank willing to offer loan to a borrower vs another bank who is not willing, so can you say that the borrower is fishy and the bank that do not offer the loan make a wise decision?

It is all about your evaluation and your risk appetite and there is no right or wrong just whether at the end of the day who make the money. It is not about how right or wrong are you but how much you can take risk to achieve something bigger.

Yes, if 1 bank refuse, but the other bank willing to offer loan to a borrower, then I don't think the borrower is fishy.

But if all banks also not willing to offer loans to a borrower, and the borrower has to find investors and pay them 12%, will you say the borrower is fishy now ?

yes, veri fishy.

moni is moni - if got viable biz plan sure bank will do risk anaylsis n then decide base on it.

so if bank decline - def got reason.

anyway, we all talkin as if c.a.g when 2 bank & apply 4 loan & got rejekted... mayb/prob got do nuthin like that in the first place as it is a scam & r waitin 4 ppl 2 'invest' b4 ciow... who know?

each time got good qustion ask ere - get sum 'dunno, dun care, dun wanna disclose, secret secret' answer here... how da hell wan 2 invest if atutude like that... mana transparensi?... wan 2 take my money, but dun wanna answer my kwestion ah?

Can anybody provide any details about this?

they hv a seminar which intrested ppl boleh attend...

It is very simple why some companies, choose to use private investors to fund their projects instead of banks.

Most of the time, there are 3 ways, in which the company can raise capital.

1) Debt financing (bonds, loans from bank etc)
2) Equity financing (stocks)
3) Private Investments

Borrowing from banks belongs to the first category which is debt financing. You must first understand that in order for banks to loan you the money, the waiting period is usually up to 6 months. Furthermore, even if you have Fixed Assets (such as land) to offer to the company as collaterals, usually the LTV ( Loan to value) for such investments is not as high. Usually around 40%. Which means even if you have a collateral which is valued at 10 million, banks would only loan 4 million to you. The bank interest rates for such investments, is also slightly higher at 5-7%.

Given these circumstances, it is easy to see why some companies turn to private investors such as this for capital. 1) The time period for approval in which they can actually get the funds or capital is significantly faster than the bank. Secondly they are able to offer their collateral to investors for value to value, which means that if that if the collateral is valued at 10 million, they can raise up to the amount. '

Thus, even if they have to pay a higher rate of returns back to the investor, they can get the money to invest faster, and in higher amounts, than compared to what they can get from the banks

Obviously you have no experience with big corporate loans. If all information is available for bank's consideration, 3 months duration is possible. And what collateral you want for US$100m corporate loans ? Banks look at the viability of the business, more than collateral. If your business is viable, even if there is no collateral, the bank will provide loans. If you business is not viable, even if you have 100% collateral, banks will ask you to fly kite.

BTW, LTV is a term for consumer property loan. For corporate loans, we dont use such term

1. Look at the time needed for CAG needed to raise financing. Until today they are still taking money from "investors". How many YEARS has it been raising capital ? As compare to bank's MONTHS ?

2. What collateral did CAG offer to investors ? None That could be the reason why bank REFUSED to loan because the risk is too high even for 12% the company willing to pay. Bear in mind banks' other loan is offered only at around 5%



The bottom line is CAG's business is so risky that it failed to get loans from banks, have to pay >12% interest to lure in "investors", and has to take ages to raise financing (what a pity until today they still need to do "marketing" on the forum)

great reply.

manyak informative.

so how... any more cag rep here wanna dare answer back?

open forum... let ppl know. nuthin 2 b afraid if good product mah

1) Okay... First of all, I am sure you do not have experience with corporate loans. Irregardless of whatever business model they are using or how viable it is, banks will ONLY loan you a puny amount of money. Furthermore, banks DO NOT look at future potential when they decide a loan. They will only consider factors, such as current earnings, liabilities, fixed assets etc, and in return you get a puny amount of loan, with high interest rates. Therefore, CAG or the company they are representing , COC, will never be able to raise as much as they can from the private investors. The company they are representing, which is COC, is not a huge multibillion company, it is just a SME producing oil, therefore, it is impossible to get anywhere near what you mentioned in your post. Simply raising funds through private investors, allow them to raise a significantly larger amount, and allows them to expand their business.

2) COC, actually pledged a separate producing oil field as a collateral to CAG. Furthermore they are only allowed to raise the amount of funds to the value of the oil field itself. Lets say the oil field is valued at 10 million, they are only allowed to raise up to 10 million, in which the project will be considered closed, and a new one will begin. Thus in the event of a default the trustee company holding the land, will come in auction off the piece of land, and the investors will have first charge to it. Thus in a way your capital is somewhat secured.

i can explain why genneva failed tho. Although it is not really a scam.

Basically, a short summary is this. You invest money to buy physical gold, and they give you a 3% rate of return per month. At the end of your term of contract, you have 3 options. Either you 1)Keep the gold 2) sell the gold back to genneva 3) reinvest your money

Basically, the idea is that they are speculating on gold prices to remain or keep going up, and people reinvesting their money. Basically if gold prices remain the same or keep rising, everything is good and all, and there is no problem at all.

However, if gold prices drop, investors will lose their money. This is because genneva could no longer afford the payout they agreed on. But wait, you have the gold you buy as a collateral in the event of a default! However, this is far away from the truth, as their is a clause in the contract that says that genneva has no obligations to buy back the gold, thus the investor is forced to either keep the gold, or sell the gold in the primary market at a much lower price. Thus either way, they lose their money.

I was in corporate banking line for many years and my job was to arrange corporate loans for companies. I even arrange syndicated loans (if you have heard of it before) involving many banks (yes, banks do spread their risk among themselves too) to the tunes of hundreds of millions. I guess that is "a puny amount" to you

Banks don't look at the future potential ? It just showed that you have only encountered consumer property loans and credit cards. You are right for consumer banking though. But in corporate loans, future earnings are the primary concern. Banks assess the risk of a business by looking at how viable the business is. In business, past experience, although important as a gauge, does not guarantee that the business will be as profitable in the future. It is therefore important for the bank to assess the future earnings because it is where the borrowers get the money to pay interest to the banks

As opposed to consumer loans like property and credit cards, your current salary is the most important gauge of your future earning potential. If you have a job now that pays a salary of $5k, that means it is most likely you can earn the equivalent or more in the future. Even if you lose your job now, you can most probably find another job from other companies. But in business, if it fails, the income stops and there is no "other employers" that you can earn your money from. So, consumer banking and corporate banking is very different. I can see why you believe they are the same because you have only dealt with your own property and credit cards loans and assume it is the same way in corporate banking. No, it is not.

I am alarmed you said CAG is a "SME" when you are talking about tens or even hundreds of millions. Even if it is a SME, banks will still extend loans. In fact, SME accounts for a significant part of banks' corporate business. And there is no such thing as bank extend only a portion of loans applied. If it is the case, then SME can never grow.

Please do not blindly accept what CAG throw at you. Think logically and critically why a company doesn't resort to a cheap loan instead of paying 12+% interest. It is all about risk transfer. High risk high return. Low risk low return. There is no free lunch in this world. Except from your parents

Wow ! The fact that you think Genneva is not really a scam shows that you are just another greedy "investor" that can't think logically. Blinded by the attractive returns and willing to spread unfounded lies to justify your own investment decision. Now I understand why you think CAG is a good investment

Irregardless, the bottom line is that banks will never loan out as much as the private investors do. Somewhere down there is that they believe that getting more money from private investors and paying a higher interest rate, or rate of return, offsets the benefits of a corporate loan by a bank, which is simply lower interest rates, which is not that low in the first place. If you are really in the corporate banking line, you must understand that this is the natural energy business, which doesnt really fit the portfolio of business from banks in the first place. And if you are saying that the bank is willing to take the risk and loan up to the value of the company itself, then I have nothing to say. I have never heard of banks loaning that much, syndicate or not.

In the league of big oil companys, the company CAG is representing, COC, is really not that big at all. It is somewhat around the top 20 small-medium size oil companies in canada.

Please, understand more about the structure and the organizations involved, before you make a valued judgement on the benefits of a bank loan vs raising capital from investors.

First, genneva is NOT a ponzi scheme. They are simply speculating on gold prices, in which the gold is used as a collateral in the case of a default. I dont see why it is a scam, if investors in the business understand their business model, and decide that they are willing to speculate that gold prices will continue rising, and understand the risk and loss of capital that they are undertaking when gold prices fall.

I feel like talking to a brick wall

Anyway, it is your money. If you feel the "investment" is worth while, just like you feel "Genneva is not a scam", then by all means go ahead and "invest" more. I am not your father and you will be responsible for your own action.

Likewise, the readers who seek info about CAG here will judge for themselves and decide whether CAG is a worthwhile "investment"

Good luck to you

So please explain to me, how is genneva a scam? Its just an investment that is speculating on gold prices. Thats all. They are actually selling and buying a physical gold.

A real scam would be something like an empty investment with no real investment taking place. They would promise a high rate of returns, and in return use new investor's money to pay their said interest, basically a ponzi scheme, and the whole scheme falls apart when there are no new investors left to sustain it. NOW THAT IS A SCAM.

And, since you said you had years of corporate experience, I would really love to know, how much said bank is really willing to loan. Because from what I understand from some of my friends in corporate banking, there are many other factors, which decide how much a bank is willing to loan. And sometimes banks dont even take land as a collateral, or as consideration as part of a loan. And so far, energy business, is not really the domain or area of expertise in the bank, and they would have to employ external evaluators. I would really like to know more about this information. Because from what I understand and heard, banks here in Singapore, dont even loan more than 400k-600k for SME, and they have to have good standing credit and various factors to be even considered for a loan.

Ask your question here. You will have more fun in that thread. Make sure you don't chicken out

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2666347

In your first post here, you sound so confident about bank loan. How come suddenly you ask so many questions (some are dumb questions, no offence) on corporate banking which clearly show you knew nothing about corporate banking ? Seems that you were just blowing water on your first post

Again, please start a thread on corporate banking in FBI. This thread is about CAG and has nothing to do with educating newbie on corporate banking

And you clearly avoided the most important question. Which is the amount that a bank is willing to loan, will never be close to what is possible to raise through private investors.

Friend, I have answered in my previous reply. Bank will loan you the amount you wanted if your business is viable. But you chose not to believe because it contradicts the answer you want. That's why I said I feel like talking to a brick wall

Go and ask your bosses in Canada why they failed to get cheaper loans from bank and have to resort to >12% loans from investors. Or they are just some kind hearted people who's objective in their life is to "help" people ?

Wow, it is so funny to read all this.... I am from germany and here, Proven Oil Canada and Conserce Oil Corporation is hardly discussed.
Maybe you like to hear, that there was no 3% Payment in December for german investorts. COC and POC blame the spread btw WTI and WCS for that.

There are also a lot of business magazines and forums, which write really critical about this investment. So be careful and do not believe everything you were told. Make your own logical and healthy decisions.

gutentag!

wat is the mags & other forums u talikn bout that talk bad bout this cag/coc/poc?

i wud like to see for myself. pls give url if got. danke!

ps: showtime, u keep up ur gud work man!

Guten Tag (so you write it right)

Of course you can have the links, but do you speak german?? But ok, here they are.

www.wiwo.de (serveral articels, just type in proven oil canada into the search)
http://www.wallstreet-online.de/diskussion...n-oil-canada-ii

There was also an article in Fonds&Co, but i am not shure if it it online or if it was just print.

You can also use the search at www.gomopa.net, but there you have to pay to read all the articles and the forums.

How come I have not seen you posting your question in the thread I refer you to ? Chicken out ? Or have you finally realised genneva is in fact a scam ?

Just curious, are you an ex-agent from genneva now switch job to sell CAG ? The way you spoke about genneva, high chance you were one of those unscrupulous genneva agent

You are discussing Genneva, but you just have to goggle... And you´ll find this for example:
http://www.cad.gov.sg/content/cad/en/faq/c...va-pte-ltd.html

If this would happen in germany (i mean an investigation), nobody would ever invest in this company again.
.

Buddy, our friend Kaji2g is not convinced genneva is a scam and wants me to prove to him And I have directed him to a thread discussing about genneva https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2666347 But he chicken out

Some people don't want to know or don´t want to see. same in germany... You can say or write what you want...
For those guys i have just the words: invest there. But can also burn your money instantly. Effect is the same. Money is gone

I think some of these "investors" are really "wolves in investors' clothing" else WHY the heck would investors advise others to invest based on "greed & hope" VS "cow sense & logic"?

Edu-tainment way to market BS (Genneva v1 and v2, now this)?

Of course you can have the links, but do you speak german?? > nein!

but danke very much... i sure that u wud hv read the articles written by proper authorities in germany & based on it, ur sayin they r kritikal of dis investment... thats all i need to know... so danke again... if i meet u in oktoberfest, i buy u beer & schneitzel coz u have saved me lot of $... prost!